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Author Topic: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012  (Read 39902 times)

elflord

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #75 on: December 31, 2012, 06:24:16 PM »
It has to go both ways.  I'm not really asking for proof that it is NOT.  I am pointing out how silly the commenter (not you by the way) held that Canon did NOT hold a superior product.  He held that Canon did NOT hold a superior product, as fact.  With, mind you, no proof.  And then I made the point that that is silly, and just so as I can ask for proof that it is NOT a superior product.  He had none either way.

I think you missed his point which wasn't "silly" at all. His point was that if Canon have grown anywhere near as complacent and arrogant as the Canon camera "fans", they are in serious trouble. He didn't state or imply that higher sales meant that their product was inferior, he was only pointing out that it wasn't in itself reason for celebration.

What is far more important, are whether or not they continue (or begin perhaps ?) to innovate, and consolidate/maintain their lead in developing top quality lenses (this they did pretty well this year).

Quite frankly, maintaining a pre-existing lead in sales numbers isn't anything to celebrate. It might perhaps give the Canon camera "fans" some ammunitation to poke a stick in the eye of "fans" of other cameras but outside these petty camera "fan" wars, it's not terribly important.

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #75 on: December 31, 2012, 06:24:16 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #76 on: December 31, 2012, 06:46:47 PM »
What is far more important, are whether or not they continue (or begin perhaps ?) to innovate...

Begin to innovate?  Show me someone else's 600mm f/4 lens that I can handhold.  Show me someone else with even one, let alone five, high-precision AF points with the greater accuracy of an f/2.8 baseline.  Show me 12 fps with a FF sensor/mirror.  Who else has an integrated radio-controlled flash system?  Maybe these innovations are irrelevant to you, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen.
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Kernuak

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #77 on: December 31, 2012, 07:17:31 PM »
Also, how many innovations have been a complete failure?  While change is needed for progression, innovation isn't always the answer, although the right innovations will of course be welcomed.
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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2012, 07:43:34 PM »
It has to go both ways.  I'm not really asking for proof that it is NOT.  I am pointing out how silly the commenter (not you by the way) held that Canon did NOT hold a superior product.  He held that Canon did NOT hold a superior product, as fact.  With, mind you, no proof.  And then I made the point that that is silly, and just so as I can ask for proof that it is NOT a superior product.  He had none either way.

I think you missed his point which wasn't "silly" at all. His point was that if Canon have grown anywhere near as complacent and arrogant as the Canon camera "fans", they are in serious trouble. He didn't state or imply that higher sales meant that their product was inferior, he was only pointing out that it wasn't in itself reason for celebration.

What is far more important, are whether or not they continue (or begin perhaps ?) to innovate, and consolidate/maintain their lead in developing top quality lenses (this they did pretty well this year).

Quite frankly, maintaining a pre-existing lead in sales numbers isn't anything to celebrate. It might perhaps give the Canon camera "fans" some ammunitation to poke a stick in the eye of "fans" of other cameras but outside these petty camera "fan" wars, it's not terribly important.

Classic ignorance.  This is why I get on this board sometimes; it makes for a tremendous laugh.  And you're right.  His point isn't silly.  It's REALLY silly.  Canon leads in sales and that somehow equates to Canon producing an inferior product to Nikon.  Too bad the market doesn't feel that way.  Right or wrong, the market doesn't feel that way. 

What is amazing to me, and partially why I even participate in these stupid, childish threads, is that right away, when it was announced that Canon leads in sales over Nikon, the "I don't know the proper term for these people" people piped up right away that that doesn't necessarily mean that Canon has a superior product.  Which I agreed with.  Then, the "I don't know the proper term for that person" person then stated, as fact, that Canon has inferior product. 

See?  REALLY silly.
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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #79 on: December 31, 2012, 09:05:28 PM »
The topic degenerated more than I was expecting.

Let me explain myself again: I never said that Canon sells more cameras and that for this reason Nikon (or whatever) is better.

I'm saying that sale figures mean nothing because a lot of things affect them - and few of them are related to quality and performance. Not least the reputation of a certain company, but this is something developed over years and thus not a measure of the situation in one single given moment. Canon has been leading for decades, and the situation is not going to change in a day or a year - in the same way as Kodak didn't go bankrupt over one night.

