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Author Topic: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?  (Read 16030 times)

Pinchers of Peril

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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 11:32:10 AM »
I'm a 5D III owner and looking for 2nd body. I thought 6D would be a good choice. After 2days using it, I decided NOT to have 6D as a 2nd body.

I'm thinking another 5D III or 1D X ;)

ha ha... getting a 1D X as a "2nd body" makes me smile and makes my wallet hurt
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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 11:32:10 AM »

Area256

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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 11:33:18 AM »
3. 6D is a bit smaller than 7D in my hand. It doesn't have the solid feel like 5D II, III, 7D etc...I feel like FF sensor in Rebel chassis.

It's small yes, but it's hardly a Rebel chassis.  The Rebel is all plastic, and not very good plastic at that.  It's somewhere between the 60D and 5D3/7D in build quality.  I'm quite sure it'll take more abuse than a Rebel or 60D, if not as much as a 5D3/7D.
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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 12:49:13 PM »
I am also worried about missing out on the advantage of having a cropped sensor. 

I signed up an account just to comment on this.  There is *no* advantage to a crop sensor.  How would you feel if you had FF camera, but the camera cropped the picture before it saved it to the card?  You would feel cheated!  Same deal, only it's a physical limitation.

Source:  I am a senior optical engineer.

Yes there is an advantage: the resolution of a sensor depends on the size of a pixel, the smallest image that can be resolved into two separated points is one where the distance is circa 2 pixels. The pixel on the 6D is 6.54 micron, that on the 7D is 4.3 micron. So, with the same lens on each body and iso noise not being limiting, the 7D can resolve a separation of 8.6 microns as opposed to the 13.08 microns on the 6D. So, the 7D has 48.8% more reach than the 6D, which is a huge advantage for bird photography and is why the 7D is so popular for nature photographers. I am waiting for the 7D II.
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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 12:59:45 PM »

3. 6D is a bit smaller than 7D in my hand. It doesn't have the solid feel like 5D II, III, 7D etc...I feel like FF sensor in Rebel chassis.

It's small yes, but it's hardly a Rebel chassis.  The Rebel is all plastic, and not very good plastic at that.  It's somewhere between the 60D and 5D3/7D in build quality.  I'm quite sure it'll take more abuse than a Rebel or 60D, if not as much as a 5D3/7D.

+1.  And being small and light isn't always a bad thing.  It's entirely dependent on the user preference.  6D being small and light has its merits.  Just asked those photogs that are tasked to carry their camera from morning till night.  Even a slight weight difference feels like heaven.  I had a lot of times where I shoot at least 3-4 hours straight (with 2 ultra-light lens, 28mm and 55-250 + external flash).  Although I find the IQ of a gripped 500D sometimes lacking, it's heaven compared to an un-gripped 5D2 that I was able to carry and shoot once for 3 hours (wedding + reception) (with a 24-70mm lens + flash).

neuroanatomist

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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 01:13:58 PM »
So, with the same lens on each body and iso noise not being limiting...

Unfortunately, my experience with the 7D in environments where/when I commonly shoot birds is that ISO noise often is limiting, in particular for the high shutter speed often necessary. 
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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2012, 01:24:55 PM »
So, with the same lens on each body and iso noise not being limiting...
Unfortunately, my experience with the 7D in environments where/when I commonly shoot birds is that ISO noise often is limiting, in particular for the high shutter speed often necessary.

For me (on 60d) the iso noise limit is in my head, that's the annoyance - next to exposure and framing I think about shutter speed/noise tradeoff all the time - either I get less keeper because of camera/motion blur, or the shots are crappy because of too much noise or too shallow dof.

Noise is not limiting when looking back at good shots, but few people state how many shots and opportunities they lost for a good one. That's why I'm really looking forward to a ff sensor. Realistically you can use higher iso even on crop when the final output size is not 100%, but for pixel-level 18mp iso800 is the absolute max that at least gives some air for postprocessing.

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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2012, 01:56:01 PM »
I am also worried about missing out on the advantage of having a cropped sensor. 

I signed up an account just to comment on this.  There is *no* advantage to a crop sensor.  How would you feel if you had FF camera, but the camera cropped the picture before it saved it to the card?  You would feel cheated!  Same deal, only it's a physical limitation.

Source:  I am a senior optical engineer.

Yes there is an advantage: the resolution of a sensor depends on the size of a pixel, the smallest image that can be resolved into two separated points is one where the distance is circa 2 pixels. The pixel on the 6D is 6.54 micron, that on the 7D is 4.3 micron. So, with the same lens on each body and iso noise not being limiting, the 7D can resolve a separation of 8.6 microns as opposed to the 13.08 microns on the 6D. So, the 7D has 48.8% more reach than the 6D, which is a huge advantage for bird photography and is why the 7D is so popular for nature photographers. I am waiting for the 7D II.

