October 01, 2014, 10:25:14 AM

Poll

What do you guys think are canon's most disappointing achievements this year? Choose 3, evaluate, and talk about what you think is coming

an overpriced ff 6d package
31 (14.9%)
tons of expensive is primes
31 (14.9%)
a 24-70f4 is costing about $1,500
28 (13.5%)
the pro l L primes are loosing to new zooms(24-70's), and the new Sigma lenses are coming out on top! (35mm 1.4)
13 (6.3%)
a very nice 1dx, but the extermination of a pro crop censor for wild life shooters.
7 (3.4%)
2new rebels in 1 year with a third on the way
5 (2.4%)
a curious mirror less eos m, with a second camera on the way, and only 2 lenses
15 (7.2%)
The combination of the 60d and the 7d, to make a combo, giving ameutures and pro's the same camera, no seperation
6 (2.9%)
The apparent idea of combining all the aps-c cameras, where all pros would have to move to ff, and soccer moms would get 20mp, 10fps, and a pro body and not to mention some crappy ef-s zoom
10 (4.8%)
The 3d/4d talk, but no results
12 (5.8%)
No word and long postponement of the 14-24 l and 200-400
25 (12%)
Canon is leaving the amateurs in the dark with no 7d ii or 70d, and no new ef-s lenses
25 (12%)

Total Members Voted: 108

Author Topic: Canon's roadmap  (Read 12053 times)

x-vision

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2012, 03:13:33 PM »
Canon have an inflated price structure ...

+1000.

Canon released very good products this year, actually.
But most (all?) of them are overpriced.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 03:17:17 PM by x-vision »

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2012, 03:13:33 PM »

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2012, 03:13:59 PM »
In 2012 Canon has disappointed me in the following order of magnitude (logarithmic scale!)
1) EOS-M ... underspecced, sluggish, consumer piece of crap
2) 5D 3 - weaker than D800 but  way more expensive
3) 6D - very dissapointing, underspecced, re-packaged 5D 2 instead of a "FF 7D"
4) NO radio ETTL RT receivers for 580EX II/430EX II
5) 24-70 II WITHOUT IS but whacko price 
6) ridiculously expensive WW lenses with IS I don't really need
7) still no kick-butt 14-24 2.8
8. no really decent new EF-S lenses ... especially no compact hi-end 50-150/2.8 IS
9) disappointing G15 .. useless
10) too big and too expensive G1X .. useless

ray of light:
1) EF 40 pancake ... NICE, love it!

SJTstudios

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2012, 03:33:37 PM »
A few thoughts about the poll options:   

an overpriced ff 6d package — wait 6 months to a year for the real price.

tons of expensive is primes — expensive primes are good primes, cheap one usually aren't; the new primes were eagerly awaited by many photographers; the real prices will be lower than the introductory prices.

a 24-70f4 is costing about $1,500 — high quality costs, but wait 6 months to a year for the real price; and the popular 24-105/4L is still available.

the pro l L primes are loosing to new zooms(24-70's), and the new Sigma lenses are coming out on top! (35mm 1.4) — pro L primes get replaced with better versions gradually (24/1.4 II, 85/1.2 II) but then people complain about the price; zooms and primes aren't in a war with one winning and one losing; they each have their advantages notwithstanding any particular updates in any particular year.

a very nice 1dx, but the extermination of a pro crop censor for wild life shooters. — 1.4X TC solves that problem; the 1DX has other benefits which outweigh any advantage of a 1.3X crop factor; wildlife shooters did very well before the 1.3X crop factor existed and will be OK after it doesn't.

2new rebels in 1 year with a third on the way — Rebels are fine inexpensive cameras; lots and lots of people like them and are happy to see more.

a curious mirror less eos m, with a second camera on the way, and only 2 lenses — Canon has to start somewhere in the mirrorless market; of course there will be more and better cameras and lenses on the way; no manufacturer has introduced a rich, full system all at once.

The combination of the 60d and the 7d, to make a combo, giving ameutures and pro's the same camera, no seperation — I don't understand the problem here, especially with eleven dslr's in the current product line.

The apparent idea of combining all the aps-c cameras, where all pros would have to move to ff, and soccer moms would get 20mp, 10fps, and a pro body and not to mention some crappy ef-s zoom — not clear what "combining" you're talking about; Canon currently offers eleven dslr's so if pros and amateurs can't find a suitable model, they must search elsewhere.

