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Author Topic: Are you really serious about 6D?  (Read 37951 times)

tomscott

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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2012, 06:48:45 PM »
Think your missing my point.

Im comparing in use, once you have sampled a better camera AF even the 7D its hard to go back to having so few, and for 5D MKII users most of which I would say are advanced amateurs or prosumers the 6D offers a slight upgrade in IQ and ISO whether it is worth while ditching it for I cant say, but where it counts as IQ will be similar AF body construction sealing the 6D isnt better etc

A camera is more than IQ, single point in the middle? You saying all of your pics are composed with the subject bang in the middle? Have you used fast L primes and tried to focus and recompose? The plane of focus shifts. That is my argument, if you are shooting with a 20mp FF camera you need good glass to resolve it so £700+ lenses if you were frustrated as a 5D MKII user then the 6D wont appeal, because the AF hasn't improved significantly where it counts. And I think an extra £1000 over a XXXD is even more difficult to swallow as an amateur!

I doubt highly that people who are used to buying an XXXD around £400-800 would upgrade to a camera that is £1600 body only without a lens seen as tho non of thier lenses would work! its a big money upgrade. XXXD users buy the cams caus they are the cheapest way to get into the DSLR market.

Im not saying the 6D is bad. Just saying its compromised for a lot of users. ISO and IQ count more so if your printing, for internet work the res is low so counts less. The majority of XXXD users buying a full frame camera wouldn't make sense regardless of spending £2200 on one with one lens, most use photos and put them on facebook...

Of corse I am generalising but I think these markets are different and this wont become the popular majestic entry FF  camera eveyone has been waiting for over night. I still think £2000 is a lot of money for a camera for people who aren't making money from photography. There will always be gear heads that need the latest and greatest but that market is small I just think the target market has been missed slightly and the more keen photographers will give this a miss because of its shortcomings and makes it a hard decision and I would always think I wish id spent the extra.. and if you can afford £2200 for the 6D and 24-105 then a 5D MKIII with the 24-105 at £2500 is not a big jump.

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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2012, 06:48:45 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2012, 07:53:57 PM »
@Neuro From where do you have the information that 6ds are flying from the shelfs? I dont think they do, as they arent even out everywhere in the world.

I have no such information.  AFAIK, no one has such information, one way or the other, which made the claim in the post to which I was replying baseless.  That was my point.
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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2012, 09:18:27 PM »
This thread tracks the usual dissatisfactions:
1) Why would anyone be interested in a camera that I'm not interested in?
2) If a camera doesn't meet my personal needs, then it is a "crippled" camera.
3) Whatever features a camera has, it should have had some feature(s) of the next more expensive model, but without the added cost.
4) If a camera has features I don't need, but can easily be turned off or ignored, I must still complain as if they can't possibly be useful to anyone.
5) If they don't offer the specific camera that I want at this moment, within my present budget, then the company is headed in the wrong direction.
6) If DxO thinks my brand's sensor is inferior, then it must be inferior and I must complain about it and/or switch brands.
 ;)
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 01:10:12 AM by Zlatko »

Zlatko

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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #63 on: December 13, 2012, 09:28:23 PM »
look at Nikon (Sony origin) sensors.... better resolution, way better DR and colors... yes beyond ISO 6400 -12800 Canon is better at High ISO.
Canon color is still better IMO.

verysimplejason

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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #64 on: December 13, 2012, 10:58:39 PM »
@Neuro From where do you have the information that 6ds are flying from the shelfs? I dont think they do, as they arent even out everywhere in the world.

I have no such information.  AFAIK, no one has such information, one way or the other, which made the claim in the post to which I was replying baseless.  That was my point.

FYI.  Currently, I'm staying in Malaysia and 6D is already available here.  The first day the 6D is available in one online store (Shashinki), stocks were immediately gone the next day.  They are now waiting for new shipments.  There's also one store offering 6D bodies for RM 5799.  Some of my friends already bought their 6D.  From this local site: http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/ftz/index.php, second-hand 5D2s are becoming cheaper everyday.  From as high as RM 5800, down to RM 4600 now (as of December 2012).  ($1 = RM1).  It seems they are signs that those users are moving to another camera body.  I am guessing it's either a 5D3 or a 6D.

