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Author Topic: 1Dx simple DR stress test  (Read 11552 times)

Aglet

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2012, 04:23:13 PM »
...
  I do not understand why  some are so emotional about just one aspect of harware performance - this hardware is just piece of metal and  silicon  -  nothing emotional inside.
  Also it seems that some people confused between technical aspects and art aspects of using photographic tools.  Some do not see beyond borders of  their own small world - illustrated by arguments like " why on the earth you need to raise shadows  - in my world I do not do that so you MUST NOT do that because I do not do".  But there is not a one small confined world - there are many of them.
...

Neutral, from me, and perhaps I'm also speaking on behalf of a few other open-minded people here on CR, WELCOME to CR forums. :)

Many of us here do appreciate basic technical information about the tools we use and their limitations.
But as you have quickly observed, there are also many others who seem to have an emotional response to this information and the way it is presented because it may differ from procedures they use or would never consider using, for whatever reason.

I only wish I would have known, a few years ago, this very kind of detailed information on the camera bodies I was considering.  I may not have chosen the 5D2 if I'd have known how much FP noise it had, or the 7D for the same reason.  At the time all I could find was plenty of over-the-top positive reviews about how fabulous these new cameras were.
Back then my best camera was my 40D and when I saw the output from my new 5D2 I immediately wondered what all the fanboy fuss was about, the raw files were noisier than my 40D!  I was under the impression that the new 5D2 was so vastly superior so to see the per-pixel performance was no improvement was very disappointing.

I did buy the 7D because of its AF system but was again very disappointed to see its very banded low ISO FPN problem was far worse than any camera I'd used previously or since.

I have a much more cautious and facts-oriented approach since then.

When I gathered up a bunch of black-frame raw samples from various cameras, compiled and posted them on my web site, I did so because no information like this was readily available anywhere else.
I don't know if you were reading CR forums here back when I did that but it unleashed quite a bit of discussion, much of it just like we've seen in this very thread.

I don't understand some peoples' strong aversion to facts, or how those facts are presented.  It's just information; valuable to some but if it's not of use to someone else, I don't understand the latter groups motivation to denigrate the information or the person providing it.  I guess some people feel the need to express their opinion on matters which they claim do not matter to them and some will even show some immaturity while doing so.

I hope you will continue to participate in CR and not let some of those negative behaviors that occasionally display themselves discourage you from being a part of this group.  Overall it's a pretty good bunch. :)

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2012, 04:23:13 PM »

Aglet

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2012, 04:31:51 PM »
.. Here is  another example of 1Dx shot in normal daylight conditions using 70-200 2.8L IS USM II.
This  100% crop to get close-up of the subject.   Not too bad I belive for the camera and lens combination)))

Looks like the AF nailed it.

I'm curious tho, what software created the 100% crop jpg?
There appears to be a slight bit of a black halo/edge along the left side of duck's (duck's R side) white feathers where it borders with the water background.  Looks a bit like a strong unsharp mask was applied.

Viggo

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2012, 07:34:24 PM »
40d less noise than 5d2? Yeah, okay...

If people like myself that think the 1d X is the best I have ever tried didn't balance the noise (again, nerdypun) people make, people that don't know this would think the 1d X was just a very expensive paperweight and buy a 40d thinking it was the best ever.

I am all for facts and people can care or not. But to say the rubbish useless DR of 1d x is end all is just completely wrong in my experience, and even if the fact is there. I never experience it in real life, that also is a fact.
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Aglet

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2012, 11:07:31 PM »
40d less noise than 5d2? Yeah, okay...

If people like myself that think the 1d X is the best I have ever tried didn't balance the noise (again, nerdypun) people make, people that don't know this would think the 1d X was just a very expensive paperweight and buy a 40d thinking it was the best ever.

I am all for facts and people can care or not. But to say the rubbish useless DR of 1d x is end all is just completely wrong in my experience, and even if the fact is there. I never experience it in real life, that also is a fact.

Really not sure what you're trying to say there..
But what the OP just showed us is that the 1Dx, even if it's canon's best body to date, still has FPN at base ISO.
If your real life experience with it doesn't run into problems then you fit that category of Canon shooter for whom this information is not relevant. So if this information is not relevant to you, what are you adding to this topic?

