Large Sensor PowerShot? [CR1]

[dilbert]

Well it's more than just the sensor, the camera has to work, and based on the aweful G12 I've been messing around with I doubt they're on the right path.

The G12 is such an absolute piece of junk that I won't buy anything expect the absolute top of the range Canon again. I haven't owned such a useless camera since my very first Fed Zorki lll back in the mid 70's. How Canon created such a piece of junk out out what was an almost acceptable platform amazes me. My weekend with at the Montreal F1 GP was so tragic I just started laughing at all the pictures it missed, 19 out of 20, maybe 39 out of 40. No matter what I did to override its silly nanny habits it would still dwell and pause, missing every single bit of action, it was so stunningly useless that I'm actually amazed they sell any of them at all!

So, even if they put a bigger better chip in a pocketable camera, there is no guarantee that it'll be any use at all based on the disaster that is the G12!

Sorry to hear that. I hate to tell you that the G12 or any point and shoot is not suitable for action or sport photography. To shoot Formular One Grand Prix, You definitely need a Good DSLR with fast auto focus.

yeah that was user error i'm affraid, you got to know what your camera can do...  no compact (well except the GF3) has a fast shutter lag that can freeze sports..  you would need to use manual focus to stand a chance to capture such fast sports..  or as the other guy said, use an SLR...

If you know your sport, a compact can be used to take sports photos. Not likely to end up on the front cover of a magazine or front page (or back page!) of a newspaper, but they can be used.

[gmrza]

Well it's more than just the sensor, the camera has to work, and based on the aweful G12 I've been messing around with I doubt they're on the right path.

The G12 is such an absolute piece of junk that I won't buy anything expect the absolute top of the range Canon again. I haven't owned such a useless camera since my very first Fed Zorki lll back in the mid 70's. How Canon created such a piece of junk out out what was an almost acceptable platform amazes me. My weekend with at the Montreal F1 GP was so tragic I just started laughing at all the pictures it missed, 19 out of 20, maybe 39 out of 40. No matter what I did to override its silly nanny habits it would still dwell and pause, missing every single bit of action, it was so stunningly useless that I'm actually amazed they sell any of them at all!

So, even if they put a bigger better chip in a pocketable camera, there is no guarantee that it'll be any use at all based on the disaster that is the G12!

I understand your feelings, and see that you believe very strongly that the G12 is a piece of junk.

I own a G11.  Let us work on the basis that the G11 is functionally almost equivalent to the G12.  Actually, it lacks a few features that the G12 has, so it must be a worse piece of junk.

In that light, I would like to present the exhibits below, which prove what a piece of junk the G11 is.





My cousins' bulls were so offended by the lousy G11 that they threw anyone who tried to get onto their backs!

This last one is not a sports shot, but is further proof of just what a lousy camera the G11 is.



#sarcasm off

Seriously, my wife got much better shots of the bulls with the 5DmkII (oh sorry, that is also a lousy camera for sports).
I would not take a Powershot to shoot sports professionally, or to shoot professional studio portraits, or to shoot a wedding.
On the other hand, when you understand its limitations, a camera like the Powershot G11 or G12 can produce amazing results.
That said, I would probably never take a 5DmkII with on my bike as it would not fit in my backpack with my notebook and clothes.

When I want a camera that I can just pocket, without having to cart an entire backpack with me, the G11 gets my vote.  Yes,
it has shortcomings, but every camera on the face of this earth is a compromise.

It's all about horses for courses.

[neuroanatomist]

The G12 is such an absolute piece of junk...How Canon created such a piece of junk out out what was an almost acceptable platform amazes me. My weekend with at the Montreal F1 GP was so tragic I just started laughing at all the pictures it missed, 19 out of 20, maybe 39 out of 40. No matter what I did to override its silly nanny habits it would still dwell and pause, missing every single bit of action, it was so stunningly useless that I'm actually amazed they sell any of them at all!

Well, as we all know, the best craftsmen and artists blame their tools for a poor result.  Oh wait, that's wrong, isn't it? 

Thanks for the photoset, gmrza - nice demo of what a tool like the G11 can do in the right hands. 

[macfly]

gmzra, sorry, I simply don't belive you, those images could not have been captured intentionally with a G camera.

