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Author Topic: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?  (Read 26908 times)

TheSuede

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2012, 07:36:39 AM »
When looking at statistics about who makes what, how much they sell for, and how much they invest, it is very important to remember that many internet sources mix up sales of three basic metrics:
1) sales in number of sensor units
2) sales in sales value
3) sales in metric area wafer

I'm looking at number two, that is sales in value. This is the easiest and usually most accurate since the manufacturers can only obfuscate their sales up to a certain point in their economic reports. They can't just lie about how much money circulates, taxation and investor relations prevent that very effectively.

The Value of Sales that Canon Semi has is very well reported in their annual reports, and to a lesser degree (only the overall total amount) in the quarterly reports.

That value is right now 800M USD intersegment (Canon Lith > Canon Semi and Canon Semi > Canon imaging and office), nine months into the fiscal year. This value includes print heads (Canon precision) and stepper motors and piezo motors and all the other stuff that Precision sell to both Imaging and Office.
http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2012/rslt2012q3e.pdf

The exact number of sensors is another thing, and pretty hard to compare since Canon Semi is predominately a "large-sensor" company, where each unit of sale (average of total over the year) represents a higher value. I can't say the exact proportions, but companies like Omni and STM probably sell (in unit numbers) about 30-50x more sensors than what Canon does.

One thing to note about the sheet from earlier is the very important sentence in fine print below the spreadsheet:
-"...calculated based on shipment of application devices"
This means that in the case where the manufacturer delivers complete SOC packages as "modules" to the customers (buyers of small-sensor stuff almost never buy "sensors", they buy "sensor modules") the price for the base-plate, the image processing logic, the filter package, the mounting package and so on is included in the total. In stead of a sensor, you get everything included downstream up to the point of memory interface to the card reader or internal memory in the device you bought the package for.
Normally this means a tripling of the sales value in total - the sensor cost in one third of the sales total.

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2012, 07:36:39 AM »

TheSuede

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2012, 07:40:28 AM »
Regarding "Canon says that..."

Well, total BS. Or actually, even worse than total BS - it's "Marketing speak"!  :)

Nikon says they "manufacture" their own sensors for some of the cameras - same sort of BS. They don't even have the fabs to do it. It's IP owned by Nikon, realized by the hands of Renesas, in Renesas facilities, with Renesas manufacturing expertise.

Canon Semi does not have ANY logic/memory/MEMS production of their own. It would be twice as expensive, and most probably a lot worse in both performance and power drain. Leave it to the specialists in stead.

nightbreath

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2012, 11:33:01 AM »
Sony  integrates the ADC. Canon still uses off chip, Analog Devices ADC's. That's why they can't get the performance that Sony does. One of the reasons that they can't is because their process geometry, on the old line, is just too coarse

Thoughts on that?
I think we know nothing about current technology progress and it's not that simple as "that's why Canon can't do that". I'd suggest to wait and to see what is presented in the future instead of guessing how bad or good things are.

What direction does this topic turn into? The thread became too "noisy"  ;)
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sach100

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2012, 01:55:23 AM »
Apart from the apparent mudslinging going on here there are some great links in the thread.. so thanks for that!
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AprilForever

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2012, 02:20:57 AM »
Sooo... Does this means that the delay on the 7D mk II means MAD IMPROVEMENTS ON ALL LEVELS?!?!?!? I believe it does!
What is truth?

bdunbar79

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2012, 12:37:58 PM »
Sony  integrates the ADC. Canon still uses off chip, Analog Devices ADC's. That's why they can't get the performance that Sony does. One of the reasons that they can't is because their process geometry, on the old line, is just too coarse

Thoughts on that?
I think we know nothing about current technology progress and it's not that simple as "that's why Canon can't do that". I'd suggest to wait and to see what is presented in the future instead of guessing how bad or good things are.

