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Author Topic: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan  (Read 12770 times)

Zv

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2012, 09:38:58 AM »
Had a play about with one today at a camera store. I have to admit it's quite addictive! Here's some things I like / don't like about it -

Like - the touchscreen. You can select an AF point (area?) just by touching the screen. Cool. Also the Playback zoom is super easy with the pinch and grab movements.
It's small, with the 22mm it could fit in a coat pocket, not in your jeans pocket though.
The IQ of the 22mm was pretty good too, slightly better than the 18-55mm.

Dislike - AF was slow. I'll try and be specific here. Even when the subject is already close to being in focus it still hunts back and forth once or twice and then locks. Average time to lock on was between 1 to 2 seconds. Lighting conditions were average. You will not be able to take a quick snap with this thing.
The EF adapter is pretty heavy. Probably weighs more than my 50mm f/1.8 II.

But overall I still think it has potential if they can fix the AF with a firmware.
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EOS M | 22 f/2 | 11-22 IS

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2012, 09:38:58 AM »

brad-man

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2012, 10:02:39 AM »
Very sad news.

I was hoping that people would ignore this camera, because it isn't full frame.

The EOS M is just another "I can too!"


This is a very odd sentiment. Did you expect Canon's first mirrorless would be full frame? It is already a full size APS-C. I am hoping the camera will be a success, thereby prompting Canon to expand the line with more features and lenses worthy of a "real" system. This, in turn, will eventually lead to a full frame version...

Nishi Drew

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2012, 10:11:25 AM »
Here in Japan, I visited a photo gallery, and one of the gentlemen who's work was at the exhibition was toying with his M, attached to it was a massive (or with the small body looked that much larger) telephoto. He was taking pictures of me and a few others with it having some fun. For people with a wealth of EF lenses it would be tempting, but man, it doesn't stand out any less, is now awkwardly front heavy, and less controls + no VF would mean slower operation anyways... yeah basically what everyone's been saying, but I saw it happening in the wild!

weixing

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2012, 10:59:19 AM »
Hi,
    If you do the calculation, Canon G1X sensor has similar pixel size with 7D, 60D, 650D and EOS M... at around 4.3um.

    So, you want a camera with good IQ, you can have the following choice:
1) P&S: Canon G1X
2) Mirrorless: EOS M
3) General Purpose DSLR: 650D
4) Mid level DSLR: 60D
5) Sport/Wildlife DSLR: 7D

   WOW! Canon cover all the range with one sensor design.

   Have a nice day.

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2012, 12:24:10 PM »
It is good that Canon is enjoying some success with their new mirror-less APS-C offering, but I fear that it could put more pressure on Canon to make smaller and lighter bodies, that in turn  may result in smaller & lighter EF lenses (just look at how much weight they shaved off the 24-70 II by using more plastic).

Act444

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2012, 12:25:52 PM »

The IQ of the 22mm was pretty good too, slightly better than the 18-55mm.

How was the 18-55? They didn't have it in store, and they don't sell a 18-55 kit in the US so I just got it with the stock 22 (which exceeded my expectations).

Quote
Dislike - AF was slow. I'll try and be specific here. Even when the subject is already close to being in focus it still hunts back and forth once or twice and then locks. Average time to lock on was between 1 to 2 seconds. Lighting conditions were average. You will not be able to take a quick snap with this thing.

1-2 seconds? My experience is usually about 1 second, maybe a little faster. When using the outer focus points near the corners, I agree, 1-2 sec is more common but center point is quite fast actually (assuming your subject is not vastly out of focus- even then, it's not too bad). That said, when I tested it in "rush mode" I did notice a shutter lag (delay between confirmed focus and pic taken) which I hope they can address, perhaps in firmware.

Where it REALLY slowed down was when I switched to the FlexiZone-Multi mode and the face detection. If your scene is OOF and there are a lot of near and far subjects in your shot...be prepared to wait several seconds, especially in low light.