And yes, my 40D has less obvious FPN than my 5D2 at lower ISO values.  Doesn't yours?

nightbreath

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2012, 11:12:50 AM »
Really not sure what you're trying to say there..
But what the OP just showed us is that the 1Dx, even if it's canon's best body to date, still has FPN at base ISO.
If your real life experience with it doesn't run into problems then you fit that category of Canon shooter for whom this information is not relevant. So if this information is not relevant to you, what are you adding to this topic?
Viggo is just sharing his experience. Which is great in photography world and this specific topic particularly, as many years after, we might get new perspective on things.

You might know something about measurable DR or tonal range, and in the same time don't take into account difference between 1D and other Canon cameras' RAW colors. I don't know much by myself, but if there were no messages like Viggo has made, I would know nothing  ;)
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Neutral

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2012, 12:55:57 PM »
.. Here is  another example of 1Dx shot in normal daylight conditions using 70-200 2.8L IS USM II.
This  100% crop to get close-up of the subject.   Not too bad I belive for the camera and lens combination)))

Looks like the AF nailed it.

I'm curious tho, what software created the 100% crop jpg?
There appears to be a slight bit of a black halo/edge along the left side of duck's (duck's R side) white feathers where it borders with the water background.  Looks a bit like a strong unsharp mask was applied.

  It was "quick and dirty" Win 7 snipping tool to get snapshot of the portion of the screen and then save it to the JPEG to attach to the post .  Output of this tool is highly compressed and so quality is affected.
 Intention was not to show fine details on pixel level  but rather to show that in normal light conditions (and for 1Dx it is  normal contrast low light as well) 1Dx is performing very well - regarding shadows (initial post topic) and highlights as well.
  So now is the same 100% crop normally exported from LR with 100% quality with no sharpening for the screen.

 And this was casual shot  from far distance  (while I was waiting for some indoor event) - as soon as I took camera off the bag and started approching more closely then few minutes later I was stopped by security telling that to use professional camera and lens without park authorities permission is not allowed (((.

As for 1Dx autofocus - it is  exellent - almost 100% images are perfect in this respect.
Even for 85 1.2L USM II i have almost 100% of the perfectly autofocused shots at F=1.2.

  The only one thing that I found dissapointing is  that in AI Servo mode i could start object tracking only from central AF point.
   If I set any periferal point as starting point then 1Dx  autofocus OK  initially but not tracking the object. This is not very convinent in many situations  when object is moving accross the frame and I want  to catch it at one side of the frame and  track it without camera movement while it crossing the frame.
 So nothing is perfect - even 1Dx is still far away from my vision of perfect camera - but this is separate subject.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 01:04:55 PM by Neutral »

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2012, 01:08:08 PM »
If I set any periferal point as starting point then 1Dx  autofocus OK  initially but not tracking the object. This is not very convinent in many situations  when object is moving accross the frame and I want  to catch it at one side of the frame and  track it without camera movement while it crossing the frame.

What AF selection mode are you using?  You need to be in 61-pt auto selection for it to track across the frame (in AI Servo, you can still select the starting AF point in 61-pt auto). 
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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2012, 01:08:08 PM »

Viggo

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2012, 01:32:26 PM »
If I set any periferal point as starting point then 1Dx  autofocus OK  initially but not tracking the object. This is not very convinent in many situations  when object is moving accross the frame and I want  to catch it at one side of the frame and  track it without camera movement while it crossing the frame.

What AF selection mode are you using?  You need to be in 61-pt auto selection for it to track across the frame (in AI Servo, you can still select the starting AF point in 61-pt auto).

I'm curious, does that type of tracking provide any hitrate at all? I've briefly tried it, but feel it's like the lottery... any other setting to accompanie that mode for better accuracy?
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neuroanatomist

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2012, 01:38:34 PM »
If I set any periferal point as starting point then 1Dx  autofocus OK  initially but not tracking the object. This is not very convinent in many situations  when object is moving accross the frame and I want  to catch it at one side of the frame and  track it without camera movement while it crossing the frame.

What AF selection mode are you using?  You need to be in 61-pt auto selection for it to track across the frame (in AI Servo, you can still select the starting AF point in 61-pt auto).

I'm curious, does that type of tracking provide any hitrate at all? I've briefly tried it, but feel it's like the lottery... any other setting to accompanie that mode for better accuracy?