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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #65 on: December 13, 2012, 11:13:39 PM »
This thread tracks the usual dissatisfactions:
1) Why would anyone be interested in a camera that I'm not interested in?
2) If a camera doesn't meet my personal needs, then it is a "crippled" camera.
3) Whatever features a camera has, it should have had some feature(s) of the next more expensive model, but without the added cost.
4) If a camera has features I don't need, but can easily be turned off or ignored, I must still complain as if they can't possibly be useful to anyone.
5) If they don't offer the specific camera that I want at this moment, within my present budget, then the company is headed in the wrong direction.
7) If DxO thinks my brand's sensor is inferior, then it must be inferior and I must complain about it and/or switch brands.
 ;)

+1 and most of those who complain about it haven't even used it or have gone as far as owning the product. What I'm also seeing is self proclaimed "pros" that have no work to show or crappy portfolios complaining about it. Now, why should we care about those opinions?
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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2012, 11:26:58 PM »
This thread tracks the usual dissatisfactions:
1) Why would anyone be interested in a camera that I'm not interested in?
2) If a camera doesn't meet my personal needs, then it is a "crippled" camera.
3) Whatever features a camera has, it should have had some feature(s) of the next more expensive model, but without the added cost.
4) If a camera has features I don't need, but can easily be turned off or ignored, I must still complain as if they can't possibly be useful to anyone.
5) If they don't offer the specific camera that I want at this moment, within my present budget, then the company is headed in the wrong direction.
7) If DxO thinks my brand's sensor is inferior, then it must be inferior and I must complain about it and/or switch brands.
 ;)
;D M y only complaint is that I currently can't afford the lenses I want to get to my 5D3. But that's not really Canon's fault. Maybe if I cut down on beer I could afford them faster, but that's a really difficult choice to make.

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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #66 on: December 13, 2012, 11:26:58 PM »

Area256

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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2012, 12:17:46 AM »
This thread tracks the usual dissatisfactions:
1) Why would anyone be interested in a camera that I'm not interested in?
2) If a camera doesn't meet my personal needs, then it is a "crippled" camera.
3) Whatever features a camera has, it should have had some feature(s) of the next more expensive model, but without the added cost.
4) If a camera has features I don't need, but can easily be turned off or ignored, I must still complain as if they can't possibly be useful to anyone.
5) If they don't offer the specific camera that I want at this moment, within my present budget, then the company is headed in the wrong direction.
7) If DxO thinks my brand's sensor is inferior, then it must be inferior and I must complain about it and/or switch brands.
 ;)

+1 You see these things happen in politics and news paper comments as well. Usually in the form of: "I don't use health care/public transit/public schools/social service xyz, so why should my tax $ pay for them? but social service abc was awful last time I used it, it should be funded better!"  Classic, "the world should be build for me, and me only" syndrome ;)

I like my 6D, it does everything I need in a camera, and saves me some money for more good glass.  If it's not good enough for some, that's fine, there is the 5D3/1Dx and cameras from Nikon/Sony/ect that may work better for them.
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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2012, 01:19:30 AM »
Please help me understand why people are excited about 6D? I cannot be excited about 97% VF, 1 x-pt AF, crippled 6D with wifi and facebook buttons. I will stick to a 5-year-old beloved 5D Mark II which is identical in IQ to Canon's newest sensors. Canon, you are not getting a dime of my money on your recent cameras. I have diversified my lenses so am not hostage to inferior sensors anymore.

+1

But i will switch to Nikon. Where i live the difference between Nikon D800 and 6D is around $500, the Nikon D600 is cheaper than 6D.

All the best with your switch.  In some countries, 6D is more expensive while in others just like ours, it's cheaper.  Just remember that you also need to switch lenses.  It should also be expensive to switch unless you're still not yet invested in Canon lenses.

as long as he is gone from this forum.... im fine with that.

the 5D MK3 is chosen camera of the year by so many magazines and tech institutions... and for a good reason.
and no hyper sensor would help that kid to make better pictures...  ::)

Why so many people are indoctrinated (including you).... and under no reason can't admit that Canon is no longer No.1 in DSLR industry ( with the exception of flagship 1DX that is still unbeatable) ???

look at Nikon (Sony origin) sensors.... better resolution, way better DR and colors... yes beyond ISO 6400 -12800 Canon is better at High ISO.


