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Author Topic: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!  (Read 8094 times)

dr croubie

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2012, 04:47:10 AM »
I am still getting tired though, of the "it doesn't matter what camera you have" crap.  Yes it does.  If it didn't you wouldn't see arguments about the lack of features on the 6D, you wouldn't see the D800 threads, and you certainly wouldn't be buying a 1DX.  Why don't we all go buy 20D's, a nifty fifty, have dinner together with candlelight and wine, and then go for an evening walk holding hands?  Afterall, we have all we need!!

Isn't there a difference between art and hobby too?  I doubt everyone that holds a camera aims to be considered an artist. Art is sure an odd thing to define these days. I guess I'm just a bit confused by what mr Rockwell was venting about, can't you create better art if you know how to use your tools and having better equipment? Would we have the Mona Lisa if you had only a cave wall and finger paint? Pretty sure you need talent and tools to create art. Maybe photography gets a bad rap because its easy and very accessible to take a photo with today's technology I'm sure there's plenty of people painting things that people may not classify as art but I bet those kindergartener's parents would love their painting! Sure you designed and built a magnificent building but I bet I could take a cool photo of it that would outlast the lifespan of the building. I'd say enjoy what you do and create, I'm sure there's someone that will enjoy what you made and if you want expensive tools to create what you want more power too ya! I love cameras and photography and I hope I have many different cameras, lens, photographs that will be with me till I die!


You're both right, and so is Ken.
Gear helps, but it's not the be-all and end-all that some people make it out to be. Artistic vision helps too. I think Ken's biggest problem is with the people who don't have any 'artistic vision', and yet claim they do.
(my biggest problem is with people who take photos of boring everyday objects with their phones, run it through some standard filter, put a fake Polaroid border around it, post it to BookFace, and think they're artists. Holgas are cheap, and you can get expired film from ebay for $2 a roll, if you want pics to look like that. They don't make you an artist either though [/rant] )

Personally, i've never called myself an Artist. Hell, I hesitate to call myself a 'photographer'.
If anything, i'm a guy who gets paid waaay too much for the amount of work he does, which gives me the money, time, and boredom to sit and buy more and more lenses (and recently, film bodies) off ebay.

Problem is, I do have atistic visions sometimes. For example, the weekly (monthly?) assignments at TDP. This (and most) times, I read the assignment and instantly have a vision in my head of what I want to submit. When I get the time (not as often as I want), I do make a lot of concerted efforts to get that shot. But it never turns out like the vision in my head.
(Maybe I'd make a better painter? Possibly, but I hated Art at high school as much as the art teacher hated me, I never progressed beyond stick-figures.)
But the one thing I never do is blame the gear, there's not one shot where I'd gone, "oh, if only it were sharper" (except focussing errors, but mostly that's my fault), or "damn this 11 bits of DR, not enough!". If I get the shot but I had to do it at iso6400 on my 7D, so be it. To me the noise doesn't ruin the good shot (yes, i'd like it if there were less noise, but I'm happy just having captured the vision)

Thing is, there's never a set reason why they don't turn out like I want. eg this week's TDP assignment got foiled twice because the sun set faster than I'd thought and I missed the light, and on the 3rd try I got there too early, only to be chased by cows.
I've had another great vision of a building I drive past on the way home from work, got there one day when the light was perfect, had the right lens and cpl and all, but the view was blocked by a damned tree.
And a lot of the time I turn a corner and think "wow, that would make a really good photo", and I don't have my camera with me (or last week I saw a great shot out of the car window, by the time i'd nearly crashed trying to park and ran back, the light was gone).


And then there's the flipside, which is when I create what (I think, at least) is a really good shot, and I've done it all wrong. Take this photo for instance.
Crappy APS-C camera? check.
Non-macro lens? check.
No artistic vision and just running outside to snap the insect that just landed on the wall? check.
Using crappy on-board flash instead of side-mounted speedlight with soft-box or ring-flash? check.
Being so close that the lens shields the flash and I get backlight off the wall instead? check.

Still, for all of that wrong gear, wrong skill, and no artistic vision, it's one of my favourite photos. (and more ironically, once I looked at the LCD and thought it looked good, I spent another half an hour photographing that very patient dragonfly in the same manner, trying to improve. Got inside, processed, looked at them all. Guess which was the best? The very first one, of course.)
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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2012, 04:47:10 AM »

IronChef

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2012, 05:49:20 AM »
Quote
We all know you just don't read online chat rooms to select the best brands of canvas, oils and brushes, and once obtained, just sit down and fiddle with them for a while and great paintings pop out. You have to know what you want to paint.

You don't research clay and tools, buy them and have sculptures spring forth.

If clay and tools costs thousands of dollars, people will search for the best brands. Silly analogy.

sandymandy

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2012, 07:12:25 AM »
Technical wise photography is perhaps the easiest art. It basically just needs ur eyes to work and u gotta be able to press a button on ur camera. Imho most other arts involve some kind of motor skills and/or body control that u dont just have as an average person.

yeaaaah and is there somebody here who never heard "person X shoots great photos cuz the have a great camera" ??...............................

most people know from school singing or any kind of drawing/sculpting isnt so easy :P
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 07:14:01 AM by sandymandy »

kennephoto

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2012, 08:55:22 AM »
Technical wise photography is perhaps the easiest art. It basically just needs ur eyes to work and u gotta be able to press a button on ur camera. Imho most other arts involve some kind of motor skills and/or body control that u dont just have as an average person.

yeaaaah and is there somebody here who never heard "person X shoots great photos cuz the have a great camera" ??...............................

most people know from school singing or any kind of drawing/sculpting isnt so easy :P

I'd agree with this, I dont think I would use easiest art however I think its simply almost everyone has a camera these days, especially by comparison to how many people may have an easle, paint and a canvas around. If you have a phone you have a camera, cars have cameras, roads have cameras but I would say not every photographt is art.
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kennephoto

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2012, 09:11:49 AM »
Just thought of something else pretty sure theres lots of paintings and sculptures that are used for landscapes or offices that are made from molds or prints. I dont consider my bird bath art its pretty generic looking as are many photos. So if photography is the red headed step child of the art world then I guess that makes me a red headed step child too  ;)
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Patrick

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2012, 09:59:33 AM »
Here's my 2c worth...