The images that came out might be nice, but they aren't the images that you thought you were taking when you pressed the button, because what you were looking at and trying to record happened half a second or more before these. In the first image you probrably wanted to freeze the horse mid air as it was jumping and in second you probrably wanted the guy who'se been thrown from the bull in mid air too. Oh well, thats a G for you.

I don't mean to call you a liar on a public forum, but I know that no G will capture a moving object with anything approaching precision predicability.

neuroanatomist, I do this for a living, but sometimes don't want to take my work gear to an event like the F1 GP when I'm just going to hang out with friends. There is an extensive set of images of car, boats and planes racing in the SPEED section of my website, and I have covered a lot of racing events for many magazines. www.macfly.com

[neuroanatomist]

I know that no G will capture a moving object with precision predicability.

There, I think you're wrong.  The G12 has a relatively long shutter lag - that's reproducible and quite predictable.  If you're shooting unpredictable action, that's a problem (even the short shutter lag of a Canon 1-series can be an issue in some situations - particularly for Servo AF; the deep DoF of a P&S obviates that issue, though).  But a grand prix race strikes me as a situation where the action is predictable - you have a feel for your shutter lag, then you press the button that long before the shot you want (ideally, having prefocused).  I've used that technique with good success with an S95.

Macfly, sorry, I know that was a little harsh.  I've looked through some of your portfolio previously, and there are some great shots there - you certainly know how to use your gear.  That's why it sort of surprised me that you found the G12 so limiting.  Granted, it's not a dSLR.  But it's not supposed to be - heck, my cheapest lens costs twice what a G12 does, and it can't even take a picture without a camera body...

Btw, back in November you were going to eBay your G12 in favor of a m4/3.  Why do you still have it?  If you do go that route, maybe we'll see a post about that camera being a piece of junk, too - the current offerings from Oly and Pano aren't much faster on the shutter than the G12.

[unfocused]

Well, as we all know, the best craftsmen and artists blame their tools for a poor result.  Oh wait, that's wrong, isn't it? 

Umm. You might want to take five minutes to look at Macfly's blog or website before you criticize his craftsmanship.

He's made it very clear in previous posts why he doesn't like the G12. Not trying to put words in his mouth, but as I recall, he indicated in the past that he feels the G12 was a step backwards from the G10, which he previously owned.

He's entitled to his opinion and I think he makes some valid points. I also appreciate that a photographer working at his level in the industry takes the time to participate in a forum like this and share his opinions.

I appreciate his opinion because it has helped me in considering whether or not to buy a G12. The downsides that he's mentioned in the past help me to evaluate the camera for my own needs.

[neuroanatomist]

The G12 has a relatively long shutter lag ... the current offerings from Oly and Pano aren't much faster on the shutter than the G12.

I just read about the solution - the new HTC Slide smartphone features an 8 MP camera with an f/2.2 lens, backside-lit sensor, and  "zero shutter lag to give an instant shot."  No more need for a separate camera... 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

gmzra, sorry, I simply don't belive you, those images could not have been captured intentionally with a G camera.

The images that came out might be nice, but they aren't the images that you thought you were taking when you pressed the button, because what you were looking at and trying to record happened half a second or more before these. In the first image you probrably wanted to freeze the horse mid air as it was jumping and in second you probrably wanted the guy who'se been thrown from the bull in mid air too. Oh well, thats a G for you.

I don't mean to call you a liar on a public forum, but I know that no G will capture a moving object with anything approaching precision predicability.

neuroanatomist, I do this for a living, but sometimes don't want to take my work gear to an event like the F1 GP when I'm just going to hang out with friends. There is an extensive set of images of car, boats and planes racing in the SPEED section of my website, and I have covered a lot of racing events for many magazines. www.macfly.com

I've also had people tell me a image could not have come from my point and shoot, and they called me a liar.  It certainly lowered my opinion of them.

My wife has a G11 which I occasionally use, it is a excellent point and shoot.  Yes, when taking action images, you have to anticipate what is going to happen and press the shutter a little early, but the ability to do that shows skill.  And, of course, you won't get as many perfect images as someone shooting 10 FPS with a 1D and then looking to see if he happened to get a good one.  I do that with my 1D MK III, but its luck more than skill when I get a perfect one.

[gmrza]

gmzra, sorry, I simply don't belive you, those images could not have been captured intentionally with a G camera.

