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Author Topic: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...  (Read 20589 times)

RS2021

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2013, 02:04:10 PM »
I suppose all these cameras are still black, and still have a shutter button, so there is nothing groundbreaking like, what, mounting 3 lenses at the same time, and maybe a tractor beam, or the ability to ressurect one's ancestors?  :)

Yes, and don't forget including hoods for each one of those three lenses :P
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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2013, 02:04:10 PM »

awinphoto

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2013, 02:52:52 PM »
I know, seriously, canon is so overpriced... oh wait let me play with my new 100mm 2.8L Macro... sweet... i mean damn them for twisting my arm to buy an overpriced lens... 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, Canon 85 1.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

RustyTheGeek

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2013, 03:08:55 PM »
OK, now this is more like it!  Some fun posts!  I particularly will be on the waiting list for the tractor beam feature!!  Especially if it will track my eye movements and re-pose or levitate the subjects I choose!  I think the tractor beam would be very handy in low light for stabilizing the moving subjects.  Sort of like the next logical step in IS technology!  (Not only does the new IS system dampen camera/lens movement for 4+ stops of exposure advantage, it also stops the subject for another 4 stops!!)  This might be problematic in dance recitals, stock car races and pro sports where "IS Free" zones would need to be enforced.  This would unfortunately free up people to use their cell phones since all the enforcement attention would be paid to watching for IS users!   :D

Alright, I got that out of my system.  Sorry for taking the thread off topic.  But I didn't mention sharing software so hopefully I'll be alright....
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

RLPhoto

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2013, 03:29:58 PM »
The 6D is a repackaged 5D2, which is a repackaged 20D w/ a FF sensor.

Save your dough and buy a used 5D2+glass or a 5D3.

I keep seeing this same post by RLPhoto in response to the 6D over and over.  I consider RLPhoto a solid and talented photographer who consistently offers great advice here, no offense is intended by my comment but...  his response to the 6D is out of character for him because it indicates an assumption opinion apparently based on specs that isn't backed up by first hand experience.  And the repeated posting of it seems to indicate a desire to prevent others from making a mistake in purchasing the 6D.

I've shot about 4000+ images so far with the 6D I've owned for about a month.  I also own the 5D3, 60D, 40D, 30D and original 5D.  I've shot the 5D2 as well.  The 5D3 and 6D are the first NIB bodies I've purchased.  I normally purchase most of my equipment used.  I agree that the current Canon prices are ridiculous.  I purchased the 6D because I find the 5D3 low light performance and AF to be lacking.  In another month or two I will likely sell either the 5D3 or the 6D.  If Canon somehow magically fixes the 5D3 AF I would be inclined to possibly keep it but as things stand now, unless I do a lot of sports shooting (which I don't), the 6D will easily win this decision.

I can assure you that IMHO (based on actual use) the 6D is not a repackaged 5D2, 20D or whatever is being assumed.  The 6D IQ is comparable to the 5D3 IQ and the 6D is superior to all other cameras in low light.  The 6D simply works great as an entry level (or even mid level) FF camera.  Everything I have read from actual 6D hands-on use and reviews is positive.  My knee-jerk reaction to the 6D spec sheet several months ago was also negative.  But I gave it a chance and I'm glad I did.

My only experience with the 6D is an hour in a camera store, (the camera exchange in SA), and I was not impressed because it felt exactly like the 5D2 but alittle nicer. I also realized using why it doesn't have a joystick because you will only be using the center point for accurate focusing. Set it and forget it. The outer points are
Ok If your at f/4 or so. Still a bit hit or miss.

Strange that the 5D2 is very similar in this main AF aspect. Even the t4i has all cross type AF points! What gives? If they have it the 7D AF system minimum, well I'd probably have one.

I'd rather buy a 5D2 + L lens than spend the cash on the 6D. This is my opinion, and that's my feelings on the camera. I apologize if I may of offended you rusty, but the 6D AF performed no better than my 5Dc or rebel XSI I've used years ago. Perhaps in super low light it will show its magic, but my 5Dc was also fantastic in low light w/ center point AF selected.

jp121

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2013, 03:42:45 PM »
I too 'jumped' from the Rebel T2i (550D). But I bought the 5DM3 at full market price.

Price will (almost) always reflect current purchaser demand. Basic economics the price consumers will actually pay intersecting with how much the producer can actually (or are willing to) supply.

