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Author Topic: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]  (Read 18169 times)

Tarrum

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2011, 05:12:18 PM »
The last time a certain camera line changed its sensor? Right, just like the 7D probably won't go FF, that would be ridicolous.

But even if the 1Ds and 1D merge, how is 1 model going to compete with 3 Nikon models, D4, D4x and D4s (if they decide to put them out like that again). I don't think we're going to see a merge so soon, if at all. And the 5D Mark III is probably going to compete with D800.

As before, 1Ds line came first, then the 5D was announced a few months later with the same sensor. I'm betting on 1Ds MK IV this year, then perhaps the 5D late or early 2012 and 7D at Photokina.

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2011, 05:12:18 PM »

RandomDude

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2011, 05:35:21 PM »
I registered just to throw out an idea I've had for awhile about these rumors, and this seemed like an appropriate time to lay it down and see what you folks think of it:

Recurring rumor: "3D" camera between 5D and 1D.

Recurring rumor: 1D and 1Ds lines merging

Given the advancements in CPU's over the past several years, there isn't any reason I'm aware of that Canon couldn't produce a Digic V with enough horsepower to produce a 40+ MP camera at 8+ fps with a 1.3x crop mode at 24+ MP and over 10 fps.  So a full-size, dual-chip (and/or multi-core) combined 1D/1Ds flagship camera ought to be technically feasible.  Let's call this one the 1Ds MkIV.  However, marketing might be an issue, but that's been discussed elsewhere.

The "3D" name is problematic, as is often pointed out, but many (myself included) think there's a market for a camera in this slot.  Create a grip-less version of the 1Ds body, with the same AF, fully weather-sealed, same FPS (give or take) but lower resolution. (Lower resolution means fewer and/or slower processors = good battery life despite losing the grip.)   Call this the 1D MkV and price it slightly below the current 1D price-point.  No silly "3D" name, but it fills the market slot for the proposed 3D and the 1D market that isn't covered by the new 1Ds.  It also covers the folks that want a full-Pro camera, but don't want the extra size and weight of the current 1D/1Ds-size cameras.

I don't expect any re-shuffling on the 5D's market space, it seems to sit in a pretty good place.  If there is a "Video" version, I would expect it to be a fairly minor ergonomic deviation - an "edition" - rather than substantially different hardware.

Full-frame 7D doesn't make sense, but my proposed 1D MkV/"3D" would fit a similar slot.

If Canon has something special cooking, the 1Ds MkIV would be the logical place for it to go, both technologically and from a market standpoint.  That is, if the 1Ds IV used a SiOnyx sensor (for example) to give it better image quality that would also better distinguish it from the less-expensive cameras (and might explain the unusually-long delay between updates.)  Just my amateur armchair analysis...

TL;DR?  "3D" gets called the new 1D MkV and while the 1D/1Ds lines merge as the new 1Ds Mk IV.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 05:37:17 PM by RandomDude »

J-Man

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2011, 07:51:32 PM »
I can see the 7DII gaining 1D features and an increase in price bur remain 1.6x, with the 70D moving up market position.

1DV as a FF high fps pro body is believable, it's harder to say what will happen with the 1DsIII replacement,
will it be a 1 series? or some new line, how about the "EOS Ω" "Your search for the ultimate camera has ended."

5DIII will have better ergonomics, and they will have actually put some thought into where the buttons will go for video, it may gain some modularity in the video version.

I still think there is a market for a 3D, a 1DsII the size of a 5D but with current controls and lcd, and a refreshed sensor.

The big question:
Will the Pellicle mirror return?
APS-H in an EVIL/iLC like the G12?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 07:58:25 PM by J-Man »

NXT1000

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2011, 11:16:54 PM »
7D mk 2 full frame, what the hell are they smoking, they rumors mongers.

Even if there is such a camera, the naming convention should change too.

7D EF-S OK
7Dmk2 EF-S NOK? This is massively confusing for most end user.

It will not happen.

But timing of 5dmk3 coming mid next year sound pausible.

ronderick

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2011, 11:18:34 PM »
IMHO, while Canon can enjoy the waiting time until either:

1) Nikon plays its next card in the D700/D3s categories, or
2) Q1 of next year.

Why Q1? There's that big thing in London next summer, so I doubt the waiting game can outlast the competition for the lines of pro-photographers at the sidelines. Q1 because it will take some time to make sure those photographers get the new gadget.

Either way, with or w/o any release this year, Canon and its competitors will need to show hand sometimes before the Olympics. For Canon, it should be either the 1DsIV or 1D5-merged-line (though I'm tending towards the 1DsIV).
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bycostello

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2011, 04:05:04 AM »
a 7d with full frame sensor will be called 5dmk3...