Quote
The EF adapter is pretty heavy. Probably weighs more than my 50mm f/1.8 II.

Interesting...they didn't have the adapter on hand either but I'd love to try it with my 40 2.8. Seems like it would fit well...

Quote
Here in Japan, I visited a photo gallery, and one of the gentlemen who's work was at the exhibition was toying with his M, attached to it was a massive (or with the small body looked that much larger) telephoto. He was taking pictures of me and a few others with it having some fun. For people with a wealth of EF lenses it would be tempting, but man, it doesn't stand out any less, is now awkwardly front heavy, and less controls + no VF would mean slower operation anyways... yeah basically what everyone's been saying, but I saw it happening in the wild!

No point in attaching a big lens to this camera. Defeats its purpose! May as well be using a DSLR.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 12:31:59 PM by Act444 »

bycostello

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2012, 08:06:28 PM »
i need hands on with it to decide f i stick with canon.. slow AF killing it for me

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2012, 08:06:28 PM »

dr croubie

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2012, 08:34:33 PM »
Here in Japan, I visited a photo gallery, and one of the gentlemen who's work was at the exhibition was toying with his M, attached to it was a massive (or with the small body looked that much larger) telephoto. He was taking pictures of me and a few others with it having some fun. For people with a wealth of EF lenses it would be tempting, but man, it doesn't stand out any less, is now awkwardly front heavy, and less controls + no VF would mean slower operation anyways... yeah basically what everyone's been saying, but I saw it happening in the wild!
No point in attaching a big lens to this camera. Defeats its purpose! May as well be using a DSLR.

Well here's the thing. When i've got my 70-300L on my 7D, I'm holding the camera in my right hand all the time (usually with the neck-strap wound around my wrist, I know i should buy a wrist-strap). When I want to take a photo, I raise it up to my eye, my left hand grabs the zoom ring, zoom to where i want, then kinda hold it there, the weight is distributed between my right and left hands evenly.

So yes, you put that lens on an M, it's going to be useless, i can't zoom *and* keep it steady with only my left hand, and taking the lens-weight by holding the camera is no good, you'll snap the mount off in no time.

But I think if you attach a prime lens (especially one with a foot, like the 180 macro, 200/2 or any of the smaller Big Whites), then you can support the entire combo in your left hand, your right hand just has to hold a tiny bit of the camera's weight and press the shutter. It will probably take a bit of getting used to, but i reckon it wouldn't be so bad.

So yeah, long (especially heavy) zooms are out. Long primes maybe, and wide-angle primes would be the best match for the M imho.
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Act444

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2012, 09:44:42 PM »
I can imagine only the smallest of the EF lenses being usable - i.e. the 40 2.8, 50 1.8, the 60 EF-S macro, etc. which are all fixed-length lenses. The one zoom lens that might work is the old 24-85mm (no longer in production)- it's the size of the 60 EF-S Macro with a little more weight. I picked up an old one- however the "zoom creep" on it is quite bad...

verysimplejason

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2012, 08:24:08 AM »
I find the EOS-M + 22mm somewhat around the size of a G1X possibly as small as a G12 and lighter.  If it can just be a little bit cheaper, I think lots of G series users and updater will prefer the EOS M.  Also if I'm gonna have a backup camera, I'd definitely take this more than an RX100 or G1X.  It won't add so much weight to my DSLR.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 08:25:59 AM by verysimplejason »

Act444

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2012, 04:16:06 PM »
At the store, I handled both the G1X and the EOS M. The M (with the 22mm) is the smaller of the two.

The G1X has a lot of dials (and a grip) so it "feels" much more like a miniaturized DSLR. Controls are basically the same and it has a flipscreen and built-in flash. But there was one thing that bugged the heck out of me when I tried it- its complete inability to focus close. Also, there isn't nearly as much background blur (perhaps sensor size coming into play here).

