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Author Topic: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF  (Read 7132 times)

neuroanatomist

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2012, 10:51:57 AM »
1. Canon needs to invest 1 billion to get a sensor line similar to Sony, this investment would be seen in Canon's corporate report and as an investment, public paper
2. Canon need to invest in Nikons steppers
3. Canon need to invest in a new lens from Carl Zeiss in order to expose a larger surface and with higher accuracy then they can now.

Need to?  Why?  Are they behind in market share?  Failing to make a profit?  What's the corporate incentive that drives this 'need'?
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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2012, 10:51:57 AM »

jukka

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2012, 11:27:38 AM »
1. Canon needs to invest 1 billion to get a sensor line similar to Sony, this investment would be seen in Canon's corporate report and as an investment, public paper
2. Canon need to invest in Nikons steppers
3. Canon need to invest in a new lens from Carl Zeiss in order to expose a larger surface and with higher accuracy then they can now.

Need to?  Why?  Are they behind in market share?  Failing to make a profit?  What's the corporate incentive that drives this 'need'?



the question was:
Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).



the answers was : Canon can not with their current technology.  make  small circuit solutions that other manufacturers can do  for larger sensors. Canon  can do it for compact cameras small sensor but to make a 24x36 solutions  it will  costs a huge investment , and  if  it should be cost efficient ,ie without a stitch up or scanning solutions
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 01:28:37 PM by jukka »

jocau

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2012, 12:19:25 PM »
I'm also looking forward to the 6D (and will probably buy it). I'm just scared that the next APS-C sensors from Canon will be so good that they are better than the 6D sensor when it comes down to DR and low ISO noise.
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jukka

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2012, 01:25:25 PM »
I'm also looking forward to the 6D (and will probably buy it). I'm just scared that the next APS-C sensors from Canon will be so good that they are better than the 6D sensor when it comes down to DR and low ISO noise.

Why, in 8 years canon has stick to the same sensor solution in APS and 24x36mm and refined it  , why do you think Canon has a new APS tech going on?
IF they have, why not already in the 1DX? Canon's most expensive camera? Canon's flagship.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 01:30:38 PM by jukka »

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2012, 01:29:31 PM »
I get usable 12,800 Color and 25,600 B&W's out of my MK3. How much more ISO performance could one really need?!

That kind of performance in a APS-C sensor would be groundbreaking.

jukka

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2012, 01:32:33 PM »
I get usable 12,800 Color and 25,600 B&W's out of my MK3. How much more ISO performance could one really need?!

That kind of performance in a APS-C sensor would be groundbreaking.

Yep, 2,3 times better, not possible with todays Canons or others   tech

jocau

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2012, 01:35:26 PM »
I get usable 12,800 Color and 25,600 B&W's out of my MK3. How much more ISO performance could one really need?!

That kind of performance in a APS-C sensor would be groundbreaking.

Because every new month/year, is a month/year closer to new Canon sensor technology. And they have been lagging behind Sony sensors for quite some years now. So maybe they are almost ready to strike back...
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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2012, 01:35:26 PM »

jukka

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2012, 01:45:58 PM »
I get usable 12,800 Color and 25,600 B&W's out of my MK3. How much more ISO performance could one really need?!

That kind of performance in a APS-C sensor would be groundbreaking.

Because every new month/year, is a month/year closer to new Canon sensor technology. And they have been lagging behind Sony sensors for quite some years now. So maybe they are almost ready to strike back...

no sign of new sensor line, and it is impossible to make  a APS area  who are 2,3-2,5 times better than a 24x36mm sensor area  with todays  silicon solution, back light solution has not the same inpact as it have on a small 1,4 micron cell
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 01:48:15 PM by jukka »

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2012, 01:51:47 PM »
It would not make sense for them to release a APS-C camera that is equal to or better than the current FF sensors...  but if they did, it would be in the price range of the 1DX.

If they did have the tech to do it right now, why would they? there is not enough market pressure for them to discard possible profits and. they are still making money on the current tech...  it is dumb for them to not ride the gravy train!