The 3d/4d talk, but no results — model names in rumor talk are meaningless; the results are the 5DIII and 6D and whatever models come next year and the year after that; and with eleven dslr's in the current model line what is missing?  I suppose a high-mp body, but surely that will come.

No word and long postponement of the 14-24 l and 200-400 — lenses are released when they are ready; meanwhile other great lenses are being released.

Canon is leaving the amateurs in the dark with no 7d ii or 70d, and no new ef-s lenses — new models are being introduced every year or two; just because something new doesn't get introduced this quarter doesn't mean people are "left in the dark"; again there are eleven current dslr's to choose from and 60+ lenses in the EOS system; if people "left in the dark" can't find a lens this quarter, they may be "in bright shining light" the next quarter.

In the end, there is no perfect camera company or camera system.  Something will always be missing or inadequate for someone's exact current needs.  If the grass is always greener elsewhere and the multitude of choices leave one "in the dark" and seeing doom and gloom, then maybe it's time to find another system.  I understand that some photographers may actually and urgently need a long list of new camera bodies and lenses and features that Canon isn't currently offering, but then I have to wonder why they got into the Canon system in the first place.

Thanks for the thoughts, I have my contradictions, and this could go on and on, but I'm just happy to hear new ideas :)

Area256

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2012, 03:48:16 PM »
Canon's road through the photography world has become very bumpy, and I think many people have gotten lost.
Please help the community, and comment, add, or correct.
I'm not going to vote on "Canon's most disappointing achievements this year" because it's been a fantastic year for new products.  Having used Canon for the past 10 years, I'm more pleased with Canon's new products than ever.  The new products rock, from cameras to lenses to flashes.  In a nutshell, the 5DIII, 24-70/2.8II and 600EX-RT have been game changers for me — they've each made my work better and easier.  And there are other products that have been absolutely delightful, such as the 40/2.8 and the 28/2.8 IS.  It would take me an hour to go into all of the details and how they make a difference.  I don't mind the higher prices because you get what you pay for ... improved quality and reliability.  Also, people still forget that the introductory price is not the price; the introductory price is only for those who must have it now.

+1

The 600EX-RT is an awesome new flash.  Even at the original high price it's cheaper and way way better than buying flashes and radio triggers.  No more running around to change flash power, or buying expensive TTL transmitters which half the time don't work.  No other manufacturer has this, and honestly it's worth every cent.

The 40mm f/2.8 is a great little lens.

People have lots of opinions on the 6D, but it did introduce build-in WiFi and GPS to the DSLR world (at a time when people say Canon only copies others).  And the 650D brought touch-screen to the DSLR world, and did it well - sure the pros may not care, but lots of people love it.

The only thing that I've been disappointed in, is the lack of 180nm CMOS chips.  Canon really needs to address shadow recovery, since that's something must companies are beating them in.

Over all I think Canon has turned out some very useful products, many of which can't be found else where.  Are some of the products failures, sure.  The auto-focus on the EOS M is a disaster.  However I'm far from writing off Canon because of that - every large company is going to put out some great products, and some duds given enough time.
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Zlatko

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2012, 04:09:44 PM »
In 2012 Canon has disappointed me in the following order of magnitude (logarithmic scale!)
1) EOS-M ... underspecced, sluggish, consumer piece of crap
2) 5D 3 - weaker than D800 but  way more expensive
3) 6D - very dissapointing, underspecced, re-packaged 5D 2 instead of a "FF 7D"
4) NO radio ETTL RT receivers for 580EX II/430EX II
5) 24-70 II WITHOUT IS but whacko price 
6) ridiculously expensive WW lenses with IS I don't really need
7) still no kick-butt 14-24 2.8
8. no really decent new EF-S lenses ... especially no compact hi-end 50-150/2.8 IS
9) disappointing G15 .. useless
10) too big and too expensive G1X .. useless

ray of light:
1) EF 40 pancake ... NICE, love it!

Obviously Canon isn't hitting anything on your wish list this year.   But each of those products is desired by and useful to someone else.

I did not get excited by the Eos M either.  Love the small size, but not the lack of viewfinder or speedy autofocus.  However, they make a ton of small cameras.  If they make one that I don't buy, I'm not going to be disappointed with the whole company.  The next version of the Eos M may be better; time will tell.

The 5D3 actually meets my needs much better than a D800 would.  For other photographers, the D800 is much better.  It all depends on their specific needs.  The price is actually quite close, about 10% more for the 5D3 at the big dealers, so I don't know where you get "way more expensive".