<snip>

I've also had people tell me a image could not have come from my point and shoot, and they called me a liar.  It certainly lowered my opinion of them.

<snip>

The point I was trying to make is that, given an understanding of the limitations of the tools you are using you can achieve good results.

Macfly: with the horses, I achieved exactly what I wanted - the barrel races are totally predictable, because the course goes around the barrel.  After the first couple of riders, you can work out exactly when to release the shutter - give or take a bit, depending on your own reactions and the skill of the rider.  The bulls are a bit more tricky, because the action is much less predictable.  You do however still get an idea of when the rider is going to fall - the scary moments usually happen just around when he hits the ground.  Admittedly, my keeper rate was not as good as that of my wife, who was shooting with a 5DmkII - still not the ideal camera, but better.

There is no way you could guarantee a success rate necessary for professional action photography with a G series.  That doesn't make the camera a piece of junk.  Much the same way, I prefer to cut wooden sleepers with a circular saw, because I can rip cut a 2.4m long treated pine sleeper in seconds.  I don't have any idea how long the same job would take with a hand saw, and whether I could even cut a straight line that way.  That doesn't mean that my hand saw is a piece of junk.

Don't knock the tool if you are using it outside of its intended range of uses... If you manage to stretch the tool to its limits and get good results, enjoy the satisfaction!

The other point I wanted to make is to make the most of the tools you have, rather than complaining.  Which is why it is fun to leave the DSLRs in the cupboard sometimes and take out the G11.

Oh, and look at Neil van Niekerk's blog post about shooting a wedding with a Fuji X100!:
http://neilvn.com/tangents/2011/06/13/review-fuji-x100-photographing-a-wedding/
Great results - yes. Fun - absolutely yes.  Would he risk doing that for a paying client - never!

[dilbert]

gmzra, sorry, I simply don't belive you, those images could not have been captured intentionally with a G camera.

The images that came out might be nice, but they aren't the images that you thought you were taking when you pressed the button, because what you were looking at and trying to record happened half a second or more before these. In the first image you probrably wanted to freeze the horse mid air as it was jumping and in second you probrably wanted the guy who'se been thrown from the bull in mid air too. Oh well, thats a G for you.

See my prior comment about knowing the sport.

Let me put this another way ... the first time I went to a Formula 1 race with an SLR (before affordable DSLRs existed), I ended up with a lot of shots without cars because I was side on at a fast part of the track. Even though the shutter lag was very small, the cars are very very fast. In short, even though I had an appropriate tool, I didn't know the sport and thus I didn't get the shot.

A few years later I was at a Formula 1 with a compact digital camera (DSLRs were still neither affordable nor ready to replace film.) Armed with prior knowledge, I knew where to go in order to get the shot and what to do to make up for the camera's shutter lag in order to get the shot. And I got better shots (and video!) with the compact flash than I did with an SLR.

Thom Hogan recently had a shot on his web page with lions rubbing heads. He got the shot because he knew his subject in addition to having the right tools. i'm confident that he could have gotten the shot even if he'd been using a Nikon compact camera and not a DSLR.

[j7h]

I wouldn't wait for sensor costs per unit area to drop.  Silicon wafer processing don't drop very quickly, but the amount of stuff that can be put on to a wafer increases dramatically, hence our world of constant miniaturization.  A wafer with many small sensors can have quite a few defects and only a few of the die will be affected.  The same wafer with large sensors and with the same defect map would lose a few of the larger sensors, but the cost of the lost sensors is amortized over fewer good sensors.  It's a tough game to play in.

As for wanting a non-SLR to focus as well as an SLR, that's also very difficult.  The autofocus mechanism for SLRs and non-SLRs is quite different.  Here are links I found to a pair of really good descriptions of the operation of each type of focusing mechanism.  They do a good job of explaining why phase detection in SLRs is so much faster than contrast detection in non-SLRs.  The Java applets are fun.
http://graphics.stanford.edu/courses/cs178/applets/autofocusCD.html
http://graphics.stanford.edu/courses/cs178/applets/autofocusPD.html

Just chose the right tool for each job.

[macfly]

What a good link, thanks for sharing.

and here's my answer to the rubbish G12 - http://www.dpreview.com/news/1106/11063015olympusEP3preview.asp