That's an advantage of pixel density, not sensor size.  There is no inherent advantage of crop sensors, but they do happen to CURRENTLY offer an advantage in pixel density if that's a plus for what you want to shoot.

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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2012, 01:56:01 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2012, 02:21:15 PM »
So, with the same lens on each body and iso noise not being limiting...
Unfortunately, my experience with the 7D in environments where/when I commonly shoot birds is that ISO noise often is limiting, in particular for the high shutter speed often necessary.

For me (on 60d) the iso noise limit is in my head, that's the annoyance - next to exposure and framing I think about shutter speed/noise tradeoff all the time - either I get less keeper because of camera/motion blur, or the shots are crappy because of too much noise or too shallow dof.

Noise is not limiting when looking back at good shots, but few people state how many shots and opportunities they lost for a good one. That's why I'm really looking forward to a ff sensor. Realistically you can use higher iso even on crop when the final output size is not 100%, but for pixel-level 18mp iso800 is the absolute max that at least gives some air for postprocessing.

Below are a pair of 100% crops from shots at ISO 3200, one from the 1D X and one from the 7D.  I wonder which is which?   ::)
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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2012, 02:30:26 PM »

3. 6D is a bit smaller than 7D in my hand. It doesn't have the solid feel like 5D II, III, 7D etc...I feel like FF sensor in Rebel chassis.

It's small yes, but it's hardly a Rebel chassis.  The Rebel is all plastic, and not very good plastic at that.  It's somewhere between the 60D and 5D3/7D in build quality.  I'm quite sure it'll take more abuse than a Rebel or 60D, if not as much as a 5D3/7D.

+1.  And being small and light isn't always a bad thing.  It's entirely dependent on the user preference.  6D being small and light has its merits.  Just asked those photogs that are tasked to carry their camera from morning till night.  Even a slight weight difference feels like heaven.  I had a lot of times where I shoot at least 3-4 hours straight (with 2 ultra-light lens, 28mm and 55-250 + external flash).  Although I find the IQ of a gripped 500D sometimes lacking, it's heaven compared to an un-gripped 5D2 that I was able to carry and shoot once for 3 hours (wedding + reception) (with a 24-70mm lens + flash).

-1 Rebel, xD and 5D,.....to me the weight of these cameras are not much different - in ounces? The lenses...yes. To have a snug fit camera in the hands is HUGE bonus.

Have you ever mount 70-200 on rebel Vs 7D or 5D? 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 02:34:16 PM by Dylan777 »
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Helevitia

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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2012, 02:48:52 PM »
Hey everyone :)  A lot of info.  I really appreciate it!

After going through everyone's posts, here are my thoughts:

1. bokehliciousness is my new favorite word :D

2. Some say they don't see a noise problem in my pictures.  That's because I shot at ISO 100(which still has noise on a 7D) and it is heavily processed in LR.  These are ideal pictures scenarios.  Bright light, low ISO, etc...Once it gets a bit darker, the noise is much more apparent. 

3. Thinking of moving objects(my daughter), I set my camera to AI SERVO, turned off IS and snapped away.  How would the focus on the 6D compare to this type of situation?  I would hope it would be better?  BTW, this was manually pressing the shutter button, not using burst.

4. I have thought of waiting for the 7DM2.  I hope it's not too far off, but in all honesty, if they pin it below the 6D, I can't see how the noise will improve much.

5. Is using LR to clean up noise an acceptable practice?  Does anybody really care if they like the picture?  Most people that look at my photos(all but one really) don't even notice things like bad shadows, noise, sharpness, etc..

6. As for the "advantage" of a crop sensor.  Don't take my words too seriously :)  I just meant that I get 1.6x vs. FF.  Call that a pro, con, whatever.  If I take a picture at 200mm with a 7D vs. FF, am I really getting a "closer" picture? 

7.  Again, the sharpness in my images are also improved in LR.  And again, I ask, is it acceptable practice to use PP for things like this? 

8.  Without LR, I wouldn't be able to get the images I want.  Sad but true.  LR has allowed me to achieve the pictures I want.

9.  I noticed someone mention the 6D will easily beat out the 7D in low light.  Thinking about that, I like to take pictures without flash whenever I can.  I like the natural lighting better.  I think the 6D is much better for this scenario.

10.  Someone mentioned the noise when taking bird photos.  I agree 100%, the noise is really noticeable.  If you look at bird pics on 500px, flikr, etc... they are so clean, I often wonder if I'm missing something.  I hate to say it, but I'm pretty anal about noise. 