The 24-70 II is an outstanding lens.  It's so useful that I don't miss the IS feature.  What you call a "whacko price" is the price it needs to be in order to be as good as it is.  The price will likely fall 10% or more after the initial rush, so it will be near the price of the Nikon 24-70G.  Before the new 24-70 II, Nikon offered a better 24-70 workhorse lens.  Of course they did, but at a higher price.  Canon's original 24-70 was much cheaper (about $500).  No one complained about the wacko price of the original Canon 24-70, only the quality.  Had either company targeted their 24-70's for a more modest price, they no doubt would have been worse lenses.

The G15 and G1X are obviously quite good and useful to some photographers  — those who buy them.  Just because they don't meet your specific needs this year doesn't mean they are useless. 

I too love the 40mm pancake.  And yet there are photographers who call the pancake useless too.  They don't see the point of another 2.8 prime or any benefit to its compact size. 
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 04:14:00 PM by Zlatko »

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2012, 04:38:49 PM »
How is Tamron able to offer VC at $1,300, yet Canon couldn't offer it at $2,300???

Which lens has better IQ? Better AF? Which is weather sealed? Why does Tamron not offer those features?

I don't think that there is such a great difference in production cost for the extra features.  I suspect that the recent high prices are more to do with Canon not being able to make lenses in sufficient quantities to bring the price down - look at the delays in releasing new lenses (or for that matter, anything).

And Canon accessories are a joke. The 100L macro does not come with a tripod ring, and Canon want you to pay £130 for a cheap plastic ring with a couple of screws?  Similarly their macro rings are essentially identical to Kenko's, yet are several times the price.  And they omit basic features like an intervalometer (which used to be standard on G-series cameras), so that they can sell you a fancy external electronic shutter release for £100. They artificially limit simple software features like auto-ISO to make cheaper cameras less usable, and so on.

Canon make really nice cameras and lenses. But some of their marketing decisions seem to assume that there is no alternative. For many uses, that is no longer the case - particularly in the P&S and entry level DSLR spaces.


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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2012, 06:20:32 PM »
Wow, almost 40 people are unhappy with Canon's releases this year. I guess they are about to go broke.
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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2012, 06:20:32 PM »

that1guyy

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2012, 06:51:38 PM »
My biggest disappointment is with the lack of a Canon 70D and the supposed merger of the XXD line with 7D.

This leaves a $1,000 difference between the Rebel line and the supposed new line, which I assume will cost about $2,000.

I have a prediction of what Canon might do.

1) Introduce a higher end EOS- M for about $1000-1100. This will have faster AF, a grip/more pro body, higher FPS, more function buttons, better specs, similar to something like NEX-7. This will take the place of a current Rebel.

2) The new Rebel T5i will move up. It will have a new sensor for better IQ and noise performance. Slightly larger body than T4i but still smaller than 60D with a bit more aluminum and better weather proofing. Up to 6FPS, better AF system and possibly a second LCD on top. It will retain touch screen and tilt screen. Priced around $1300-$1500.

3) 7Dmark ii or whatever it is called. Aluminum Chassis, much better weather sealing. Shoots 10FPS. Much better AF system. Same new sensor as other crops. More inputs and better specs, viewfinder overall. It will have a tilt screen but no touch screen. Priced about $1800-$2000.

Note: the prices are all body-only.

Biggles

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2012, 09:45:43 PM »
Ignoring the overly-negative posts and the ones who can't seem to acknowledge Canon doing a thing wrong, I agree very much with what Interpilot and That1guyy have posted - there seems to be a glaring hole in the roadmap. Where did this rumour come from that the XXD and 7DII are going to be merged? Is it official from Canon? Because I can't understand how Canon can not address the enthusiast market in the approx. $1000-$1600 range. Looking at crop cameras, the T4i is a solid product. But based on Canon's recent history, I don't care how much of a fanboy you are, you have to admit that Canon seems to be milking every $$ they can with recent pricing, and so the 7DII will be expensive, probably pushing $2000 for most of 2013.

Now personally I am also in the category who was looking forward to the 70D body. I have a budget in the very low $1000 range. There is not a chance that I am going to pay for a 7DII, or even a 6D if its price drops $300-$500. Yet I am an enthusiast, with a small, nice collection of lenses, who has outgrown my 500D rebel and looking for something higher. I have money ready to buy early in the new year. The 7D is too heavy for me. I want a super-rebel, and was looking forward to the 70D being an improvement on the 60D, with the new 650D tech in it, plus hopefully a new, better sensor, and if lucky, MFA.