Canon & Nikon technology will always keep up with each other, as best they can, with strong consideration towards their core markets.

If you're not happy with their current line-up of product offerings (or the price you will pay), then obviously, you are do not fall into one of their current target markets. This will change over time as prices adjust to market forces.

If you are truly interested in photography. ie the actual photographs as a result of the camera person's skill and expression.

Then I suggest you list your photography goals and the technology that will best help you achieve those goals. Select the system that you feel will best assist you.

Remember cameras come and go. ie you are prepared to ditch you 550D and move on. The high price of lenses and accessories (spent over time) will force you to stick to either Canon or Nikon.

If it is the trophy object (camera, car etc) that gets your rocks off. Then does it truly matter which camera you actually purchase... Buy the one that says WOW to you and makes you walk that bit taller.

The only reason that I buy Canon was that when I was prepared to buy my first dslr, the 550D was the best in the market, at a price that I was willing to pay, at that specific moment in time. I am now invested into the Canon system. I choose not to know anything about any other Camera manufacturer, as I am not prepared to devalue what I have already spent.

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RustyTheGeek

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2013, 03:54:38 PM »
The 6D is a repackaged 5D2, which is a repackaged 20D w/ a FF sensor.

Save your dough and buy a used 5D2+glass or a 5D3.

I keep seeing this same post by RLPhoto in response to the 6D over and over.  I consider RLPhoto a solid and talented photographer who consistently offers great advice here, no offense is intended by my comment but...  his response to the 6D is out of character for him because it indicates an assumption opinion apparently based on specs that isn't backed up by first hand experience.  And the repeated posting of it seems to indicate a desire to prevent others from making a mistake in purchasing the 6D.

I've shot about 4000+ images so far with the 6D I've owned for about a month.  I also own the 5D3, 60D, 40D, 30D and original 5D.  I've shot the 5D2 as well.  The 5D3 and 6D are the first NIB bodies I've purchased.  I normally purchase most of my equipment used.  I agree that the current Canon prices are ridiculous.  I purchased the 6D because I find the 5D3 low light performance and AF to be lacking.  In another month or two I will likely sell either the 5D3 or the 6D.  If Canon somehow magically fixes the 5D3 AF I would be inclined to possibly keep it but as things stand now, unless I do a lot of sports shooting (which I don't), the 6D will easily win this decision.

I can assure you that IMHO (based on actual use) the 6D is not a repackaged 5D2, 20D or whatever is being assumed.  The 6D IQ is comparable to the 5D3 IQ and the 6D is superior to all other cameras in low light.  The 6D simply works great as an entry level (or even mid level) FF camera.  Everything I have read from actual 6D hands-on use and reviews is positive.  My knee-jerk reaction to the 6D spec sheet several months ago was also negative.  But I gave it a chance and I'm glad I did.

My only experience with the 6D is an hour in a camera store, (the camera exchange in SA), and I was not impressed because it felt exactly like the 5D2 but alittle nicer. I also realized using why it doesn't have a joystick because you will only be using the center point for accurate focusing. Set it and forget it. The outer points are
Ok If your at f/4 or so. Still a bit hit or miss.

Strange that the 5D2 is very similar in this main AF aspect. Even the t4i has all cross type AF points! What gives? If they have it the 7D AF system minimum, well I'd probably have one.

I'd rather buy a 5D2 + L lens than spend the cash on the 6D. This is my opinion, and that's my feelings on the camera. I apologize if I may of offended you rusty, but the 6D AF performed no better than my 5Dc or rebel XSI I've used years ago. Perhaps in super low light it will show its magic, but my 5Dc was also fantastic in low light w/ center point AF selected.

Thanks RLPhoto.  Of course I'm not offended, just a bit confused.  I tend to agree with most of your posts and I like your style.  So for that reason, I have been a bit confounded by your thoughts on the 6D.  Personally, I have never been able to learn much about a camera body in the store other than seeing how it feels in the hand and how the menus and controls work.  Otherwise, I have to shoot some stuff in real world use to get an idea about whether I prefer the camera.  I love the original 5Dc and I think the 6D is more similar in use to the 5Dc than the 5D3 is.  The 5D3 is more complicated due to its AF features, etc.

