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Author Topic: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]  (Read 31196 times)

motorhead

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2011, 10:51:19 AM »
I wonder about technology though, can you offer a 9fps+ capability in a 30+mp camera?

Well, I think a practical solution would be
a single 1D model, 30 MP, shooting 10 fps with e.g. 12 MP and e.g. 3 fps with the full 30 MP.
I think this would make all customer quite happy.

It would not satisfy me and I suggest its shelf life would be very limited. 30MP was withdrawn by Canon if we are to believe the rumours because it was already yesterdays news.

And just to add to the video versus non video debate thats sprung up. I am a stills photographer and will never shoot video even if I'm forced to have it on the camera. I firmly believe that those who want video should buy a video camera designed for the purpose not con the rest of us into paying for something we don't want. And before anyone tells me (yet again) that its not costing me anything - Thats nonsense, we are all paying the R&D and production costs whether we like it or not as things are. Its about time the costs are born by those who want it. 

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2011, 10:51:19 AM »

NormanBates

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2011, 11:03:02 AM »
In my opinion anyone who is a serious professional videographer wont use a DSLR and will use a video camera from a professional range. I know you get the enhanced depth of field, with the EF system, but by the time you have bought the extra equipment like a shoulder harness and all the other stuff that makes a DSLR like a pro video camera you are spending nearly double what a pro video camera would cost. Not forgetting it has serious flaws like zooming etc

all I read there was: "I'm not a videographer, I really have no idea about that market"

* "professional videographer" and "zooming" should never be in the same sentence

* "a pro video camera" comparable to a DSLR starts at $5K (without lenses)

* you've been out of the planet for the last two ryears, right?

* you know black swan had a scene shot with DSLRs? and that George Lucas' Red Tails also used DSLRs? and both of them in situations where the existence of cameras like the sony F3 or FS100 (or the Sony CineAlta F35, which was the main camera in Red Tails) is irrelevant (Black Swan used the DSLRs to shoot in the underground, without permits; in Red Tails, DSLRs were put inside the cabins of WW2 planes; in both cases, the size of a DSLR was deemed more important than the ergonomics of a real videocamera)

the rest of your post, though, is pretty sensible (e.g. the 50D vs 60D vs 7D part, but also the bit about a dedicated videocamera being more likely than a video-centric DSLR); it's just that the beginning cried for a "duty calls" post:
http://xkcd.com/386/
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 11:05:59 AM by NormanBates »

awinphoto

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2011, 11:35:22 AM »
In my opinion anyone who is a serious professional videographer wont use a DSLR and will use a video camera from a professional range. I know you get the enhanced depth of field, with the EF system, but by the time you have bought the extra equipment like a shoulder harness and all the other stuff that makes a DSLR like a pro video camera you are spending nearly double what a pro video camera would cost. Not forgetting it has serious flaws like zooming etc

all I read there was: "I'm not a videographer, I really have no idea about that market"

* "professional videographer" and "zooming" should never be in the same sentence

* "a pro video camera" comparable to a DSLR starts at $5K (without lenses)

* you've been out of the planet for the last two ryears, right?

* you know black swan had a scene shot with DSLRs? and that George Lucas' Red Tails also used DSLRs? and both of them in situations where the existence of cameras like the sony F3 or FS100 (or the Sony CineAlta F35, which was the main camera in Red Tails) is irrelevant (Black Swan used the DSLRs to shoot in the underground, without permits; in Red Tails, DSLRs were put inside the cabins of WW2 planes; in both cases, the size of a DSLR was deemed more important than the ergonomics of a real videocamera)

the rest of your post, though, is pretty sensible (e.g. the 50D vs 60D vs 7D part, but also the bit about a dedicated videocamera being more likely than a video-centric DSLR); it's just that the beginning cried for a "duty calls" post:
http://xkcd.com/386/

+1... dont forget scenes shots in the TV show "house" and even a few scenes in avatar if i'm not mistaken.  There is always a place for compact video cameras.  It's not of the quality of a "red" camera, but for what it is, it's not a shabby performer.  In the end I'd rather have that option in my bag rather than differ all video related jobs to someone else and lose money and a potential client.
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tomscott

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2011, 12:00:48 PM »
Ok then give me a few more examples, in my opinion those were almost experiments and for specific uses where they were seen as better in specific situations where a bigger camera wasnt suited not replacements 'yes we can..." but should you? Otherwise the whole industry would use them. Just because there are a few examples doesn't mean they are accepted as an industry standard. Canon was probably a partner and "see if you can" as good publicity comes to mind. The cameras were only used in specific situations they were not seen as a replacement.