Surely there are other customers in the same situation as me? It looks like I have 3 options: 1) buy the 60D for a good price now and use it for a year while we see what happens. It looks a good camera. But I don't really want 2010 technology, I want something that is newer and will last me for some years. I also would like to get video auto-focusing, even though it is of moderate use, I still want the option. And the 60D doesn't have that. 2) Trust that the new mirrorless v2 will be fantastic, priced reasonably, released on time, and convince me to go mirrorless. 3) Change to a different brand.

I don't see that the next T5i will move up, since they need to keep the entry level camera cheaper and well under $1000. There is a chance that they could make the 7DII smaller and lighter and price it at the 70D level, with great features, to make a killer camera in that market area. That would be great, but based on current history I don't see it happening. Or the 70D being killed off could just be a rumour.

So here I am with money ready to buy, and I can't see that Canon is offering me anything. I've been a Canon user since 2002, but this is on top of the other rather annoying decisions Canon has made lately which the original poll covered (yes, they are debatable, but they certainly aren't winning fans by their decisions. They may be still able to keep their old fans.) What has Canon released lately that has made customers think 'Wow, I just have to have that product, that's a great buy'? And by great buy I mean a very good product that doesn't feel like it has been purposefully crippled in some small but key way, AND has a quite reasonable price, i.e. one that you can't wait to have in your hands to own, without the offsetting feeling of 'Ouch that cost a premium'.  I remember the excitement caused by the 7D, it was like they were trying to dominate an area of the market. I understand that in 6 months time, things may be different, so I guess my 4th option is just to wait with my 500D for 6 months and see if Canon announces something new in the pipeline. But the topic under discussion here is what do we think of the roadmap, so I think it is reasonable to ask questions and criticize without people just saying 'Nothing for you on the horizon, but stop whinging'.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:54:32 PM by Biggles »

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2012, 09:50:25 PM »
Wow, almost 40 people are unhappy with Canon's releases this year. I guess they are about to go broke.
;D

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2012, 10:45:07 PM »
In 2012 Canon has disappointed me in the following order of magnitude (logarithmic scale!)
1) EOS-M ... underspecced, sluggish, consumer piece of crap
2) 5D 3 - weaker than D800 but  way more expensive
3) 6D - very dissapointing, underspecced, re-packaged 5D 2 instead of a "FF 7D"
4) NO radio ETTL RT receivers for 580EX II/430EX II
5) 24-70 II WITHOUT IS but whacko price 
6) ridiculously expensive WW lenses with IS I don't really need
7) still no kick-butt 14-24 2.8
8. no really decent new EF-S lenses ... especially no compact hi-end 50-150/2.8 IS
9) disappointing G15 .. useless
10) too big and too expensive G1X .. useless

ray of light:
1) EF 40 pancake ... NICE, love it!

Obviously Canon isn't hitting anything on your wish list this year.   But each of those products is desired by and useful to someone else.

I did not get excited by the Eos M either.  Love the small size, but not the lack of viewfinder or speedy autofocus.  However, they make a ton of small cameras.  If they make one that I don't buy, I'm not going to be disappointed with the whole company.  The next version of the Eos M may be better; time will tell.

The 5D3 actually meets my needs much better than a D800 would.  For other photographers, the D800 is much better.  It all depends on their specific needs.  The price is actually quite close, about 10% more for the 5D3 at the big dealers, so I don't know where you get "way more expensive".

The 24-70 II is an outstanding lens.  It's so useful that I don't miss the IS feature.  What you call a "whacko price" is the price it needs to be in order to be as good as it is.  The price will likely fall 10% or more after the initial rush, so it will be near the price of the Nikon 24-70G.  Before the new 24-70 II, Nikon offered a better 24-70 workhorse lens.  Of course they did, but at a higher price.  Canon's original 24-70 was much cheaper (about $500).  No one complained about the wacko price of the original Canon 24-70, only the quality.  Had either company targeted their 24-70's for a more modest price, they no doubt would have been worse lenses.

The G15 and G1X are obviously quite good and useful to some photographers  — those who buy them.  Just because they don't meet your specific needs this year doesn't mean they are useless. 