IMO, as I use the 6D and the 5D3 side by side, I am starting to lean toward a similar thought as yours except I would rather own the 6D + L lens instead of paying the price of the 5D3.  (Unless my primary use required the superior 5D3 AF in action shots.)  The IQ of both cameras for normal photography is very close.  And one of my favorite features is the Silent Shutter which is identical on both cameras.
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

RS2021

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2013, 04:18:07 PM »
I call the 6D the "warmed up 5D2". Slightly microwaved in a BPA-free container ;) Its not a knock on the Camera, when they sell it for $1299 in a year during Christmas, I promise to pick one up :P
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 04:20:40 PM by Ray2021 »
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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2013, 04:18:07 PM »

RustyTheGeek

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2013, 04:29:47 PM »
As I use both camera bodies, I agree that Canon is charging too much for the 6D but if that's true, it must also be true that they are charging WAY too much for the 5D3.  Both bodies are overpriced.  As I use both, I am finding that for my use, I am starting to prefer to be gouged less with the overpriced 6D than the 5D3. 
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

schnellergt

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2013, 04:56:59 PM »
I just registered to reply because I feel I can contribute something. I've been a member of Fredmiranda/POTN/DPreview for at least 6+ years and have been using Canon digital cameras for 10 years. A 5DII is currently in my bag. I would call myself a near-professional hobbyist :)

To be honest, I have been disappointed with Canon lately. I get the feeling they offer us the scraps from their table, at a slow pace (for the tech world), and they charge outrageously for this technology. I frankly think they are arrogant and don't listen to their customer base much at all. Whereas, I think Nikon does. Every product of Nkon's since the D700 has outclassed Canon in terms of features. For example, it was Nikon that started pushing dual memory card slots for entry- and mid-level cameras. Nikon has put considerably more pressure on Canon as of late and we Canon users should be thankful for this.

I also think that Sony (Nikon) sensors are superior to that of Canon in two key ways:
1. Analog-digital converter integrated directly into the sensor chip
2. 3D color matrix metering: exposure metering system, operating on data from a dedicated  RGB sensor

Every kick sick of Canon's overblown red channel?

Anyway, all this talk about Nikon led me to rent a D600+ AFS 24-70 2.8G combo from LensRentals a few weeks back. Based on the 4-day experience, I came to the following conclusions:

Nikon Pros (D600 vs 5DII):
Dynamic Range
Metering
AF speed & accuracy
Size & Weight
Availability of some nice, new "value" primes like the AFS 85 1.8G that is superior to the Canon
The best UWA zoom in the business: AFS 12-24 2.8G

Nikon Cons:
Menu layout
Comfort in the hand / grip
Overall build quality, fit & finish (Camera bodies and lenses)
Many lenses not as good as Canon's: 24-70 2.8L II, 70-200 2.8L II IS, 85 1.2L II, etc.

In the end, I came away feeling that Nikon listens to its customers, wants more of them, is trying harder than Canon to get them, is making products that offer a better value in many respects, offers a product with a better sensor in terms of dynamic range and RGB metering, BUT (a big but) is trying to do all this at cut-throat speed and margins to the point that quality and customer service is suffering greatly. Whereas Canon charges a premium for products still mainly Made in Japan that represent a better long-term investment and will likely hold their value longer. Canon products are solid and if I were a field photographer, the choice would be easier in Canon's favor.

After my experiment with the D600, I came within a click or two of selling all my Canon equipment and switching, but I held back. I now read lots of dust/oil complaints with the D600 and this reinforces my impression of the camera's overall fit and finish.

My hope now is that either Nikon will come clean and do a recall, will release a "fixed" D600s, or Canon will fix its dynamic range and metering problems with the 5DIV and in the meantime I will continue to invest in good Canon glass.

tphillips63

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2013, 04:58:44 PM »
I call the 6D the "warmed up 5D2". Slightly microwaved in a BPA-free container ;) Its not a knock on the Camera, when they sell it for $1299 in a year during Christmas, I promise to pick one up :P

I'd probably have a take a good look at that deal too if it happens!

Regarding the 5D Mark II, with it being EOL, how does that affect peoples decision VS the 6D?
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RustyTheGeek

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2013, 05:11:15 PM »
Welcome to the forum schnellergt!  While this forum can't escape the occasional trolls, it's a good forum overall.