Once you add a lens to the 5D say a 24-70mm or a prime your looking at £1000-1500 then the shoulder harness £1500 and a mic kit and your looking at £5000+. What i meant by zooming was that if you are using a zoom lens the shudder you get from zooming is not aesthetic compared to an electronic digital zoom. At the end of the day my comment concluded at a homologation model with the rumours of new video EF lenses.

Anyone serious about video would choose something like the XL2 orXH G1s.
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kencathy

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2011, 12:44:25 PM »
Canon should think twice about bifurcating the 5d mk iii with a pricier twin. There are alternatives, and we'd hate to lose a Canon devotee to a competitor!

Bob Howland

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2011, 12:55:59 PM »
Ok then give me a few more examples, in my opinion those were almost experiments and for specific uses where they were seen as better in specific situations where a bigger camera wasnt suited not replacements 'yes we can..." but should you? Otherwise the whole industry would use them. Just because there are a few examples doesn't mean they are accepted as an industry standard. Canon was probably a partner and "see if you can" as good publicity comes to mind. The cameras were only used in specific situations they were not seen as a replacement.

Once you add a lens to the 5D say a 24-70mm or a prime your looking at £1000-1500 then the shoulder harness £1500 and a mic kit and your looking at £5000+. What i meant by zooming was that if you are using a zoom lens the shudder you get from zooming is not aesthetic compared to an electronic digital zoom. At the end of the day my comment concluded at a homologation model with the rumours of new video EF lenses.

Anyone serious about video would choose something like the XL2 orXH G1s.

Or an XA10 or XF100 camcorder, which are roughly similar to the 7D and 5D in price, except that the camcorders include a 10X zoom lens. I would suggest that posters who think that the 5D2 is a great video camera should download and read the user manual to the XF100/XF105, just to see what you're missing.

UncleFester

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2011, 12:57:47 PM »
The 5D II performs well enough in video to where many won't upgrade to III if the autofocus problem isn't fixed for stills.  That's the 5D's biggest problem.  I won't upgrade until I'm confident this problem has been resolved and will out-perform the II.

I'm not going to hold my breath.

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2011, 12:57:47 PM »

gene_can_sing

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2011, 01:13:55 PM »
It so obvious from reading these comments that the 5D3 need to be SPLIT into a regular edition with some video, and a optimized video edition. People can't really seem to meet in the middle. It's like Democrats and Republicans.

Think of it this way. A video editor and a 3D animator both buy the newest Macintosh. The video guy is probably going to buy a graphics card optimized for video and video capture and export (very expensive cards). The 3D guy is probably going to buy a graphics card that is optimized for 3D. The same computer, but optimized for different disciplines. It's really no different with cameras.

A big part of why the 5D2 was so successful was because of the video. I work in TV in LA, and everyone I know (and there are many), bought the 5D / 7D mainly for the video.

The market is evolving, and Canon needs to change with it.

Still photographers don't want the video and Video people don't need a huge mega-pixel count because it causes aliasing and line-skipping. As a video guy, I would be happy to have a 5d3 that took great video and good stills, but I don't need a 30 mega pixel image. That's way over kill for me. The opposite probably applies to a Still photographer.

As for the argument of "just go buy a video camera," that is such and OLD and DATED way of looking at things. That just sounds like something my Dad would say. Look at the new RED Epic, it's pretty small and not like a convential video camera. Try shooting cameras like the Red or the Panasonic AF 101 handheld. It doesn't work very well as it always needs some type of support because the size and ergonomic are terrible for hand held.

The small size of the DSLR's are it greatest strength. If you wanted to, you can use a cage and attache a monitor, a good mic to a good recorder, a matte box, a different handle, etc.... But if you want it just the bare basic camera for those stealth Subway shots in Black Swan, it's good for that too. It's as big as you want and as small as you want. Something that just CANNOT be done with current video cameras that are huge and have everything built in.

