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Author Topic: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF  (Read 7200 times)

aroo

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Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« on: November 21, 2012, 01:21:46 AM »
Source: Serious lurking on this forum.

Observation: Two of next year's camera bodies will allegedly get entirely new naming systems: the high MP, and the 7D successor.

Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).

Question: If Canon does implement this tech in a 7D.2, could that APS-C camera produce lower noise at low ISO than current FF cameras?

I ask because I'm pretty invested in EF-S lenses but also very interested in a 6D. Low ISO IQ is the #1 consideration for me. Thanks for any thoughts or info!

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Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« on: November 21, 2012, 01:21:46 AM »

sandymandy

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2012, 02:40:57 AM »
Probably yes but i doubt they will make the APS-C line have less noise than the pro models. Alas i think Canon will just change the naming of their products first and we still have to wait some years til the come up with 180nm technology. By then they will likely start with a new FF including a new super duper hyper atomic exclusive sensor design.

p.s.

i wish canon would make rangefinders but then theyd have to reinvent all their AF lenses so it wont happen *cry*

Gothmoth

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2012, 09:31:27 AM »
Source: Serious lurking on this forum.

Observation: Two of next year's camera bodies will allegedly get entirely new naming systems: the high MP, and the 7D successor.

Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).


i doubt that next years aps-c sensors will be made using a 180nm process.

my wild guess is the high megapixel, high price monster will be the first camera to have a sensor made with a improved manufacturing process.

otherwise it would be complicated to put the needed stuff into the photosites of this 40+ MP camera and get the needed IQ quality.... i guess.

while the 7D and co. show that it is possible with the current 500nm process to produce such small photosites ... it is sure not optimal for a camera aimed at the high quality crowd.
 


 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 09:39:03 AM by Gothmoth »

Dylan777

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2012, 10:44:17 AM »
Source: Serious lurking on this forum.

Observation: Two of next year's camera bodies will allegedly get entirely new naming systems: the high MP, and the 7D successor.

Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).

Question: If Canon does implement this tech in a 7D.2, could that APS-C camera produce lower noise at low ISO than current FF cameras?
I ask because I'm pretty invested in EF-S lenses but also very interested in a 6D. Low ISO IQ is the #1 consideration for me. Thanks for any thoughts or info!

WISHFUL thinking, but count me in when the techonoly is here. By then, FF sensor should be noise FREEEEEE
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2012, 02:58:29 PM »
Source: Serious lurking on this forum.

Observation: Two of next year's camera bodies will allegedly get entirely new naming systems: the high MP, and the 7D successor.

Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).

Question: If Canon does implement this tech in a 7D.2, could that APS-C camera produce lower noise at low ISO than current FF cameras?

I ask because I'm pretty invested in EF-S lenses but also very interested in a 6D. Low ISO IQ is the #1 consideration for me. Thanks for any thoughts or info!
I doubt if we will see a APS-C camera with lower noise than a 5D MK III.  There is such a large difference, and improving noise by even 1/2 stop is a big deal.
If Canon actually is able to use a rear illuminated sensor as in their recent patent, then we might see a 1 stop gain, which would be huge.  I'm hoping to see that happen, it would likely appear in a 7D MK II first.
The 180 nm technology allows more pixels, but I doubt if it improves 18mp sensors by more than a tiny amount.
Canon is claiminng that they will have a 100% robotic assembly line.  Thats likely where development money is going.  Canon's strong point is low cost production of very good products, but not necessarily the best.  They can price lower than the competition and still make a larger profit.

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2012, 06:31:20 PM »
Yeah, less noise than the 5D Mark III is definitely wishful thinking.  The 6D appears to be improving significantly on the 5D, and it's notable in some situations, but for a better idea what a 7D to a Mark II improvement would look like, it'd probably be better to compare 5D Mark II images with the 5D III.  More time has lapsed since the 6D release but if the 7D releases in early quarters of next year it should be a roughly similar timeframe.

What I'm curious to know is whether there will be another APS-H system.  I'm not especially well set-up for one, lens-wise, but I would be able to get used to it, I'm sure.  If the sensor exceeded the 7D's resolution (or at least met it) taking into account sensor size differences, it'd be a worthwhile all-around upgrade, with the benefit of more light capturing ability and wider perspectives when needed, and by a fair margin.

APS-H reintroduction would also account for a new series name.

x-vision

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 07:04:50 PM »
Question: If Canon does implement this tech in a 7D.2, could that APS-C camera produce lower noise at low ISO than current FF cameras?

Even if the 7DII sensor is made on the rumored new tech, the best we can hope for is performance similar to the 1DIV and 5DII. 
Just consider that for 1 stop better ISO performance, the sensor needs to be 2x better, basically.

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 07:04:50 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 07:08:36 PM »
Even if the 7DII sensor is made on the rumored new tech, the best we can hope for is performance similar to the 1DIV and 5DII. 