I think I'm gonna hold off a bit longer.  Possibly buy the 24-70 II instead and see what happens in 2013 :)  As usual, I love this site and I appreciate everyone's feedback!  Of course, tomorrow I might change my mind and want to buy the 5D3 :D  I'm sure you all know how that goes  :P

I think I might take my 70-200 into a store, put it one both the 7D and 6D, take some pics and then take them home and compare.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 03:01:22 PM by Helevitia »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2012, 03:10:01 PM »
3. Thinking of moving objects(my daughter), I set my camera to AI SERVO, used all AF points, turned off IS and snapped away.  How would the focus on the 6D compare to this type of situation?  I would hope it would be better?  BTW, this was manually pressing the shutter button, not using burst.

The 7D will be better, IMO.  Higher density of AF points and all cross-type AF points both mean better AI Servo performance. 

5. Is using LR to clean up noise an acceptable practice?  Does anybody really care if they like the picture?  Most people that look at my photos(all but one really) don't even notice things like bad shadows, noise, sharpness, etc..

7.  Again, the sharpness in my images are also improved in LR.  And again, I ask, is it acceptable practice to use PP for things like this?

Of course.  All's fair in love, war, and post-processing.  Well, almost all - some photography contests restrict the amount/type of PP you can do, but NR is pretty much always fine.

6. As for the "advantage" of a crop sensor.  Don't take my words too seriously :)  I just meant that I get 1.6x vs. FF.  Call that a pro, con, whatever.  If I take a picture at 200mm with a 7D vs. FF, am I really getting a "closer" picture? 

You're not getting a closer picture.  A 200mm lens projects a subject on the focal plane at a given size, regardless of the sensor.  But as pointed out, current APS-C sensors generally have a higher pixel density than current FF sensors - that means more pixels on target with APS-C.  Whether that's a benefit for you depends on your output.  Comparing a 7D image to a 6D image cropped to the field of view of an APS-C sensor, the image quality will be at least equivalent, the 6D may be slightly better...but it will be a 7.8 MP image vs. an 18 MP image.  8 MP is sufficient for web, prints up to about 12x18", etc.  If you don't need to crop the image, the 6D will offer substantially better IQ.

9.  I noticed someone mention the 6D will easily beat out the 7D in low light.  Thinking about that, I like to take pictures without flash whenever I can.  I like the natural lighting better.  I think the 6D is much better for this scenario.

10.  Someone mentioned the noise when taking bird photos.  I agree 100%, the noise is really noticeable.  If you look at bird pics on 500px, flikr, etc... they are so clean, I often wonder if I'm missing something.  I hate to say it, but I'm pretty anal about noise.

The 6D (any FF sensor) gathers more total light - that means less noise at high ISO. I think my 1D X is about 2 stops better than my 7D, the 6D is likely at least 1.5 stops better.  Combined with a faster lens, that can make a big difference (provided you have enough DoF).

Of course, tomorrow I might change my mind and want to buy the 5D3 :D  I'm sure you all know how that goes  :P

As a general purpose camera, I think the 5DIII is a much better choice than the 6D.  I believe that you'll find the 7D to 6D to be a step up in image quality, but step down in AF performance for moving subjects and in build quality.  A 5DIII would be a step up across the board.
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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2012, 03:15:53 PM »
Below are a pair of 100% crops from shots at ISO 3200, one from the 1D X and one from the 7D.  I wonder which is which?   ::)

I could guess because I know crappy 18mp iso performance :-p ... but as written above, downsize that to forum web size (like 800px wide) and ask again... that's why I say iso performance has to be considered in relation to final output size, though I admit I'm a pixel peeper and have a hard time convincing myself.

A 5DIII would be a step up across the board.

... at least until you try to shoot with af assist, the issue has neither been identified nor solved.

Helevitia

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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2012, 03:25:30 PM »
Thanks neuroanatomist, I appreciate all of your responses :)

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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2012, 03:25:30 PM »

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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2012, 03:27:47 PM »
The 5D3 is a 7D w/ a full frame sensor but better.

The 6D is a Repackaged 5D2 with Wifi/GPS.

The 5D2 was a 20D with a FF Sensor.

If you love everything about your 7D, Get a 5D3.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2012, 03:34:38 PM »
Below are a pair of 100% crops from shots at ISO 3200, one from the 1D X and one from the 7D.  I wonder which is which?   ::)

I could guess because I know crappy 18mp iso performance :-p ... but as written above, downsize that to forum web size (like 800px wide) and ask again... that's why I say iso performance has to be considered in relation to final output size, though I admit I'm a pixel peeper and have a hard time convincing myself.

Ok...how about now, with the original full images downsized?  I know that I can certainly tell them apart, even at 800x533.
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Re: Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2012, 03:34:38 PM »