The DSLRs have their place in video for sure, especially when you need a small, portable camera which is great if you are shooting solo or with a small crew. James Cameron said in a recent interview that he's shooting an entire feature using 5Ds. So yeah, DSLR video is here to stay.

I think the Red Epic and the Scarlet and the DSLRs, all small cameras, are the way of the future. Who wants to film with a giant video camera when you can eventually have something that would do the same thing, but fits in one hand? I certainly don't.

But it's obvious that Canon cannot make both camps happy, so they should just do 2 versions of the 5d3.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 01:32:34 PM by gene_can_sing »

neuroanatomist

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2011, 01:20:53 PM »
I’m told that there will be no more 1D after the next 1Ds.

Previously, you were told (also CR2?) that there would not be a next 1Ds.

I’m told there will be a shakeup in the Canon lineup by the end of 2011.

A shakeup in the lineup?  How does a MkIII of anything represent a shakeup?  By definition, a Mk# release is an incremental improvement in an existing product (as are the equivalent increments in the xxD and xxxD lines).  The 1D was a shakeup - it was digital.  The 5D was a shakeup - 'affordable FF in a small body'.  The 7D was a shakeup - near-1D frame rates in an APS-C format.  If this was about a 3D or a 9D, we could talk shakeup.

I fully expect there to be a 1DsIV, then a 5DIII, then a 7DII.  The next shakeup is a few years away.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2011, 01:25:14 PM »
The market is evolving, and Canon needs to change with it.

That's just it.  Canon seems to lag quite a bit behind in their evolution.  Not that they're using stone knives and bear skins, but they don't have a history of 'skating to where the puck's going.'  I think they put video into the 5DII and were caught by surprise at the outcome.  Three short years is not enough for them to catch up to the crest of that wave (or quite likely, they'll not want to risk doing so).
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gene_can_sing

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2011, 01:37:24 PM »
The market is evolving, and Canon needs to change with it.

That's just it.  Canon seems to lag quite a bit behind in their evolution.  Not that they're using stone knives and bear skins, but they don't have a history of 'skating to where the puck's going.'  I think they put video into the 5DII and were caught by surprise at the outcome.  Three short years is not enough for them to catch up to the crest of that wave (or quite likely, they'll not want to risk doing so).

I totally agree with you. Canon is tragically conservative. The success of the 5D2 was basically an accident because of the video. Canon totally didn't anticipate it.

They are the major camera company now, but if they don't start innovating again, they are going to lose to Sony and Panasonic who are very hungry and coming up with many modern and innovative products.

Not so sure on my history, but wasn't Nikon the dominate company back in the 80s? Wasn't it then a hungry and innovative Canon overtook Nikon? Same thing could very easily happen, especially with Sony since they are now making sensors for other companies and coming out with progressive products.

kencathy

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2011, 01:41:13 PM »
I'll fill out my earlier trivial comment.

Liveview autofocus is the current sorest spot in dSLR performance, both still and video. I am confident Canon will address this in the 5d ii successor. Other camera manufacturers have already enhanced the LVAF performance of their latest cameras (consider the Panasonic 4/3 line and the latest mid-line dSLRs from Nikon).

The other enhancement that would be greatly appreciated is increasing the continuous shooting performance. This will be an aim of the DIGIC V.

I don't think Canon needs to produce specialized 5d iii's. I think they need to improve the LVAF. They will certainly push up the pixel count somewhat and again, put in a faster processor for a higher continuous shooting rate. Maybe they'll even go to a 4:2:2 video codec rather than 4:2:0.

However, with today's technology there is no need to split the next generation 5d line. And I think if Canon does so to "monetize" the 5d video capabilities, they will lose customers.

Bob Howland

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2011, 01:43:33 PM »
It so obvious from reading these comments that the 5D3 need to be SPLIT into a regular edition with some video, and a optimized video edition. People can't really seem to meet in the middle. It's like Democrats and Republicans.