What direction does this topic turn into? The thread became too "noisy"  ;)

Just fix it in Lightroom :)
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tron

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2012, 01:57:24 PM »
Sony  integrates the ADC. Canon still uses off chip, Analog Devices ADC's. That's why they can't get the performance that Sony does. One of the reasons that they can't is because their process geometry, on the old line, is just too coarse

Thoughts on that?
I think we know nothing about current technology progress and it's not that simple as "that's why Canon can't do that". I'd suggest to wait and to see what is presented in the future instead of guessing how bad or good things are.

What direction does this topic turn into? The thread became too "noisy"  ;)

Just fix it in Lightroom :)
;D

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2012, 01:57:24 PM »

tron

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2012, 01:59:01 PM »
Sooo... Does this means that the delay on the 7D mk II means MAD IMPROVEMENTS ON ALL LEVELS?!?!?!? I believe it does!
There is a rumor that in 10 years from now the sensor of Canon's top APS-C camera will rock!  ;D  ;D  ;D

marekjoz

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2012, 02:18:14 PM »
Sooo... Does this means that the delay on the 7D mk II means MAD IMPROVEMENTS ON ALL LEVELS?!?!?!? I believe it does!
There is a rumor that in 10 years from now the sensor of Canon's top APS-C camera will rock!  ;D  ;D  ;D

You meant mirrorless, didn't you? ;D ;D ;D
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jukka

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2012, 07:36:20 PM »
Here in Findland Sony is very strong. I think we will se changes in the SLR  sellings this year  and canon are more  expensive than before  and it will punish them .

tron

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2012, 10:55:49 PM »
Regarding "Canon says that..."
Well, total BS. Or actually, even worse than total BS - it's "Marketing speak"! 
Well you happened to use two expressions for something I used a combined one: "Marketing BS"   ;D

jrista

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2012, 01:09:00 PM »

The effect this has on available budgets is quite profound:
Sony invest about 1.0-1.5 billion dollars per year in new and improved lithography and processing lines. Having spent almost 7 billion on the Kumamoto TEC site for the last 5 years, next year the smaller Nagasaki TEC is getting 1.5 billion next year.
This IN ITSELF is more than the total revenue of Canon Semiconductor.


and we all know how good sonys profit is....  ::)

while sony was deep in the reds the last years, canon made profit.

so maybe canon has enough money to spend to do the jump to a smaller process.... now.
without spending money on smaller steps over the last years... like sony has.



New figures Sony : http://www.isuppli.com/Semiconductor-Value-Chain/News/Pages/Qualcomm-Rides-Wireless-Wave-to-Take-Third-Place-in-Global-Semiconductor-Market-in-2012.aspx

Sony is the 2nd Best Performing Semiconductor Company in Top 20 List
"Sony's strong results are due to its leading position in the image sensor market, which is expected to grow by 19 percent in 2012, with the CMOS image sensor sector of the market seeing its revenue expand by 31.8 percent. Sony's image sensor revenue, which accounts for nearly 60 percent of its semiconductor takings, is expected to expand by 48 percent. Even more amazing, its CMOS image sensor revenues are forecast to more than double," says Dale Ford, iSuppli's analyst.


Sony has also achieved junk-bond status because they borrow exorbitant amounts of money on an excessive basis, to the tune that people expect a VERY significant return on their lending for each new Sony bond issue. Sony has also reported an operating LOSS for the first time in many years this year. Sony is so deep in debt at the moment that it remains to be seen if their insane bum-rush investiture in CIS technology (to the tune of tens of billions, a significant percentage (50%+) of their total revenues) will really "pay out" in the future, or whether it will require continued debt load to sustain...

On the flip side, to Sony's 7 billion dollar income loss this year, Canon posted a 3 billion dollar income gain for the same period. It is one thing to be the technological king, but another thing to be the king and bleeding to death at the same time...
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dlleno

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2012, 04:50:16 PM »
striking global economic parallels :D

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Re: Canon to start using 0.18um (180nm) process for FF?
« Reply #72 on: December 06, 2012, 04:50:16 PM »