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Author Topic: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?  (Read 30553 times)

moreorless

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2011, 06:11:39 PM »
Nikon's way, as I understand it, is smarter.

It released the D3X with high resolution for those who need / want it, and a full year later the D3S with half the resolution for those who don't.

Nikon are only offering that choice right at the top of the range though were as Canon are offering something similar(obviously half crop) at 1/3rd  the price(and almost 2/3rds the weight) with the 5D mk2/7D.

Personally I feel that the MP race on crops may well be reaching its limate, I'm sure things will go past 20 as the numbers just too strong a draw but beyond that I see either ISO/Video or something new being a factor.

On FF though I'd say the race is far from over, at the very top end I'm sure both Canon and Nikon will want to close the gap with the 645D. Lower down we may see a spilt with a seperate Canon ISO/speed 5D/3D but I think there are alot of amature users who'd welcome 40 megapixels, espeically with the cost of large prints dropping all the time

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2011, 06:11:39 PM »

UncleFester

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #106 on: July 17, 2011, 01:15:08 AM »


On FF though I'd say the race is far from over, at the very top end I'm sure both Canon and Nikon will want to close the gap with the 645D.

They can want,  but I'm sure they know they'll have to increase sensor size as well. Different beasts all together.

macgregor mathers

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2011, 08:47:15 AM »
Nikon's way, as I understand it, is smarter.

It released the D3X with high resolution for those who need / want it, and a full year later the D3S with half the resolution for those who don't.

Nikon are only offering that choice right at the top of the range though were as Canon are offering something similar(obviously half crop) at 1/3rd  the price(and almost 2/3rds the weight) with the 5D mk2/7D.

The Nikon D3S has 12MP, half that of the D3X. The Canon 7D has 18MP, 85.7% that of the 5Dmk2.

Beside the rather small difference in resolution, the 7D is (as you noted) a crop camera, with all the baggage that comes with it.

Lawliet

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2011, 09:28:37 AM »

On FF though I'd say the race is far from over, at the very top end I'm sure both Canon and Nikon will want to close the gap with the 645D. Lower down we may see a spilt with a seperate Canon ISO/speed 5D/3D but I think there are alot of amature users who'd welcome 40 megapixels, espeically with the cost of large prints dropping all the time

If you want MF quality you have to deal with the AA filter first.  Whats the point in recording frequencies that have been mangled?

On a related line I don't see many amateur users how could use 40MP. Prints are cheap(have been for quite a while, 24" or 36" printers are in the same price bracket as a single lens for that resolution.), but good tripods aren't, and they aren't only a financial commitment, but also in terms of handling. Affordable flashes that actually stop motion? IGBT switching doesn't help if you need power, so we're back at bank breaking.
How many amateurs have&use that kind of equipment? Gives you a good idea of reaping actual benefit vs. numbers game.

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2011, 10:42:10 AM »
Whats the point in recording frequencies that have been mangled?
What's the point in having an AA filter in the first place, then?  Why do all the manufacturers use them on all sub-MF bodies? ;)

Luminous-Landscape has an interview with a Pentax rep from the trade show in Japan where the 645D was introduced.  Moire was already a concern for them with the 645D.  For many sorts of photographs, lacking an AA filter would simply be a horrible idea (the usual "Wall of Shame" and cityscape test photos more urban-based photographers do would have some obvious moire problems).  MF backs usually had less well-developed technology and so AA filters were one less thing to worry about - for the most part they overpowered the problem of false details and false patterns with more resolution.

Anyhow, the whole "megapixel war is bad" issue is overstated.  With the significant exceptions of bigger monitors needed for 100% display sizes, and all the data bloat related problems that come with bigger pixel counts, increasing pixel counts has been generally a good phenomenon.  Nikon's one big weakness so far has been that they are reliant on others for sensors to a degree that Canon and Sony (for example) aren't - so comments from Nikon like that they are looking for "a better balance" between resolution and ISO is sheer marketing deception at worst when they are reliant on Sony (who has, remember, the Alpha line) for sensors.

Lawliet

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #110 on: July 17, 2011, 10:59:30 AM »
Whats the point in recording frequencies that have been mangled?
What's the point in having an AA filter in the first place, then?  Why do all the manufacturers use them on all sub-MF bodies? ;)

Cutting the spectrum at nyquist's limit. Not  below it. The latter is where the mangled mess comes from.
Look at files from an E-5 for example...better then the artifacts introduced by raising local contrast back up.

jseliger

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #111 on: July 17, 2011, 03:06:34 PM »
I'm surprised no one (to my knowledge) has linked to this Ars Technica article on the supposed end of the megapixel war. Some people obviously need more, but I think the larger point is that those people comprise a smaller and smaller part of the overall camera-buying population. I've seen the various articles about how the iPhone is now the most used "camera" on Flickr, Facebook, and so forth.

I have a 3GS that I used to take the picture that appears in this links post simply because I happened to have the camera on me. Sure, I usually have a Canon SD 800 in my pocket most of the time, and a gifted Rebel XTi that comes out for occasions and sometimes for dirty pictures, but for a lot of purposes any of the three is "good enough" in terms of megapixel count.