As for the quality itself, in every area I know the best manufacturers are niche manufacturers, and most people didn't even ever hear of them. We end users should care about the individual quality of the products we buy, not about how many of them are sold. The fact that your lens/camera is a best seller won't make your photos better.
You're drawing comparisons between Canon and Kodak. Talk about a degenerating subjet. Please explain how canon are doing the same mistakes as Kodak did. Don't come dragging with third party sensors that Nikon is buying.

Please read my post again.

I didn't say Canon is going the same way of Kodak. It was an example to explain how big companies require a long time-span to noticeably gain or lose market share or to improve/damage their reputation permanently. For this reason sale figures are not reliable data to describe the situation at one specific time.

In practical terms it means that Canon (and the likes) could screw up a whole generation of cameras and get away with that with little damage in sale figures. That wouldn't change the fact that those cameras are screwed.

Example: Sony didn't lose the lead in the TV market over one day or one year. It happened little by little that the general opinion of who produced the best TVs was not Sony any more.

I don't know what is so difficult to understand.
I understood your point but don't agree, for the simple reason that Canon hasn't screwed up anything. There is no reason for youvto claim that.

Sidenote, Kodak operated in a market that went through disruptive change and they weren't able to follow/lead in that environment. A better example of a company that has or is about to lose touch with its market is Apple. They are trying to lock in their customers into proprietary solutions in a market that demands open and compatible solutions. Secondly, they have. already started to follow their competition with launching the mini ipa. Hence lost initiative.

Canon is not there and I can't see them going there either. Their dSLR lineup is the strongest ever and they're offering a very strong feature set in those products that helps the serious photographer in their daily business.

Woody

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #80 on: December 31, 2012, 09:14:00 PM »
Sidenote, Kodak operated in a market that went through disruptive change and they weren't able to follow/lead in that environment. A better example of a company that has or is about to lose touch with its market is Apple. They are trying to lock in their customers into proprietary solutions in a market that demands open and compatible solutions. Secondly, they have. already started to follow their competition with launching the mini ipad. Hence lost initiative.

Canon is not there and I can't see them going there either. Their dSLR lineup is the strongest ever and they're offering a very strong feature set in those products that helps the serious photographer in their daily business.

Well said. Canon do have some weaknesses (the most prominent being the ridiculous AF speed of the EOS-M), but as a whole, they are doing OK.

elflord

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #81 on: December 31, 2012, 09:26:02 PM »
Classic ignorance.  This is why I get on this board sometimes; it makes for a tremendous laugh.  And you're right.  His point isn't silly.  It's REALLY silly.  Canon leads in sales and that somehow equates to Canon producing an inferior product to Nikon.

I'm sorry, maybe there  has been a miscommunication. I was referring to the poster ScottyP, who does not at any point state or argue that Canon produce an inferior product (or that their leadership in sales in any way implies that the product is inferior). From his posting history, I take it he is a 6D user, so not a Nikon camera "fan". I am a 5D Mark II user, though I do sometimes sin by using Sigma lenses and Panasonic mirrorless cameras.

Are you talking about another poster (in which case I misunderstood you), or are you just factually wrong about his post (in which case you misunderstood him) ?

Quote
Then, the "I don't know the proper term for that person" person then stated, as fact, that Canon has inferior product. 

Perhaps I missed the part where that was stated. Would you quote the post where this was asserted ? And highlight the assertion itself, the part where he says "Canon make an inferior product to Nikon" ?

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #81 on: December 31, 2012, 09:26:02 PM »

Hobby Shooter

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #82 on: January 01, 2013, 12:15:39 AM »
Sidenote, Kodak operated in a market that went through disruptive change and they weren't able to follow/lead in that environment. A better example of a company that has or is about to lose touch with its market is Apple. They are trying to lock in their customers into proprietary solutions in a market that demands open and compatible solutions. Secondly, they have. already started to follow their competition with launching the mini ipad. Hence lost initiative.

Canon is not there and I can't see them going there either. Their dSLR lineup is the strongest ever and they're offering a very strong feature set in those products that helps the serious photographer in their daily business.