I like your thoughtful post describing your experience.  I think the 5D3 is a great camera and did respond to Canon customer demands, at least to a certain extent.  It's still overpriced however and to me, is disappointing in low light AF when that was supposed to be one its big strengths.  The fact that there are two or three distinct classes of user satisfaction in this area (No Problem, Just OK and Terrible) seems to indicate a QA problem in the 5D3 manufacturing process.  I myself moved from the Terrible to the Just OK class after I returned my camera for an exchange.  At this price range however, I wish there wasn't even a discussion about 5D3 low light AF performance except to question how it can be so good all the time for everyone without question.

So at the moment I am enjoying better low light AF with the 6D but I hope the 5D3 low light AF performance somehow magically improves after the next firmware update.  Otherwise, I'll probably stick with the 6D for the foreseeable future and maybe even sell the 5D3.

Thanks again for your input!!
Yes, but what would  surapon  say ??  :D

x-vision

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2013, 05:17:13 PM »
I call the 6D the "warmed up 5D2". Slightly microwaved in a BPA-free container ;) Its not a knock on the Camera, when they sell it for $1299 in a year during Christmas, I promise to pick one up :P

+1000

Canon spec'd the 6D as a $1500 camera but wants to sell it for $2099.
Well, not to me  8).
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 05:51:16 PM by x-vision »

cliffwang

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2013, 05:18:43 PM »
I call the 6D the "warmed up 5D2". Slightly microwaved in a BPA-free container ;) Its not a knock on the Camera, when they sell it for $1299 in a year during Christmas, I promise to pick one up :P

You won't see 1299 for 6D in two years.  If it drops to 1299, I will get one as a backup camera.
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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2013, 05:18:43 PM »

awinphoto

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2013, 05:40:53 PM »
You know... threads like this, to me, as a professional photographer, are humerous... all cameras mentioned in this thread from the 6D to 5d2/5d3 and D600 and D800... these are all professional cameras used every day by professional photographers...  Why on earth do professional photographers charge a small fortune for their services... overhead is a big reason as well as our time...  In the film era very few amateurs had SLR's unless you were really dedicated...  and even fewer had what would be considered a professional SLR...  I'm shocked how popular photography has become since the digital revolution where amateurs afford and buy top tier cameras and then gripe about the price...  It's a tool... a high priced tool...  It would be like me complaining that Profoto strobes are 3-4 times the price if not more of alien bee strobes when essentially they do the same function and size and such... Or tripods... Or monopods... or imagine a carpenter bitching that a table saw costs $250 and another one from another brand is $1200... I can go on and on and on...  Prices aren't fair and by all means, these tools are designed, created, and aimed for their professional market... not pixel peeping amateurs...  yes my latest lens cost nearly $900, but I can make that back in a shoot or two...  That may not be the point, but that is Canon's point... it's a professional tool geared for professionals...  If you want a great tool for your money, buy a rebel. 
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, Canon 85 1.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

RS2021

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2013, 05:51:31 PM »
I call the 6D the "warmed up 5D2". Slightly microwaved in a BPA-free container ;) Its not a knock on the Camera, when they sell it for $1299 in a year during Christmas, I promise to pick one up :P

You won't see 1299 for 6D in two years.  If it drops to 1299, I will get one as a backup camera.

Not many people thought Canon will be shifting 5D3's at ~$2600 just few months after release at 3.5K !!!  (call it bundle deals, promotions, or ebay by adorama...but there it is).

But my comment on 6D was tongue-in-cheek... I do not foresee picking up a 6D even at $1299 in a year... and as for your comment "won't see $1299 in two years!"... Two years!!! 

Who in their right mind would want a 11 point AF with a few frills and marginally tweaked legacy sensor tech in 2015 January!!! Canon will have to hope and pray for more people like you. In two years (say...2015 January), Canon will be lucky if they can shift that camera for $1000 from the back of the truck. As for resale value... we wont go there. We will be seeing new stuff from both Canon as well as the competitors in 2013...and more in by the year after. 6D, like most things in the tech world, though introduced at high prices as a supermodel, is likely to be found at the curb in a year or two as a granny wearing Depends :).  Center stage will belong to younger models.

I am sure Adorama will be selling it by September on their "ebay store" (ahem... what a convenient loophole) for some deep discount, so if you are a big fan...just pick one up and enjoy...now or whenever it suits you. :)

« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 06:17:59 PM by Ray2021 »
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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2013, 05:51:31 PM »