I've found it to work very well with faces.  Haven't tried it with birds or other subjects.
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Neutral

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2012, 01:44:00 PM »

<..>
And yes, my 40D has less obvious FPN than my 5D2 at lower ISO values.  Doesn't yours?

I have the almost same experience with my 5DM2.
I was so excited about the camera - tons of positive reviews with many exclamation marks  - so I bought it to replace my   EOS 40D as second camera to my 1Ds M3 ( which I actually  selling now after I got 1Dx).
 One of my favorites  is evening/night shooting attempting to  capture that special feeling that they carry on  but dissapointemet came after first session - and after few more attempts I end up using it as point and shoot camera in normal conditions - whenever going out with my wife or friends.  And for the rest 1Ds M3 was still mostly used camera as 5D M2 could not  even come close to what 1Ds M3 was capable of  regarding autofocus quality, ability to AF at F=8 etc.  Also 1Ds M3 images at low ISO were  looking better as well.
And for the night shots with high shadow recovery 40D images were still  looking better than 5DM2 dispite the fact that 40D resolusion is twice less than 5DM2 and older sensor
So finally I sold 5DM2 after few years of almost not using it  and now waiting for new Big Mpxl  High DR Canon camera announcement  - hope they will do something up to date regarding sensor and with 16bit ADC together with extreme low noise circuitry design will reach 15.9 stops DR ))))
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 02:36:24 PM by Neutral »

Neutral

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2012, 02:09:06 PM »
If I set any periferal point as starting point then 1Dx  autofocus OK  initially but not tracking the object. This is not very convinent in many situations  when object is moving accross the frame and I want  to catch it at one side of the frame and  track it without camera movement while it crossing the frame.

What AF selection mode are you using?  You need to be in 61-pt auto selection for it to track across the frame (in AI Servo, you can still select the starting AF point in 61-pt auto).

So far mode 1 was working well for what was required. 
Yes I was using 61-pt autoselection - Canon AF manual is kinda Bible for me))) I studied it very carefully and for easy reference and reading put it in my tablet as well.
 Initial focusing was OK for any point but to start  tracking accross the frame  it was working only from central point.  Discovered that on shooting at Swimming Wold Cup recently  - was trying to track start of swim with HS FPS when all were jumping out and crossing the frame while flying to the water. Wanted not to move camera to produce nice multy-shot (I like that feature) with fixed backgroung but when checking shots found that focusing point stays where it was initially  for all the shots.  So had to forgot about multi-shot mode  and move camera lens to follow the jump into the water. After that did some tests and was having the same results. And I now remember seeing some post somewhwere regarding the same problem. Will do some more tests later when have time and will update on results. Unfortunatly usually getting  very tired at my work (telecomms projects and operations in a very big company - a lot of work pressure) so do not have too much relaxed time on the photography and playing with my lovely photographic toys (((
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 02:55:06 PM by Neutral »

Neutral

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2012, 02:26:59 PM »
If I set any periferal point as starting point then 1Dx  autofocus OK  initially but not tracking the object. This is not very convinent in many situations  when object is moving accross the frame and I want  to catch it at one side of the frame and  track it without camera movement while it crossing the frame.

What AF selection mode are you using?  You need to be in 61-pt auto selection for it to track across the frame (in AI Servo, you can still select the starting AF point in 61-pt auto).

I'm curious, does that type of tracking provide any hitrate at all? I've briefly tried it, but feel it's like the lottery... any other setting to accompanie that mode for better accuracy?

You could set it to whatever you want - second tab in AF settings is for AI Servo 1st and 2d image priority.
If you want speed compromising  focus accuracy set it close to release (at the left)  If you want focus accuracy priority (shutter is not released unless focus is achived) then set it closer to focus  - this could significanly slow down FPS.
You can do that separetely for the first shot and separately for the rest of them.
For myself I set both to focus priority  and the same for one short AF  - so I know that most of my shots will be 100% accurately focused.  And for conditions suitable for AI Servo Mode 1 I did not notice any slowness in FPS  - 1Dx AI Servo tracking is very "catchy"  - before we could see that only in astronomically expensive science installations and military tracking systems - now with increased processing power in camera that became available for us as well ))
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 02:44:35 PM by Neutral »

Viggo

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2012, 02:54:44 PM »
If I set any periferal point as starting point then 1Dx  autofocus OK  initially but not tracking the object. This is not very convinent in many situations  when object is moving accross the frame and I want  to catch it at one side of the frame and  track it without camera movement while it crossing the frame.