I too love the 40mm pancake.  And yet there are photographers who call the pancake useless too.  They don't see the point of another 2.8 prime or any benefit to its compact size.
Zlatko, I am encouraged by your positive attitude towards things. Canon is one of many companies and they can't make products that fit all people or needs. To me this has been a good Canon year. I am not a long time photographer, I have gone through 400D and 60D and now have a 5D3 which to me is fantastic. But I do regret selling the 60D. I would have loved to have that now for the extra reach and also that I move around in places where the risk of robbery is quite high. I have other positives about it too regarding handling, image quality etc.

The 5D3 is perfect for me in all other aspects, it's such a great allround camera. Fast, reliable, accurate auto focus and other. It makes taking good pictures so easy. Now I am hoping to be able to fund the 70-200 2.8 IS with money I make from articles and pictures I sell.

I would like to address Biggles also, I can see what he's talking about, but this year has been packed with releases from Canon. The 60D is only a couple of years old so in no way could it have been a higher priority to replace than the 5D2. Let's hope they will launch a replacement next year. If they do, I might pick up the current 60D for a bargain.

Zlatko

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2012, 10:47:32 PM »
I remember the excitement caused by the 7D, it was like they were trying to dominate an area of the market.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.
The 7D is still a fine camera, as is the 60D, and they are both much cheaper than when they were introduced.  If I understand your argument, neither one is quite right or quite new enough for you.  But look at this from the manufacturer's perspective for a moment.  As big as they are, their resources are still finite.  They only have so many people and so many square feet for production.  They can't possibly fill every segment of the market at everyone's ideal time interval.  And therefore, some potential customers will always have a legitimate complaint that their particular needs aren't being met. 

In a perfect world that will never exist, every manufacturer would have a virtually gapless product line, with a new camera model at every $100 increment, and they would replace every camera and lens at a frequent pace so no product would ever be more than one year old.  No one would every have to buy 2-year old technology.  But that's unrealistic.  What we see is that some products get replaced often, some not so often, and every product is always at some stage of aging.  So we have questions like, Should I buy a camera designed in 2010? or Should I buy a lens designed in 2003?  And we have questions like, If Company A has a camera for $1100 why doesn't Company B have a camera for $1100? 

If such questions bother us too much, then we'll never be happy with any manufacturer.  And worse, we might have to switch brands every year or every season of the year, whenever a different manufacturer hits our particular "sweet spot" for price, features and newness.  And a manufacturer will always be faulted by someone who isn't being perfectly served at that moment.  If the 70D comes along exactly when you need, you'll be thrilled.  But someone who is looking to buy 18 months later may get terribly upset about the absence of a 80D in the market.  If a new lens you need comes in when you need it at the price you're willing to pay, you'll be thrilled.  But others will always be upset that the lens wasn't offered more cheaply, and others will be upset that it wasn't upgraded for a higher price point, while still others will be upset that it was introduced too soon or too late for them.  And everyone will be able to quite rightly say, Surely there are other customers in the same situation as me?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 10:52:28 PM by Zlatko »

Biggles

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2012, 11:22:27 PM »
@Zlatko: Fair enough, but my main point is not that I don't have a fresh new model (with just right specs) available for me right now when I would like it to be, but rather that the rumour is that Canon is not planning to make that model even in the future if it is true that there will be no 70D and so they will offer only T4i/T5i and 7DII as crop cameras. i.e. it is a hole in the lineup roadmap. If true, there is no point in waiting and being more patient for the 60D's replacement to come around - there will be no replacement.

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2012, 11:22:27 PM »

Zlatko

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2012, 11:45:29 PM »
@Zlatko: Fair enough, but my main point is not that I don't have a fresh new model (with just right specs) available for me right now when I would like it to be, but rather that the rumour is that Canon is not planning to make that model even in the future if it is true that there will be no 70D and so they will offer only T4i/T5i and 7DII as crop cameras. i.e. it is a hole in the lineup roadmap. If true, there is no point in waiting and being more patient for the 60D's replacement to come around - there will be no replacement.
Sorry I missed that.  I haven't followed that rumor, but I think I understand now. 

One thing to note is that model names themselves aren't predictive.  New models can involve upgrades and downgrades of features, build, size, etc., that don't necessarily go with their names.  Your 70D (or something close to it) may come with another name entirely, or it may not.  The 5DIII could easily have been called the 3D or the 1D5 or some other name.  And people wishing for a "3D" may find that, if it comes, it's not the camera they had in mind.  The frustrating thing about rumors is it's hard to be guided by them.

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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2012, 12:12:07 AM »
You left out the lens cap! Dude! Pay attention to all the important releases...
;)

+1 :)
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Re: Canon's roadmap
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2012, 12:12:07 AM »