Well said. Canon do have some weaknesses (the most prominent being the ridiculous AF speed of the EOS-M), but as a whole, they are doing OK.
I completely agree with that. I don't know enough to point to specifics really. Nobody's perfect. I am very happy with my 5D3.  I am sure it could be better, i just don't know how.

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #83 on: January 01, 2013, 06:01:54 AM »
Sidenote, Kodak operated in a market that went through disruptive change and they weren't able to follow/lead in that environment. A better example of a company that has or is about to lose touch with its market is Apple. They are trying to lock in their customers into proprietary solutions in a market that demands open and compatible solutions. Secondly, they have. already started to follow their competition with launching the mini ipad. Hence lost initiative.

Canon is not there and I can't see them going there either. Their dSLR lineup is the strongest ever and they're offering a very strong feature set in those products that helps the serious photographer in their daily business.

Well said. Canon do have some weaknesses (the most prominent being the ridiculous AF speed of the EOS-M), but as a whole, they are doing OK.
I completely agree with that. I don't know enough to point to specifics really. Nobody's perfect. I am very happy with my 5D3.  I am sure it could be better, i just don't know how.

It would be better of they added an extra two stops of dynamic range and cleaner shadow's..I can't think of much else except backlit buttons..

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #84 on: January 01, 2013, 10:38:46 AM »
What is far more important, are whether or not they continue (or begin perhaps ?) to innovate...

Begin to innovate?  Show me someone else's 600mm f/4 lens that I can handhold.  Show me someone else with even one, let alone five, high-precision AF points with the greater accuracy of an f/2.8 baseline.  Show me 12 fps with a FF sensor/mirror.  Who else has an integrated radio-controlled flash system?  Maybe these innovations are irrelevant to you, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Until Canon delivered its most recent radio controlled flash system, the Nikon flash system was considered to be superior. It is highly likely that Nikon will update their system...

So, we agree that Canon innovated, and now Nikon has to innovate better, to catch up to Canon...

How many focus points on Canon's gear works at f/8? 11? No? Oh, that's right, none at launch of its most recent cameras and with the firmware hack 4 + 1 x-type. Yup, Canon truly showed how innovative it was there by removing a very well used feature. Aren't you happy at how Canon's R&D delivers such innovation with the launch of its new cameras by removing features?

How many people need AF with an f/8 combo, vs. how many people benefit from highly accurate AF with f/2.8 or faster lenses?  What about all those f/4 crosses?  There are a heck of a lot more people out there with f/4 and f/2.8 zooms than with supertele lenses.  Even for me, probably 5% or less of my shots are with the 600 II, and only a subset of those is with the 2xIII. So while I'm happy about f/8 AF support being added, I personally derive a lot more benefit from the innovative and unmatched by the competition 20 f/4 cross-type points and 5 f/2.8 dual-crosses. 
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elflord

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #85 on: January 01, 2013, 12:08:14 PM »
Begin to innovate?  Show me someone else's 600mm f/4 lens that I can handhold.  Show me someone else with even one, let alone five, high-precision AF points with the greater accuracy of an f/2.8 baseline.  Show me 12 fps with a FF sensor/mirror.  Who else has an integrated radio-controlled flash system?  Maybe these innovations are irrelevant to you, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Re the 600mm lens -- it doesn't really speak to my point for two reasons. One is that I do agree and state in my posts that Canon's lens system really is the industry leader, and they didn't lose ground this year (if anything they consolidated their position). However, I'd neither call the 600mm lens hand holdable nor would I consider it a novel technology. But again I agree that it is one (of a number of) release(s) that consolidates Canon's lead in developing glass.

To your other points -- by limiting the market to FF you are essentially defining the market place in Canon's terms (only Nikon and Canon make FF SLRs) Nikon, like Canon have had integrated off camera flash for years. If you're trying to argue that Radio control is new, Pocket Wizard and other third party providers have been doing that for years. Maybe the AF points would qualify.

However the kind of thing I'm thinking of are major technological steps -- things like Fuji's hybrid viewfinder, and their new sensor array design. Magic lantern like firmware features. Mirrorless cameras (something where Canon's entry is too little too late). Sony's SLT technology (which allows phase detect in video mode).  Leica's technology which lets them use full frame wide angle lenses with a short flange distance.  Usable AF in video mode.