D600 vs 6D... Nikon is wiping the floor with Canon ( with only one exception ISO performance beyond 12800)...but how many of us are shooting beyond that value ...10% and that occasionally ???

I an a professional photographer and is more easy to admit and buy/use what is best for my business, than other that are not thinking outside the box.

.....and yes the resolution of the image and quality is essential for my business; today only Nikon and MF cameras ( witch in don't afford yet ) can meet my demands.

That does not mean giving up totally on Canon, selling everything and delete my account from this forum; I still have many EF lenses and I will use in the future canon cameras ... but for my main business photography i will start to use Nikon.

Who knows... if Canon is delivering a better low noise sensor with the 7Dmk2 i will buy one as a fast walk around/sports camera.

Of course this situation can be reversed with the introduction of the rumored 46MP monster as a affordable 5D type body(3-4 k$ ), not a 1D style and many thousands of $$$

Nik.

Nicku, you have been quite loud on this forum for some time now about how bad Canon is doing. It seems almost that you're not sure what to do and won't leave Canon until you are convinced that you will have followers from here.  I don't think you will get many though as your case doesn't seem very strong and I think you have successfully managed to alienate a few people.. I am sure you are a very good photographer, so if you honestly feel that Canon's technology is holding you back, then go ahead. You come out as quite trollish in your comments sometimes, maybe it's because you, like myself, are not a native english speaker. Fact remains though that if anybody is considering chaning brands I do believe it is of very little interest to people in general.

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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2012, 05:47:27 AM »
Hate to admit it, but I agree.

The 6D could have been so much better and appealed to a much larger audience without the cost being too much more and without compromising on the 5D, with a real hybrid between a XXXD, XXD & 7D with a full frame sensor

If you are looking for a longer term investment a 6D just isnt one to get in my mind.

I didnt expect the 6D to have poor IQ, and it has proven itself, it appears to be fantastic. But if you are an amateur used to the 9 point system the 11 point isnt a massive upgrade apart from one point, even the 650Ds are all cross point, but it will feel similar... not sure i like the idea of that price and the camera AF feeling similar. But I wouldn't buy a 2k camera that really doesn't improve much apart from IQ it needs to be across the board, a camera consists of more than just a good sensor. IQ means nothing if only one point is worth using.

What happens if you want some nice primes like a 50mm 1.2? taking full advantage of that IQ? focusing with the single point and recomposing at this fine DOF will return poor focus and as the other 10 are pretty much useless.... makes the IQ worthless, unless you plan on manual focusing most of the time. How often is your subject bang in the centre?

It has a few cool quirks with the Wi-fi & GPS. But really if everyone were to be honest it could have been better, it has clearly been detuned so not so step on the toes of the 5D MKIII but people who buy that camera are in a different market in my opinion. The D600 although also having its quirks, is a better option if your an amateur without too much invested.


I make money with my camera and buy what i need. If i was an amateur then I would feel even worse! It is an improvement over the 5D MKII but not 4 years worth of improvement. With the 5D MKIII not much more it doesn't make any sense in my mind to buy a 6D. £2k for a 5D MKIII or £1600 for the 6D? I bought a 5D.

I disagree on a few levels.  Looking at al lthe bells and whistles on the mk3, and seeing the reaction to the price (many saying it should be $2500), where does that leave any room for improving the 6d? 

Center point only, yeah it seems like a step back, but, looking at all the amazing images the 5d2 has cranked out over the lifetime of the cam center point may do just fine!  Many claimed the 5d2 was only really usable to ISO 3200, and would push it to 6400 in a pinch if it was the only way to get the shot.  It seems that the 6d is following the 5d3 in ISO, so ISO 6400 -12800 being usable is a huge upgrade!