Bob Howland

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2011, 09:16:54 AM »
A FF 7DMk2 qualifies as crazy. There are good reasons for using a crop camera for shooting sports, wildlife etc with long lenses in good light

Agreed.  The same logic holds true for the APS-H format, where excellent high ISO performance and a fast frame rate are coupled with a modest crop factor.  I see the logic of merging the 1Ds/1D lines IF they can manage 10 fps with the FF sensor.  A high enough pixel density on the FF sensor would allow for sufficient MP in a 1.3x simulated crop, but that would mean at least 16 MP in the crop, more likely 20 MP for a reasonable 'improvement' over the 1DIV.  So, the FF sensor must be at least 33 MP to support a 20 MP 1.3x crop.  If they add in a 1.6x crop mode, that only yields 12.6 MP, so I doubt they'll bother.

As has been stated, they could merge the lines to deliver high MP, low fps and lower MP, high fps in a single body.  Could does not mean will.  There's a certain caché for the flavors of the 1-series.  Also, if they do merge the lines, the price point will almost certainly be set based on the 1Ds-like features - probably even higher, since this would ostensibly be better than the 1Ds in that it would offer a fast frame rate option.  That would leave a really big gap in the lineup between a (hypothetical) 5DIII in the $3K range and the new 1Dm (merged) in the $8K range, a place formerly held by the 1D in the $5K range.  Maybe a place for a 3D (but I still don't see them using that number for anything except a 3-dimensional camera).

I have a couple problems with in-camera cropping. If the FF camera can go 10FPS and cropping to APS-H doesn't speed things up, then why crop? Sure the file size will be smaller but, in this day and age of 600X CF cards, so what? Also, if the camera is going to crop, I want the viewfinder masked so that the crop area is glaringly apparent. This is also true for in-camera video cropping, which I think is going to happen really soon.

The big advantage of a dedicated crop camera, APS-C or APS-H, is that for a given price and resolution, it can be faster and, for a given speed and resolution, it can be cheaper. The tradeoff, in both cases, is that more light is required to get a good image, which is why I specified "in good light".

APS-H always seemed like a bad compromise. (Obviously, a lot of people disagree.) I'd rather have a FF 8FPS, 16MP lord of darkness camera and a 12FPS, 16MP APS-C sports speed demon than a couple 10FPS, 16MP APS-H cameras. Currently, I use a 4-year old 40D and 6-year old 5D; both are getting near their end of life.

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2011, 09:16:54 AM »

motorhead

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2011, 10:22:10 AM »
It might sound odd, but I have been completely forgetting about the "London Olympics" when thinking about the cameras Canon are likely to release next.

Did'nt the 1D got updated in time for the last Winter Games which I imagine means it's OK as it stands? But the 1Ds is a completely different kettle of fish, its so ancient it needs a walking frame. It MUST be getting a new lease of life (or a replacement) before the Olympics actually start! And I for one will be seriously annoyed if 32mp is all we see in the "merged 1D line" when other manufacturers will be offering 40 or more mp.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 10:25:10 AM by motorhead »

Stone

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2011, 04:00:01 PM »
If there is a 1D1V replacement in the pipeline and I still have my doubts about that, it would definitely be announced and released before the 2012 Olympics, Canon wouldn't miss the opportunity to have it's new sports flagship in the hands of all those photogs, you just can't buy advertising like that.  I'm sure all the new long primes will be ready for the Olympics though.

As for the merging of the 1 series, how do you market a more than likely 6-8K body that competes against both a cheaper D4 & equally priced D4x.  That wouldn't be much incentive for me to switch if I were a Nikon shooter, there has to be a new model in there somewhere for this strategy to work.  You just can't go from a 2.5K 5 series body to a 6-8K 1 series body with no intermediate upgrade.  Canon NEEDS 3 FF bodies going forward to be competitive, but I still think they're at a disadvantage if Nikon manages to nail video this time around.

5DIII vs D800:  Assuming Nikon gets comparable video, the D800 still has a large af & fps edge and I don't see that changing  Canon's just too conservative with those features.  In the past, the D700 has always been the better value of the two, it's the closest thing to a do it all camera in this price range.

1DV vs D4:  A FF 1DV is probably a wash against a new D4.  Comparable size, weight, af & fps.  It probably boils down to how much you have invested in glass from either manufacturer.  I don't see either stealing customers in this price range.
 
1DsIV vs D4x:  Prices are both similarly high, D3x is currently the high iso, dynamic range champ so Canon is already playing catch up here.  However; these customers generally want the best they can get short of moving to MF and they can likely afford to switch systems more easily than us mere mortals but only if Canon can exceed the stellar performance of a new D4x which won't be easy.  I still think it boils down to how much glass you own and that not many will switch in this market either.

A FF 7D makes absolutely no sense.  If the rumor called for an APS-H 7D, then I could see the possibility because then the 70D could adopt many of the features found in the current 7D.   The 7DII could move up a bit and wouldn't step on the toes of the entry level 5D FF, I actually like this scenario very much.  Plus the IQ of APS-H is very, very good, comparable to FF in many cases.  I can't see Canon shelving APS-H even if they've made great progress on APS-C & FF sensors. 
5D III gripped | 7D gripped | 35L | 24-70 2.8L II USM | 70-200 2.8L IS II USM | 85 1.8 |

Bob Howland

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2011, 06:42:13 PM »
I can't see Canon shelving APS-H even if they've made great progress on APS-C & FF sensors.