I'd rather have the dynamic range, aperture, and so forth, than more megapixels. That's not to say I'd gratuitously turn down more, but, say, 10 as opposed to 15 megapixels doesn't bother me. If you said, "You can have pretty much any camera you want today," I'd probably choose an s95 because it's easy to carry and I'm likely to have it with me.

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #111 on: July 17, 2011, 03:06:34 PM »

Lawliet

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #112 on: July 17, 2011, 04:07:08 PM »
I'd rather have the dynamic range, aperture, and so forth, than more megapixels. That's not to say I'd gratuitously turn down more, but, say, 10 as opposed to 15 megapixels doesn't bother me.

Thats where I like double blind tests - e.g. I printed pictures from the same shooting but taken with different cameras in large format. Ask unsuspecting (but not inexperienced) Audience to judge image quality. Conclusion: 12 or 21 MP, it doesn't matter.
For dynamic range, try processing video shot with a 5D2 right after your worked with footage from say an arri alexa. I want the same DR for photography. 8)

WarStreet

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #113 on: July 17, 2011, 05:04:26 PM »
I'm surprised no one (to my knowledge) has linked to this Ars Technica article on the supposed end of the megapixel war.


That article is a "copy and paste" you read all over the web in forums from guys expressing their opinion and not necessary knowing the technical aspect of the subject.

The description of the author on that website:

Chris Foresman
"Karaoke Wizard"
et Contributing Writer
Chris is a high-functioning high school and college dropout. A modern-day Renaissance man, he has spent time releasing indie records, selling shoes, making copies, designing t-shirts, taking photographs, teaching graphic design, providing tech support for Linux webhosts, and generally raising a ruckus. Now a full-time tech-writing idiot savant, Chris has written about music, photography, vegetarian dining, and of course Apple. In his free time he enjoys watching movies, shopping at Target and IKEA, singing karaoke, eating brunch, and drinking beermosas.


As I have said previously in this thread, it is true that the more technology improves, the more it reaches or surpasses the needs of users and it is applicable for every spec, not just for MP count. That's why good companies like Canon improve on all aspects of the technology so to accommodating different needs and avoiding bottlenecks.

moreorless

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #114 on: July 18, 2011, 01:54:07 PM »


On FF though I'd say the race is far from over, at the very top end I'm sure both Canon and Nikon will want to close the gap with the 645D.

They can want,  but I'm sure they know they'll have to increase sensor size as well. Different beasts all together.

Theres never going to offer the same thing I agree but if say the Canon IDs mk 4 has 30+ megapixels that is likely to mean the draw towards a 645 is a little less strong than if it only has 25.

Lawliet

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #115 on: July 18, 2011, 01:59:02 PM »
Potential 645 customers know what they are doing, should be beyond falling for catalog numbers.

moreorless

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #116 on: July 18, 2011, 03:47:42 PM »
Potential 645 customers know what they are doing, should be beyond falling for catalog numbers.

For a sizeble number of people though I'd guess its not going to be cut and dry whether to move up to MF and more Megapixels on FF is one reason not to.

I don't think you can rule out the effect of the growth in MF on the amature markets view of whats desireble either, even if its not actually an option for people.

WarStreet

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #117 on: July 18, 2011, 03:56:44 PM »
I won't rule out the possibility of a 1dsIV with 40mp, but still it won't resolve the same detail of a 40mp MF, using bigger lenses.


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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #117 on: July 18, 2011, 03:56:44 PM »

Rocky

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #118 on: July 18, 2011, 04:59:57 PM »
Potential 645 customers know what they are doing, should be beyond falling for catalog numbers.

For a sizeble number of people though I'd guess its not going to be cut and dry whether to move up to MF and more Megapixels on FF is one reason not to.

I don't think you can rule out the effect of the growth in MF on the amature markets view of whats desireble either, even if its not actually an option for people.

I hope we are not starting the same debate about Leica VS Hasselblad in the film days again.
MF in digital will give better picture, especially in large enlargement due to the larger size of individual pixel and hence lowe rnoise, better dynamic range. However, the size weight and cost will make most people, including professionals think twice before jumping into it. Just look at the price of the lenses and digital body of Hasselblad.
On the other hand, FF will give you much better mobility and cost saving. So MF is for amature with super deep pocket and with an assistant.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 08:18:47 PM by Rocky »

moreorless

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #119 on: July 18, 2011, 08:27:26 PM »
I hope we are not starting the same debate about Leica VS Hasselblad in the film days again.
MF in digital will give better picture, especially in large enlargement due to the larger size of individual pixel and hence lowe rnoise, better dynamic range. however, the size weight and cost will make moat people, including proffessionals think twice before jumping into it. just look at the price of the lens and digital body of Hasselblad.
On the other hand FF will give you much better mobility and cost saving. So MF is for amature with super deep pocket and with assistant.

I'm not really debating the merits of each system so much as speculating the impact a growth in digital MF might have on FF.  A high end Hasselblad is obviously something totally different but the 645D is getting into the same kind of ballpark as a 1Ds so on some level its competision.

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Re: Will Canon Withdraw from the Megapixel War?
« Reply #119 on: July 18, 2011, 08:27:26 PM »