Different strokes I guess, also, everyone looking at these bodies has their own needs to fill.  For me, I have a mk3 so this would be a backup body.  Yeah, the price difference isn't that huge (in the sticker at least, it's closer to $1200 difference after tax though).  To me, that is the cost of a 135 f2L.  If your on a mk2 looking to upgrade though, then yeah the 6d may not be as big of a leap as you want.  But if your on a 60D, then just the FF sensor alone is reason to buy!  Different strokes!

Granted the 5D MKIII at release was insane at £3500 but you can get body only for £1990 now, with the 6D at £1600.

Most pros hated the AF of the 5D MKII, but you have to remember it was revolutionary and it will be forever held in that sense, the AF was flawed then, but it was a great camera so most put up with it. The difference is that was 4 years ago!!!! 4 Years later and we have 2 points more and ONE cross type thats sensitive! Right in the middle! So what about composition? Or do you put everything in the middle? and when using fast glass youll be fine to see your focus and recompose is now not in focus? Because thats all you can do the rest arent worth talking about.

Then you have the 5D MKIII with 61 AF points 50 more... huge gap! or the 7D AF system in the middle with 19. If they had remade the 7D AF system for the FF 6D and spread them out, unlike the D600. This would have flown off the shelves, would have made the camera from a meh camera to a wow camera. Really worth it for up graders, just because people are amateurs does that mean they have to have the worst AF? Especially when there are other AF systems in the parts bin. Its just lazy, but im sure Canon wont loose anything but my money didnt go to one.

Whether all those pictures you quote actually came from the AF system or were manual focused you cant tell.

Like I said IQ isn't the problem. But its a flawed combination of great IQ and awful AF especially when you need the best L glass to resolve the sensor. Completely baffling! Suppose its just a shame really!

Not sure what Canon are doing they are too bothered about protecting their markets than embracing new ones... like the EOS M, could have been much better but they are protecting the XXXD market.


i have not laid hands on the 6d yet, nor have i seen a d600 in the hands of any of my nikon using friends, but, from what i have seen in images and reviews, the AF points on the d600 are all in the center of the frame anyways. 

One thing i am noticing as i watch all the prices, sales, and that amazon top sellers list ---it does really seem that both nikon and canon have shot themselves in the foot with both the d600 and the 6d, and odd sales on 5d3 and d800.  the 6d has yet to make the top 20, and for a while the d600 was in the top 20 but now nikon is tossing in a rebate on d800's.  It seems that the rush to add an entry level FF has hurt the better offerings from both.  the d800 had dropped in sales as the mk3 got discounted and the d600 sold.  Now the prices of both are cut, and yeah if your looking for a primary body - if on nikon why buy a d600 if the cost of a d800 is down to $2800?  Same for the 6d, with all the mk3 discounts why not just foot the extra $$$...

back to the point, the 6d.  the field is so odd now.  The 6d and the d600 are way more comparable than the d800 and the mk3.  IE for a wedding shooter at least, if you are on canon, no reason to switch.  And if you are nikon and using a d700, the d800 isn't for you - i hear it all the time when my nikon friends are asking for upgrade advice - for wedding work, stay on the d700, or look for a used d3, d3s, or a d4.  None of them recommend the d800 (for wedding work).  I say stop worrying so much about spec sheets and go shoot!!!!
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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2012, 08:07:47 AM »
Please help me understand why people are excited about 6D? I cannot be excited about 97% VF, 1 x-pt AF, crippled 6D with wifi and facebook buttons. I will stick to a 5-year-old beloved 5D Mark II which is identical in IQ to Canon's newest sensors. Canon, you are not getting a dime of my money on your recent cameras. I have diversified my lenses so am not hostage to inferior sensors anymore.
I am sure Canon is very concerned with your threats, they are going to crawl and beg for you to send your money on their products, especially now that you are "diversified" ::)
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elflord

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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2012, 06:19:28 PM »
Think your missing my point.