Just my 2 pence! :)
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aroo

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2012, 02:06:56 PM »
I get usable 12,800 Color and 25,600 B&W's out of my MK3. How much more ISO performance could one really need?!

I'd like to be able to bump exposure of an ISO 100 image just a little bit during RAW conversion without all the shadows taking on lots of fixed pattern noise.

jukka

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2012, 07:00:14 PM »
I get usable 12,800 Color and 25,600 B&W's out of my MK3. How much more ISO performance could one really need?!

I'd like to be able to bump exposure of an ISO 100 image just a little bit during RAW conversion without all the shadows taking on lots of fixed pattern noise.

pattern noise and banding, you must cope with that as long Canon are not dealing with theirs read out problems.
Nikon D4, D3s etc can handle it and it with out any banding ,and  it  is a Nikon / Renesas solution and  close to 1dx.5dmk3 etc  with the read out structure and not a Sony solution as in D800, d7000  1dx  d600 with column wise  ADC at the sensor edge
We are some people who think Canon is sloppy regarding  the read out signal  and they can introduce a better solution to even out banding.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 07:03:52 PM by jukka »

ScottyP

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2012, 07:30:00 PM »
Source: Serious lurking on this forum.

Observation: Two of next year's camera bodies will allegedly get entirely new naming systems: the high MP, and the 7D successor.

Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).

Question: If Canon does implement this tech in a 7D.2, could that APS-C camera produce lower noise at low ISO than current FF cameras?

I ask because I'm pretty invested in EF-S lenses but also very interested in a 6D. Low ISO IQ is the #1 consideration for me. Thanks for any thoughts or info!
I doubt if we will see a APS-C camera with lower noise than a 5D MK III.  There is such a large difference, and improving noise by even 1/2 stop is a big deal.
If Canon actually is able to use a rear illuminated sensor as in their recent patent, then we might see a 1 stop gain, which would be huge.  I'm hoping to see that happen, it would likely appear in a 7D MK II first.
The 180 nm technology allows more pixels, but I doubt if it improves 18mp sensors by more than a tiny amount.
Canon is claiminng that they will have a 100% robotic assembly line.  Thats likely where development money is going.  Canon's strong point is low cost production of very good products, but not necessarily the best.  They can price lower than the competition and still make a larger profit.

We don't know if they "can" price lower than the competition.  We do know that they "don't." :P
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 07:37:34 PM by ScottyP »
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jukka

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2012, 08:38:10 PM »
They can not price the sensors lower than for example Sony if they will have the same tech.
Even today the sensors department with the old tech have a high internal price  for a  24x36mm sensor.
And Canon does not make the  whole assembly in-house,  it means that the sensor waffers are  packed dust free and transported to a collaborative partner from one clean room to another, which is time consuming and   expensive.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 08:54:37 PM by jukka »

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2012, 08:38:10 PM »

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2012, 02:57:35 PM »
interesting topic. 

It would not make sense for them to release a APS-C camera that is equal to or better than the current FF sensors...  but if they did, it would be in the price range of the 1DX.


I doubt APS-C can, at this stage, equal or better FF sensors.  But, I bet they can come close.  If they can come close then I could see the direction of the 7d2 being the smaller kid brother to the 1dx. I could see a body like that fitting in the range between the 6d and the 5d3. Canon has no reason to make an aps-c in the price range of a 1dx --- then it would be too much direct competion for 2 sports bodies.

If there is another body in the 1dx range my guess is it will be the big MP body, which would be in a totally different league than the 1dx.  Incredible res, much improved DR and low ISO performance, and far lower fps.  The 1dx would still be valid, only difference to canon is that only those that need what a 1dx would do would buy it, those printing giant landscape prints nad doing high level studio work can buy the big MP monster.
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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2012, 04:53:56 PM »
Even if the 7DII sensor is made on the rumored new tech, the best we can hope for is performance similar to the 1DIV and 5DII. 

Works for me, I'd preorder such a camera in a heartbeat (or, realistically, within a few hours of preorders being possible, which is what I did with the 1D X).
++ Works for me, I'd be all over that one!
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Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2012, 04:53:56 PM »