Good gear plus creative vision = good/great images
Good gear plus limited creativity = limited images/snapshots
Limited gear plus creative vision = limited/good/great images.
and, for completeness...
Limited gear plus limited creative vision = snapshots

You can buy your way out of snapshots but you cannot buy your way to great images because great images require creativity and luck.

rocketdesigner

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2012, 10:20:30 AM »
When technology is involved in any creation, the quality of the required tool(s) do matter.

Thats not to say lesser tools cannot produce a quality product. You might be able to build a decent birdhouse with a hammer that has a broken handle and a saw with half its teeth missing ... but using a new hammer and saw probably would have resulted in a better birdhouse.

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2012, 10:20:30 AM »

motorhead

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2012, 10:38:30 AM »
If the equipment made one iota of a difference then we would all be producing masterpieces daily. Clearly we are not, as the real artists show us constantly.

So I don't believe the amazing equipment we have these days makes any difference. The vision (or lack of it) is in us, not the kit we use.

sanj

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2012, 10:51:01 AM »
Here's my 2c worth...

Good gear plus creative vision = good/great images
Good gear plus limited creativity = limited images/snapshots
Limited gear plus creative vision = limited/good/great images.
and, for completeness...
Limited gear plus limited creative vision = snapshots

You can buy your way out of snapshots but you cannot buy your way to great images because great images require creativity and luck.
Agree!

TW

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2012, 11:09:12 AM »
When technology is involved in any creation, the quality of the required tool(s) do matter.

Thats not to say lesser tools cannot produce a quality product. You might be able to build a decent birdhouse with a hammer that has a broken handle and a saw with half its teeth missing ... but using a new hammer and saw probably would have resulted in a better birdhouse.

But perhaps what Ken is saying is that a man with a gold-plated, diamond-encrusted, solid platinum hammer and saw, but no idea what he is doing is not likely to outperform or even equal or come close to a thoughtful, experienced man with a plan using standard toolkit, eh?
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verysimplejason

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2012, 10:08:52 PM »
When technology is involved in any creation, the quality of the required tool(s) do matter.

Thats not to say lesser tools cannot produce a quality product. You might be able to build a decent birdhouse with a hammer that has a broken handle and a saw with half its teeth missing ... but using a new hammer and saw probably would have resulted in a better birdhouse.

But perhaps what Ken is saying is that a man with a gold-plated, diamond-encrusted, solid platinum hammer and saw, but no idea what he is doing is not likely to outperform or even equal or come close to a thoughtful, experienced man with a plan using standard toolkit, eh?

+1.  When enough is enough.

bdunbar79

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2012, 10:26:57 PM »
All I'm saying is that Ken makes a blanket statement that the camera and/or gear, doesn't matter.  He puts no stipulations on the comment.  I've agreed with all the posts on here, but still not my point.  I guess I should rephrase that, for me it does matter.  I am getting shots today I couldn't 2 years ago, and the ONLY reason is my camera.

I agree with the content and artistic arguments don't get me wrong, but that wasn't really my problem with Ken's comment.  Again, I do like Ken and his website too, I just don't agree entirely with that blanket statement he says.  The only reason I am getting some night sports shots that I am today is not because of anything at all other than my camera.
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crasher8

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2012, 10:45:59 PM »
It doesn't matter what camera you have. I have taken and produced much better work from my Elan 7 and my darkroom skills than I ever have with my 7D and L lenses.

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2012, 10:45:59 PM »

bdunbar79

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2012, 11:16:53 PM »
It doesn't matter what camera you have. I have taken and produced much better work from my Elan 7 and my darkroom skills than I ever have with my 7D and L lenses.

Then take your Elan 7 out and shoot 1/2000s, ISO 25,600, f/2.8 on a 300 f/2.8L, get a rapid fire shot of an interception and print out 8 x 10's.  The camera will suddenly and mysteriously matter.  By the way, there is a camera today that will do that easily.  A CAMERA.
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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2012, 11:26:11 PM »
It doesn't matter what camera you have. I have taken and produced much better work from my Elan 7 and my darkroom skills than I ever have with my 7D and L lenses.


Then take your Elan 7 out and shoot 1/2000s, ISO 25,600, f/2.8 on a 300 f/2.8L, get a rapid fire shot of an interception and print out 8 x 10's.  The camera will suddenly and mysteriously matter.  By the way, there is a camera today that will do that easily.  A CAMERA.


Oh yeah, I could do that on my 4x5 camera because i'm awesome. (if I still had my 4x5 gear.)  ;D

http://gizmodo.com/5932550/the-single-most-awesome-photographer-at-the-olympics

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Re: Rockwell knocks one out of the park (no kidding)!
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2012, 11:26:11 PM »