The M, on the contrary, feels more like a fancy, new-age Powershot with its touch-screen and minimalist factor. But its IQ is simply amazing for such a small camera (provided you stay at f2.8 or smaller). The lack of flash of viewfinder may be a deal-breaker for some but I can deal with it. Surprisingly despite its size, there is still a bit of heft to it, so you know you are holding something.

wickidwombat

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2012, 03:41:42 AM »
Well I Finally got my EOS-M a few days ago

Why did I get an EOS-M ? I hear you ask. (Especially considering the loathing I have for the poorly performing 18MP APS-C sensors)

Well quite simply this. I had a Fuji X10 that went back to Fuji about 5 times with them either not fixing the problems and or breaking other stuff in the process in the end the store I bought it from said put it back in the box and bring it back and we'll give you a new one so I said "I'm done with crap Fuji service just put the value towards a preorder on the EOS-M (AT least Canon have good service!)
I just had to pay the difference. I went with the whole shebang and got the full kit EOS-M, 22mm, 18-55, EX90 and the EF adapter

So what do I think of it?
Well to be honest I have very mixed feelings about the little guy I'll go through a few things
I've taken a bunch of test images which I may post if I can be bothered I've been quite busy of late

First I will address the AF that seems to be getting hammered in reviews

Is it really slower than the average politician’s brain? Well yes... yes it is
However that is if you use the shutter button it... is... pain... fully... dog... slow and focuses on random S___ you had no intention of focusing on. The shutter button on this camera is nearly close to useless.

Wow that’s a pretty big smack down you say?

Yeah sure is, however then I discovered the touch operated shutter mode and face recognition and tracking
Quite frankly this is seriously good it makes the AF maybe 10 times faster than the ponderous shutter button with wierd crappy focus selection mode.

How to describe it?
It’s kind of like spot focus... so you tap the screen on the thing you want to shoot and bam the camera focuses on that thing and takes the shot at the same time. Fast. Not as fast as say a 1D, 5Dmk3 or probably even a 7D
But it's quick, and a very usable quick at that. Now the face tracking thing if you have the continuous AF enabled with the face tracky gizmo then it’s even faster since it’s already tracking faces and is basically nearly there you you tap the face and it shoots even if you tap something else it’s still faster.

THE LENSES
The 22mm f2 is really nice, it’s very compact 43mm filter thread smaller than even the 40mm pancake well built, and really quite sharp even wide open (sharp relative to the APS-C sensor that is) I can see this lens spending the most time on this thing it’s pretty damn good and very compact.

The 18-55 its well-made too same build quality as the 22mm, quite compact with a smooth zoom extension and smooth manual focus ring no zoom creep that I noticed but it weighs next to nothing so I would not expect creep in this lens. But its slow, uninspiring and well, it’s a kit lens. Stopped down it seems sharp enough but next to the 22mm it looks bad. Since its STM though its continuous AF is quite smooth and silent compared to USM lenses with the adaptor which make a lot of noise and the sound gives me a bad feeling about putting un needed wear on the lens so I turned off the continuous AF when using the EF adapter and all the other lenses.

What other lenses did I try out?
Well after having a brief go with the 18-55 and feeling very underwhelmed I thought I would throw on the 16-35 f2.8L II once I turned off the continuous AF I no longer felt like my poor L lens was going to explode and it was a reasonable snappy focuser and super sharp. The balance was actually pretty reasonable holding the lens in my left hand using my left thumb to zoom a shooting with my right fore finger on the touch screen. And corner to corner sharp even at f2.8

I’ll add here that the USM lenses seem to focus quite a bit slower when they have to rack from end to end if you try to focus on something near and something far I would put the AF speed in a similar range to the 85f1.2L II on a 5Dmk2 say for AF speed using the 16-35 f2.8L II so pretty sluggish but useable.
On real DSLRs this lens as very fast AF