Where is the Canon ultra wide angle lens for APS-H, the one that corresponds to the 16-35 for FF and the 10-22 for APS-C?

Stone

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2011, 09:43:43 PM »
I can't see Canon shelving APS-H even if they've made great progress on APS-C & FF sensors.

Where is the Canon ultra wide angle lens for APS-H, the one that corresponds to the 16-35 for FF and the 10-22 for APS-C?

APS-H has always been a specialty sensor exclusive to Canon's defacto high performance sports body.  More than likely, there's not been enough demand by sports photogs and people who require such performance for an ultra wide angle solution.

APS-C & FF buyers shoot everything from a to z hence the need for an ultra wide-angle solution.  A better question would be when is Canon finally going to go true ultra wide and release a 12 or 14 mm zoom....
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Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2011, 11:35:44 PM »
APS-H has always been a specialty sensor exclusive to Canon's defacto high performance sports body.  More than likely, there's not been enough demand by sports photogs and people who require such performance for an ultra wide angle solution.


APS-H cameras
1.3ׇ — Canon EOS-1D Mark IV, 1D Mark III† , 1D Mark II† (and Mark II N), EOS-1D?, Kodak DCS 460†, DCS 560†, DCS 660†, DCS 760†, Leica M8, M8.2

My Kodak DCS 460 which sold originally for $35,000 was APS-H before Canon ever made digital SLR's. A 6.2 mp sensor in 1995 was astounding technology. even the Original Canon 1D years later did not have 6mp.

http://www.mount-spokane-photography.com/Photography/DCS-460/DCS-460KodakDCS460001/863351237_Aqype-X2.jpg 


Bob Howland

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2011, 07:25:04 AM »
I can't see Canon shelving APS-H even if they've made great progress on APS-C & FF sensors.

Where is the Canon ultra wide angle lens for APS-H, the one that corresponds to the 16-35 for FF and the 10-22 for APS-C?

APS-H has always been a specialty sensor exclusive to Canon's defacto high performance sports body.  More than likely, there's not been enough demand by sports photogs and people who require such performance for an ultra wide angle solution.

Then what is Canon's general purpose professional photojournalist's camera?

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2011, 07:25:04 AM »

Stone

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2011, 08:06:20 AM »
I can't see Canon shelving APS-H even if they've made great progress on APS-C & FF sensors.

Where is the Canon ultra wide angle lens for APS-H, the one that corresponds to the 16-35 for FF and the 10-22 for APS-C?

APS-H has always been a specialty sensor exclusive to Canon's defacto high performance sports body.  More than likely, there's not been enough demand by sports photogs and people who require such performance for an ultra wide angle solution.

Then what is Canon's general purpose professional photojournalist's camera?

I've seen pro photojournalists use everything from rebels to 1Ds bodies.  The camera used is not what makes one a professional, but you knew that already ;)

If I had to pick the Canon cameras I've seem used the most for photojournalism, it would be 5D bodies.  When I was in Dubai, even though Nikon seemed to rule there, I saw an above average number of 1D bodies being used by the press, considering the weather conditions, that made perfect sense.  There is a 3rd party option in the Sigma 12-24 if you need ultra wide on a 1.3, honestly I've never seen a photojournalist that lives exclusively in the ultra wide realm, they tend work throughout the zoom range.  Your experience may be different.

I think you miss the point of my original post, so I'll restate it in a different way.  The IQ of Canon's APS-H sensor is far better than it's APS-C sensor and gets very close to it's current FF sensor.  Unless Canon makes great strides in it's next iteration of APS-C, I personally don't see the logic in shelving APS-H when it could be moved into another body and still give excellent IQ.  If it's cost prohibitive to continue manufacturing APS-H sensors, then I can see why they would shelve the tech.  I don't work for Canon and neither do you, these are my opinions only......
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Stone

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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2011, 08:07:54 AM »
APS-H has always been a specialty sensor exclusive to Canon's defacto high performance sports body.  More than likely, there's not been enough demand by sports photogs and people who require such performance for an ultra wide angle solution.


APS-H cameras
1.3ׇ — Canon EOS-1D Mark IV, 1D Mark III† , 1D Mark II† (and Mark II N), EOS-1D?, Kodak DCS 460†, DCS 560†, DCS 660†, DCS 760†, Leica M8, M8.2

My Kodak DCS 460 which sold originally for $35,000 was APS-H before Canon ever made digital SLR's. A 6.2 mp sensor in 1995 was astounding technology. even the Original Canon 1D years later did not have 6mp.

http://www.mount-spokane-photography.com/Photography/DCS-460/DCS-460KodakDCS460001/863351237_Aqype-X2.jpg

I was speaking from a Canon perspective, but very interesting indeed, I had no idea....
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 09:14:27 AM by Stone »
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Re: The Land of Crazy or.... ? [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2011, 08:07:54 AM »