What AF selection mode are you using?  You need to be in 61-pt auto selection for it to track across the frame (in AI Servo, you can still select the starting AF point in 61-pt auto).

I'm curious, does that type of tracking provide any hitrate at all? I've briefly tried it, but feel it's like the lottery... any other setting to accompanie that mode for better accuracy?

You could set it to whatever you want - second tab in AF settings is for AI Servo 1st and 2d image priority.
If you want speed compromising  focus accuracy set it close to release (at the left)  If you want focus accuracy priority (shutter is not released unless focus is achived) then set it closer to focus  - this could significanly slow down FPS.
You can do that separetely for the first shot and separately for the rest of them.
For myself I set both to focus priority  and the same for one short AF  - so I know that most of my shots will be 100% accurately focused.  And for conditions suitable for AI Servo Mode 1 I did not notice any slowness in FPS  - 1Dx AI Servo tracking is very "catchy"  - before we could see that only in astronomically expensive science installations and military tracking systems - now with increased processing power in camera that became available for us as well ))

Well, yeah, I know. I have almost no oof shots at all. But I meant when using ALL 61 points autoselect. I normally use one point and perhaps expansion. But the auto all points on the mk4 for example was an absolute joke...
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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2012, 02:54:44 PM »

Neutral

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2012, 03:19:53 PM »
If I set any periferal point as starting point then 1Dx  autofocus OK  initially but not tracking the object. This is not very convinent in many situations  when object is moving accross the frame and I want  to catch it at one side of the frame and  track it without camera movement while it crossing the frame.

What AF selection mode are you using?  You need to be in 61-pt auto selection for it to track across the frame (in AI Servo, you can still select the starting AF point in 61-pt auto).

I'm curious, does that type of tracking provide any hitrate at all? I've briefly tried it, but feel it's like the lottery... any other setting to accompanie that mode for better accuracy?

You could set it to whatever you want - second tab in AF settings is for AI Servo 1st and 2d image priority.
If you want speed compromising  focus accuracy set it close to release (at the left)  If you want focus accuracy priority (shutter is not released unless focus is achived) then set it closer to focus  - this could significanly slow down FPS.
You can do that separetely for the first shot and separately for the rest of them.
For myself I set both to focus priority  and the same for one short AF  - so I know that most of my shots will be 100% accurately focused.  And for conditions suitable for AI Servo Mode 1 I did not notice any slowness in FPS  - 1Dx AI Servo tracking is very "catchy"  - before we could see that only in astronomically expensive science installations and military tracking systems - now with increased processing power in camera that became available for us as well ))

Well, yeah, I know. I have almost no oof shots at all. But I meant when using ALL 61 points autoselect. I normally use one point and perhaps expansion. But the auto all points on the mk4 for example was an absolute joke...

Maybe I was a bit confused  what you were asking.  By "hitrate" you meant how many shots were in focus and I understood that as how FPS is affected by AI Servo.   With 61 autoselect I found some problems as well. This is actually not focus accuracy but the fact that  in this mode focusing point has auto-expansion by default  so if there are anything else in this area closer to camera then AF could switch to closer object in certain conditions.
As example recent Swimming Wold Cup - I had 70-200 and  I tried to use 61 pt autoselection with starting AF point  to follow swimmer and found that in this mode frequently get focused on the swimming lane border which falls in this area because  frame at 200mm FL was covering several lanes and closest lane border was always in the area of bottom expansion point - and it was my fault - forgot about that autoexpansion.  Whenever I used single point AF Servo  - all was perfect 100% AF hitrate.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 03:21:31 PM by Neutral »

Aglet

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2012, 09:01:43 PM »
..camera off the bag and started approching more closely then few minutes later I was stopped by security telling that to use professional camera and lens without park authorities permission is not allowed (((.

THAT is certainly even more disconcerting than low ISO FPN!

I've only had someone ask me to stop taking pictures of plants at a retail greenhouse with my little point'n'shoot camera...  HAHA!  Not like this was going to be a source of commercial poster images, I was just trying to record them so I could remember what plant was what as I was planning what I wanted for my garden.

Since that was private property I complied with their request. But did my best to explain the above and make them feel silly for asking when other people were doing the same thing with their cell phone cameras.

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Re: 1Dx simple DR stress test
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2012, 09:01:43 PM »