I just don't see Canon's fingerprints on most of the new technology in the marketplace. Their entry into mirrorless far from being a class leader was not worth of a manufacturer of their stature.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #86 on: January 01, 2013, 01:30:55 PM »
However, I'd neither call the 600mm lens hand holdable...

The 600 II is approximately the same weight as the 500/4 MkI, which is generally considered to be a handholdable lens.  So, may I ask, on what experience are you basing that statement?  FYI, when I stated, "Show me someone else's 600mm f/4 lens that I can handhold," I was not speaking in generic terms. I own a 600mm f/4L IS II, and I assure you that I can handhold it.

To your other points -- by limiting the market to FF you are essentially defining the market place in Canon's terms (only Nikon and Canon make FF SLRs) Nikon, like Canon have had integrated off camera flash for years. If you're trying to argue that Radio control is new, Pocket Wizard and other third party providers have been doing that for years. Maybe the AF points would qualify.

However the kind of thing I'm thinking of are major technological steps -- things like Fuji's hybrid viewfinder, and their new sensor array design. Magic lantern like firmware features. Mirrorless cameras (something where Canon's entry is too little too late). Sony's SLT technology (which allows phase detect in video mode).  Leica's technology which lets them use full frame wide angle lenses with a short flange distance.  Usable AF in video mode.

My point on the flash is that integrated radio control is new. Sure, it was possible with 3rd party products (but I'm still waiting for my PWs to be fully compatible with my 1D X, whereas I'd be fine with the Canon RF system out if the box). 

There are many types of innovation.  By your definition of 'transformative' innovation, Nikon isn't innovating, either.  That's not unexpected - very few large corporations at the top of their field (or near the top, in Nikon's case) do much innovation, the risk:reward ratio is high, and they don't need to take the risk. Rather, they allow others to shoulder that risk, then in-license from or outright acquire the smaller, more innovative company.
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #87 on: January 01, 2013, 05:39:36 PM »
Let me get this straight. You're questioning the need of AF at f/8 because so few use it but on the other hand, you're using a lens that costs $13,000 as an example of innovation that benefits everyone?

I listed the 28% lighter 600 II as an example of innovation, I never said it benefitted everyone (but it does benefit me).
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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #87 on: January 01, 2013, 05:39:36 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #88 on: January 01, 2013, 05:42:19 PM »
...
So, we agree that Canon innovated, and now Nikon has to innovate better, to catch up to Canon...
Rather Nikon innovated, Canon had to innovate to catch up (and has), now it is back to Nikon...

Catch up?  No.  Surpass.
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sanj

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2013, 02:02:25 AM »
Alas, Nikonistas will say that us Canonistas all over the world live in a false reality... the number of cameras sold does not make one the better camera.

 :)

Ahhhh, so the majority of people are intentionally buying inferior cameras, or are not savvy enough to determine what's a better camera.  If that thought is what lets you sleep at night.....

No, they're not savvy enough. Even shop assistants who advise people are not savvy enough.

By definition, masses of people can't be made of experts. It's quite clearly a paradox.

In fact, if we go by the number of units sold, then the 18-55 IS and the 50/1.8 are likely to be considered as the best lenses ever. Or in the same way, if Canon sells more rebels than 1DX, then Rebels are better.

Quite a childish way of reasoning.

What's interesting is that you list two lenses that obviously sell more units due to price, in my opinion that is.  Now take DSLR's.  Everybody complains about how Canon is overpriced relative to Nikon.  Yet they still sell more of them.  I'm going to guess it's because the majority of the market believes Canon to be a better DSLR.  There has to be some reason why this is, don't you think?

Then we totally agree: sales figures mean nothing to us end users.

Pros and other people who are heavily invested in a system are obviously reluctant to change system. Canon has had the lead for more or less 20 years and they're still getting revenues on that, so it's hardly a measure of the situation in this exact moment.

On the other hand, consumers have most likely no deep understanding of specs, graphs, etc, and are heavily influenced by advertising, discounts, and whatever. So their choice is also hardly relevant in determining who is better than who.

Seems logical to me. Many inferior cars sell more than better cars....

Not saying Canon or Nikon is better. But volume of sales does not seem to indicate quality of product.

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Re: Canon Sells More DSLRs Than Anyone Else in 2012
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2013, 02:02:25 AM »