The next lens I whacked on was the 70-200 f2.8L IS II… it was well not very comfortable to hold I would say you would need to use a monopod for this to be remotely effective, however its AF was very quick (remembering that I’ve basically given up on ever using that silly shutter button ever again an I’m doing everything by the touch screen) AF speed increases too if you use the focus limiter switch on the lens and shot farther away than 2.5m again continuous AF does not make sounds that I want to hear from such an expensive lens so it went off.
Then I couldn’t resist it any longer I wanted to see what it was like on the 600 f4.5 FD so I popped it on and well since this is a manual lens I ran into my first massive disappointment with this camera… aside from the useless shutter button (at least that has a work around)
No live view magnification = weak sauce. Seriously Canon give yourselves an upper cut for that one… jackasses
Hopefully this can be fixed by the wonderful people at magic lantern but in real life since you are shooting in live view all the time not having the magnification ability is just dumb. I’ll have to try tethered shooting using the android chainfire app, and see if it will work with the control over HDMI
(that’s a mission for another day)
Anyway focused the 600 as best I could and it produces some pretty decent images, I was reasonably impressed, next I grabbed a 12mm extension tube (since I still have the aperture lever on the lens I needed to space it away so I could use my teleconverters)
Popped on the kenko 1.4 300DGX and it worked perfectly by the way the AF confirm chip from the edmika adapter worked perfectly on the EOS-M took a few shots wide open and then stopped down and yeah stopped down IQ didn’t degrade too badly at all. NICE!
Next up the Canon  2x mk III and well it didn’t play nice and refused to work so I thought I’d try stacking them and what da ya know with the kenko between the 2x and the EF adapter the camera worked for a total equivalent full frame focal length of  2688mm YAY! Ok yeah there was a fair bit of image degradation doing this but you didn’t really expect anything else did you? Still it’s probably better optically than most telescopes anyway even though I was shooting on a tripod on solid floor with solid gimbal and using the 10 second timer It was taking a long time for the shake just from taking the shot to die down probably an IR trigger would work best.
I also popped on the sigma 50mm f1.4 and its AF sounded like it was going to have an epileptic fit so it didn’t stay on for very long. The Sigma 85 f1.4 went on and worked pretty well though it was much slower to achieve focus than the 70-200 was but still not too bad
NEXT UP was playing with the flashes
The little ex90 is not a bad little guy and provides enough light for on camera flash in doors at a reasonable distance even though it’s not massively powerful.  It’s very compact, takes 2 AAA batteries and has an on off button and a lock (quite disappointed they didn’t make it articulated so you could bounce with it though… again bad Canon bad dog) while I was playing with the ex90 I found in the custom options you can program the rubbish bin button while in shooting mode to bring up the flash exposure compensation this is excellent as it makes it very accessible very quickly (good Canon… good dog) so in AV mode the right d pad controls normal EC and the down d pad controls flash exposure compensation. Not bad at all so it’s just as fast as dialing in flash exposure on the back of a 580.
Next on went an Odin controller and popped a 580 on a receiver and it all worked perfectly no issues
Mind you the odin controller is almost the same size as the camera!

Now onto the sensor, well It is 18 MP APS-C at iso 100 has about the same noise as the 5Dmk3 at iso 800  but given its super compact size its ok as in average. After playing with some high iso samples in lightroom I feel that at iso 1600 this sensor needs takes the same level of lightroom 4.2 Noise reduction that a 5Dmk3 file takes at 16,000. No exaggeration either. ISO 3200 is probably the upper limit it does not hold up even as well as the 1Dmk3 holds up at 3200 so for real use 1600 about my tolerance level on this where I have 3200 on the 1Dmk3 3200 to 6400 at a pinch on the 5Dmk2 and 16,000 on the 5Dmk3
Pattern noise shows up very early on the eos-m sensor and get real aggressive real quick (I will never understand why APS-C  fans still defend this format so vigorously)

I felt the camera metered consistently underexposing by a stop or more in AV mode or using auto ISO not really surprising given auto ISO on all the other cameras is somewhat lacking anyway. It would still be nice to be able to be in M mode and have EC apply to the iso but in M mode the EC button has no effect (I’ll be honest I wasn’t expecting any earth shattering kabooms here but it would be nice if Canon one day decided to make their cameras function this way with a firmware update )

I did not try out and most like never will try any creative modes and lame stuff like in camera HDR etc
AV is about at automated as I like to get and even then it does my head in sometimes.