Im comparing in use, once you have sampled a better camera AF even the 7D its hard to go back to having so few, and for 5D MKII users most of which I would say are advanced amateurs or prosumers the 6D offers a slight upgrade in IQ and ISO whether it is worth while ditching it for I cant say, but where it counts as IQ will be similar AF body construction sealing the 6D isnt better etc

A camera is more than IQ, single point in the middle? You saying all of your pics are composed with the subject bang in the middle? Have you used fast L primes and tried to focus and recompose?

I've done this quite frequently with the 5DII, and I don't think I'm the only one -- the 5DII was very popular among users of fast primes when it was a current model.

With the 50mm f/1.4, you have about an inch of dof when shooting at 3 feet.

If the lens had substantial field curvature (and the focal plane were a perfect sphere) you could rotate the camera as far as 10 degrees (so you're focusing on midway between the center and the edge of the frame).

This is a pretty extreme dof example and pretty extreme assumptions about field curvature. Field curvature is less pronounced with tele lenses.  So while this seems to be a big deal on internet forums I haven't seen much evidence for it.

Quote
I doubt highly that people who are used to buying an XXXD around £400-800 would upgrade to a camera that is £1600 body only without a lens seen as tho non of thier lenses would work!

Not sure what you mean about none of the lenses working, unless they only own EF-S zooms in which case they probably aren't too concerned about whether or not fast primes will work well.

The 5DII, which like the 6D  has a tight group of AF points in the center and was the pro camera of choice until recently. Hardly unusable for a pro, let alone an amateur.

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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2012, 08:56:44 PM »
Yes I am serious about 6D, and I love it!
I'm not a professional even though I have had friends ask me to shoot their weddings, homecoming, family portraits etc. All this I have done with the 20D and an equally old Tamron lens! Remember that camera? So, it was time to upgrade my body. Question was, do I buy a discounted 5DIII, or for about the same price, or get the 6D PLUS the 24-105L with IS? I went with the upgrade to the body AND lens. Sure I wish it did a bunch of other things, (I actually love the wi fi and GPS feature), but bottom line, I'm getting better pictures out of this thing than I did with my 20D. It has also breathed new life into my 70-200 f4 which I use to shoot my daughter's basketball games. Being able to increase the ISO has allowed me to increase the shutter speed and the auto focus is fast enough to keep up with the 7th grade girls basketball team :)
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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2012, 08:56:44 PM »

helpful

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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2012, 09:12:38 PM »
Yes I am serious about 6D, and I love it!
I'm not a professional even though I have had friends ask me to shoot their weddings, homecoming, family portraits etc. All this I have done with the 20D and an equally old Tamron lens! Remember that camera? So, it was time to upgrade my body. Question was, do I buy a discounted 5DIII, or for about the same price, or get the 6D PLUS the 24-105L with IS? I went with the upgrade to the body AND lens. Sure I wish it did a bunch of other things, (I actually love the wi fi and GPS feature), but bottom line, I'm getting better pictures out of this thing than I did with my 20D. It has also breathed new life into my 70-200 f4 which I use to shoot my daughter's basketball games. Being able to increase the ISO has allowed me to increase the shutter speed and the auto focus is fast enough to keep up with the 7th grade girls basketball team :)

You said it. The 6D is awesome. Really, really awesome. It's what a dream version of the 5DII would be. In every case that I didn't need the advanced tracking features of the 5D3 autofocus, the 6D is as good or better. I've experimented a bit to see whether it can sometimes track action with just the center point, for example, but I've not had many opportunities where I could take the risk of possibly missing shots for customers. I've also been using the Sigma 35mm f/1.4 art lens for a while, and it goes with the 6D just like love and marriage, or a horse and carriage. I just came back from a Christmas program, and I really had no need for anything but these two cameras: 1DX with Sigma 85mm f/1.4 and 6D with Sigma 35mm f/1.4. It feels so good not to need 100 pounds of equipment anymore.
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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2012, 09:28:44 PM »
For me, it's all about the ability to quickly share photos with friend and family either via email or Facebook.  My current workflow includes a dreadfully slow upload process on my Mac.  I like the idea of previewing my photos on my IPhone or IPad and emailing a scaled down version to a friend or family members email. 
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Re: Are you really serious about 6D?
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2012, 09:28:44 PM »