Works for me, I'd preorder such a camera in a heartbeat (or, realistically, within a few hours of preorders being possible, which is what I did with the 1D X).
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wickidwombat

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 07:17:02 PM »
Even if the 7DII sensor is made on the rumored new tech, the best we can hope for is performance similar to the 1DIV and 5DII. 

Works for me, I'd preorder such a camera in a heartbeat (or, realistically, within a few hours of preorders being possible, which is what I did with the 1D X).

Ditto if the new 7D as an APS-C camera had IQ = to the 1Dmk4 it would be pretty awesome.
However I would not hold my breath for this being the case
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x-vision

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 11:04:49 PM »
Ditto if the new 7D as an APS-C camera had IQ = to the 1Dmk4 it would be pretty awesome.
However I would not hold my breath for this being the case

1DIV-level of performance shouldn't be all that difficult to achieve with a 1.6x sensor made on a newer tech.
Provided that MPs are kept in check, of course.

The question is, what will Canon do with the 7D successor.
Will they go for a more pro-oriented body or a more general-purpose body?

If the former, I could see the 7DII using an improved 16-18mp sensor, which I'm sure will match the 1DIV in image quality.

But Canon might as well decide to crank up the megapixels.
In that case, it's hard to tell if the 7D successor will be even called 7DII  :-*.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 12:38:19 AM by x-vision »

Marine03

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 12:50:47 AM »
Ditto if the new 7D as an APS-C camera had IQ = to the 1Dmk4 it would be pretty awesome.
However I would not hold my breath for this being the case

1DIV-level of performance shouldn't be all that difficult to achieve with a 1.6x sensor made on a newer tech.
Provided that MPs are kept in check, of course.

The question is, what will Canon do with the 7D successor.
Will they go for a more pro-oriented body or a more general-purpose body?

If the former, I could see the 7DII using an improved 16-18mp sensor, which I'm sure will match the 1DIV in image quality.

But Canon might as well decide to crank up the megapixels.
In that case, it's hard to tell if the 7D successor will be even called 7DII  :-*.

As long as we're talking 7D successor just look at the current line up, as rumors are stating 60D is dead, but lets face it minus 1fps the T4i is nearly a 60D. 

Im guessing the 7D2 will have its great new sensor, be 21MP and 10FPS  with a 43pt AF built in wifi and take SD cards.  End of story. 
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jukka

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2012, 06:43:43 AM »
Source: Serious lurking on this forum.

Observation: Two of next year's camera bodies will allegedly get entirely new naming systems: the high MP, and the 7D successor.

Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).

Question: If Canon does implement this tech in a 7D.2, could that APS-C camera produce lower noise at low ISO than current FF cameras?

I ask because I'm pretty invested in EF-S lenses but also very interested in a 6D. Low ISO IQ is the #1 consideration for me. Thanks for any thoughts or info!

There is no sign that Canon has invested money in a new sensor technology
What they can do is  to move the ADC closer to the readout points and improving the signal path way.
If there are any  improvements in the latest camera it is probably noise reduction and already in the raw file stage and in the red and blue channels.

Canon can not with their current technology make  small circuit solutions that other manufacturers can do today, for example Sony, Omnivision Aptina etc.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 06:53:32 AM by jukka »

aroo

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 01:25:10 PM »
Thanks, everyone. I understand now that read noise is much more limiting than sensor noise. My wishful thinking is due in part to the exponential performance increases we're constantly seeing in other technology fields. A system that's twice or ten times as good as one a few years old doesn't seem unreasonable these days.

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 01:25:10 PM »

Gothmoth

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2012, 05:07:01 PM »
There is no sign that Canon has invested money in a new sensor technology

because you have inside information what canon does and what not?
canons internals are an open book to you?

Quote
Canon can not with their current technology make  small circuit solutions that other manufacturers can do today

well there are plenty of different opinions in this other thread about the manufacturing process.
and chipworks stated otherwise too.

canon is doing smaller structures then 500nm actually.. but not for their cmos sensors yet.


i really donĀ“t think you have an full overview about what canon is doing.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 05:15:18 PM by Gothmoth »

jukka

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2012, 10:09:20 AM »
1. Canon needs to invest 1 billion to get a sensor line similar to Sony, this investment would be seen in Canon's corporate report and as an investment, public paper
2. Canon need to invest in Nikons steppers
3. Canon need to invest in a new lens from Carl Zeiss in order to expose a larger surface and with higher accuracy then they can now.

4. Scan or stitch smaller sensors together is not profitable=expensive
5.The only ones who use Canon sensors is Canon, and Canon sensor department internal debits 24x36 sensors at a high price/cost .
5. If you have read the other tread, you have already got the answers.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 10:11:58 AM by jukka »

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2012, 10:09:20 AM »