I did play with the video a little it looks ok the stm auto focus in video would be better if it stopped hunting after it locked onto its subject however it just hunts in and out of focus constantly, not sure if this can be fixed with firmware. One would think if the face detection was enabled once it had acquired the selected subject it would stay acquired but it still hunts.

So My Brief summary
PROS
•   Very compact size
•   Nice build quality
•   Great screen
•   Touch interface works well
•   Interface is really quite intuitive and works well with reasonably easy access to most settings
•   Touch to shoot saves the AF despite the lame shutter button at ruining the camera
•   Touch to shoot is REALLY good so it gets mentioned twice
•   22mm Lens is awesome and very sharp wide open
•   EF adapter is great and works well
•   Big sensor for such a little camera

CONS
•   AF using shutter button is a total joke (must have been developed on April 1st)
•   No zoom in live view shooting given you only have live view shooting as an option this is stupid
•   Some lenses perform significantly better than others using the EF adapter and not necessarily the same as they would on a DSLR
•   Underexposure when you trust the camera to meter for you I found the best way to use this camera is in AV with +1 EC dialed in and auto ISO unless you specifically want iso 100 or it will select iso 400 as a minimum for some weird reason. Then if using flash you can dial in some flash EC too as needed after configuring the rubbish bin to be flash EC in custom settings
•   No chance of using this camera for street photography or shooting from the hip with the shutter button. To have it focus properly any subject is definitely gonna know they are having their picture taken
•   Not many custom options
•   AEB only 3 shots like on a rebel
•   Limited iso step selections (full stops only up on high)
•   Video auto focus is not very good and could do with a fix to improve consistency.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 09:24:15 PM by wickidwombat »
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dolina

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2012, 06:13:23 AM »
The camera is aimed at women, and lots of women in Japan are enthusiastic photographers, so I'd expect it to be doing well in Japan.  Its about time that a high end camera was created that takes into account features that women want.
Not necessarily. Even us men want a smaller camera. I just wish it was full frame and had a range finder feel.
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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2012, 06:13:23 AM »

aj1575

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2012, 08:04:14 AM »
Nice to hear that the EOS-M is doing well in Japan. If it does well in other places this raises the chance that we will see more EOS-M stuff; more bodies with more features, more lenses and so on.

I for my part will not buy the first EOS-M, but I will very likely buy one in the future. The main reason is, that a completly new model is not refined at first, it takes one or two generations until they reach a certain level. With the EOS-M it looks like the AF is the main problem, that will certainly improve in the future. (The second reason is, that I'm looking to replace my old EOS 350D with something new like a 6D, 70D 7DII or whatever comes next, and it would cost me too much to do all at the same time).
I was thinking of keeping my EOS 350D and add a EOS-M, but the slow AF is a killer for me at the moment.

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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2012, 12:56:23 PM »
My dad gave me the single best piece of car-shopping advice in my teens: "Never buy the first model of anything".
My life experience has borne this out repeatedly. Those few times I went against it were all mistakes, e.g. the fact that I am a former X100 owner (thankfully I sold it before the resale value went to crap).

So, perhaps EOS-M ii but not now. Intriguing format... sometimes a small, stealthy tool does the trick. No sense missing a great shot just because you're not lugging your FF at the moment!



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Re: EOS-M kicking butt in Japan
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2012, 12:56:23 PM »