Think of it this way. A video editor and a 3D animator both buy the newest Macintosh. The video guy is probably going to buy a graphics card optimized for video and video capture and export (very expensive cards). The 3D guy is probably going to buy a graphics card that is optimized for 3D. The same computer, but optimized for different disciplines. It's really no different with cameras.

A big part of why the 5D2 was so successful was because of the video. I work in TV in LA, and everyone I know (and there are many), bought the 5D / 7D mainly for the video.

The market is evolving, and Canon needs to change with it.

Still photographers don't want the video and Video people don't need a huge mega-pixel count because it causes aliasing and line-skipping. As a video guy, I would be happy to have a 5d3 that took great video and good stills, but I don't need a 30 mega pixel image. That's way over kill for me. The opposite probably applies to a Still photographer.

As for the argument of "just go buy a video camera," that is such and OLD and DATED way of looking at things. That just sounds like something my Dad would say. Look at the new RED Epic, it's pretty small and not like a convential video camera. Try shooting cameras like the Red or the Panasonic AF 101 handheld. It doesn't work very well as it always needs some type of support because the size and ergonomic are terrible for hand held.

The DSLRs have their place in video for sure, especially when you need a small, portable camera which is great if you are shooting solo or with a small crew. James Cameron said in a recent interview that he's shooting an entire feature using 5Ds. So yeah, DSLR video is here to stay.

I think the Red Epic and the Scarlet and the DSLRs, all small cameras, are the way of the future. Who wants to film with a giant video camera when you can eventually have something that would do the same thing, but fits in one hand? I certainly don't.

But it's obvious that Canon cannot make both camps happy, so they should just do 2 versions of the 5d3.

Well golly gee, I wouldn't want to look at things in an OLD and DATED way or say something that your dad might say.

As for James Cameron, Peter Jackson is using a slew of Red Epics to shoot the Hobbit movies. Regarding the "giant video camera", go pick up a Panasonic HDC-TM700 (or 900). Mine is MUCH smaller than my Canon 5d  DSLR. Of course, so is its sensor. Furthermore, the focal length range of the XA10 and XF100 lenses is 30 to 300 and the Canon 28-300 is a certainly rather large and unwieldy.

And there is the issue of whether lenses thoroughly optimized for still photography should or can be re-purposed for videography. At the very least, there is the lack of speed-selectable power zoom.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 01:46:23 PM by Bob Howland »

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2011, 01:43:33 PM »

NormanBates

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2011, 02:21:50 PM »
please do not bring small sensor cameras to the discussion, there's absolutely no comparison, no matter how good the ergonomics are and how many features they have; if you insist, I'll have to tell you that a powershot is enough for what you do, and it has face recognition too!!


TV shows using DSLRs (albeit sparingly) already in may 2010 (too lazy to research it again, plus it's become more dificult to know about because it's not news anymore): house, 24, californication, true blood, ghost whisperer, how I met your mother, CSI miami
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2010/05/18/thoughts-on-house-finale/
http://philipbloom.net/2010/04/19/in-depth-interview-with-executive-producer-and-director-of-house-season-finale-shot-on-canon-5dmkii/
http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=3613
http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=3650
http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=3708

big budget films shot ENTIRELY (or almost) with DSLRs: I only know about one, "act of valor", $60M budget, shot by Shane Hurlbut ASC (whom you may know from Terminator Salvation)
http://www.freshdv.com/2010/05/conversations-bandito-hurlbut.html
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1591479/technical

small budget films shot ENTIRELY (or almost) with DSLRs: dozens
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?198927-DSLR-Feature-Film-List


I know big sensor videocameras are bound to replace DSLRs for most of these uses, as I said, it makes much more sense than trying to create a video-centric DSLR; just don't tell me this was small; or that this extra R&D had to be paid by photographers; movie productions using DSLRs are buying these cameras, fitted with L glass, by the dozen, and labeling all that as "consumables" (yes, I'd also like to go fish on their garbage cans)

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2011, 03:05:27 PM »
And how many professionals are using camcorders with 2/3", 1/2" and 1/3" sensors. There seem to be an awful lot of models listed at B&H under "Professional Video". Just how small does a sensor have to be to be considered "small"?

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Re: The Future of the 1Ds & 5D Lines [CR2]
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2011, 03:05:27 PM »