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Author Topic: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...  (Read 19856 times)

well_dunno

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2013, 05:02:13 PM »
Had a chat with a local photographer who has a D800E the other day. He said it is difficult to get the exposure wrong with the cam. Though his first comment, or rather complaint,  was on the file sizes coming out of the cam and the kind of pc power he needed to process them.  Moire is apparently not a big issue when present, becoming visible when viewed above 80%. He was a bit   :-\ due to Nikon tele lens performance on the cam. Neither full DR nor the full resolution seem to come to use, at least for what he shoots... Rather, good to be able to if needed he said.

Reminded me what Mt Spokane said  here many times re the D800...

Cheers!

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2013, 05:02:13 PM »

awinphoto

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #106 on: January 03, 2013, 05:08:31 PM »
It is possible that Canon is cutting fewer corners than Nikon.

No.

Canon is just overpricing. That's all.

As other posters said, Canon also had issues that they did nor admit.
For example, it took them more than a year to admit the 1D3 focusing issue and provide a fix (which did not work for all, btw).
And the fix for the 'falling 5D mirror' issue was provided after the 5DII was already announced.

To their credit, Canon admitted the 5DII 'black dots' issue right away.
They did the same with the 5DIII 'light leak' issue as well.

The D600 oil/dust issue goes away after a certain number of shots (as shown by LensRentals).
Still, Nikon customers are in their full right to ask Nikon to admit and address the issue.

Overall, both companies have a history of unforeseen issues; no corner cutting.

I know... damn them for forcing me to pay $3499 for my 5d3 and additional for my overpriced L lenses... I demand Canon send me a refund for the difference... please?  Pretty please?  lol
Canon 5d III, Canon 24-105L, Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 F4L, Canon 100L 2.8, 430EX 2's and a lot of bumps along the road to get to where I am.

well_dunno

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #107 on: January 03, 2013, 05:27:23 PM »
 

Canon is just overpricing. That's all.


+1, or Nikon is underpricing... I recall reading Nikon stated their policy was to absorb the costs generated by the exchange rates due to strong Yen.

Yen should be weaker this year overall. At least during the last couple of months, the Japanese government has been employing monetary policies to achieve that and avoid any potential recession. We might see lower US$/Euro/£ prices for Canon this year...

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Aglet

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #108 on: January 03, 2013, 06:18:36 PM »
you guys are SO funny.
Humor your way of acknowledging defeat? ;)

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...   ;D
Its only a problem if you miss your exposure 3 stops.  :o
or just dial back your contrast setting, or try Canon's own built-in LANDSCAPE style. Try both if you like stripes.
boost shadows another stop or 2 if blind or on uncalibrated monitor.

Those of use who bought the Canon fanboy hype about the 5d2 and purchased early were richly disappointed.
Mine sat unused in a drawer for most of a year until I found that the firmware updates actually improved things enough to make the camera usable without obvious MIDTONE banding any more.  MOST times anyway.

If you forgot, have a little refresher.  We're here to educate and elucidate:

www.google.ca/search?=en&q=sky+banding+canon+5d+mark+II

see FIRMWARE topic on the wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS_5D_Mark_II#Firmware_updates

bdunbar79

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #109 on: January 03, 2013, 06:26:43 PM »
you guys are SO funny.
Humor your way of acknowledging defeat? ;)

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...   ;D
Its only a problem if you miss your exposure 3 stops.  :o
or just dial back your contrast setting, or try Canon's own built-in LANDSCAPE style. Try both if you like stripes.
boost shadows another stop or 2 if blind or on uncalibrated monitor.

Those of use who bought the Canon fanboy hype about the 5d2 and purchased early were richly disappointed.
Mine sat unused in a drawer for most of a year until I found that the firmware updates actually improved things enough to make the camera usable without obvious MIDTONE banding any more.  MOST times anyway.

If you forgot, have a little refresher.  We're here to educate and elucidate:

www.google.ca/search?=en&q=sky+banding+canon+5d+mark+II

see FIRMWARE topic on the wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS_5D_Mark_II#Firmware_updates

So would it make you feel better and as though you've accomplished something with your life if I say, "Ok, you win."

Good job.  I actually have important things to do, like my career.  By the way, I bought the fan boy hype of the 5D2 and bought early and I wasn't disappointed.  Maybe photography is what you should focus on, rather than camera models?
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RLPhoto

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #110 on: January 03, 2013, 07:56:41 PM »
you guys are SO funny.
Humor your way of acknowledging defeat? ;)

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...   ;D
Its only a problem if you miss your exposure 3 stops.  :o
or just dial back your contrast setting, or try Canon's own built-in LANDSCAPE style. Try both if you like stripes.
boost shadows another stop or 2 if blind or on uncalibrated monitor.

Those of use who bought the Canon fanboy hype about the 5d2 and purchased early were richly disappointed.
Mine sat unused in a drawer for most of a year until I found that the firmware updates actually improved things enough to make the camera usable without obvious MIDTONE banding any more.  MOST times anyway.

If you forgot, have a little refresher.  We're here to educate and elucidate:

www.google.ca/search?=en&q=sky+banding+canon+5d+mark+II

see FIRMWARE topic on the wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS_5D_Mark_II#Firmware_updates

I believe you are over blowing the noise issue. All my landscape photos I submit to istock photos came from canon cameras and they have some of strictest standard for files. They do quite well for me.

If you get your exposure right, there should be no issues.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 07:58:50 PM by RLPhoto »

bdunbar79

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #111 on: January 03, 2013, 08:00:51 PM »
you guys are SO funny.
Humor your way of acknowledging defeat? ;)

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...   ;D
Its only a problem if you miss your exposure 3 stops.  :o
or just dial back your contrast setting, or try Canon's own built-in LANDSCAPE style. Try both if you like stripes.
boost shadows another stop or 2 if blind or on uncalibrated monitor.

Those of use who bought the Canon fanboy hype about the 5d2 and purchased early were richly disappointed.
Mine sat unused in a drawer for most of a year until I found that the firmware updates actually improved things enough to make the camera usable without obvious MIDTONE banding any more.  MOST times anyway.

If you forgot, have a little refresher.  We're here to educate and elucidate:

www.google.ca/search?=en&q=sky+banding+canon+5d+mark+II

see FIRMWARE topic on the wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS_5D_Mark_II#Firmware_updates

I believe you are over blowing the noise issue. All my landscape photos I submit to istock photos came from canon cameras and they have some of strictest standard for files. They do quite well for me.

If you get your exposure right, there should be no issues.

I'm not still not clear on what issue he is trying to raise.
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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #111 on: January 03, 2013, 08:00:51 PM »

Stichus III

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #112 on: January 03, 2013, 08:37:02 PM »

Not really, both companies have about the same track record; AF problems with D800 & 1d3, d600spills, 5d2mirrors, Lens QC for both etc etc.

The're way more complains about overpricing in the canon forums than nikon's though.
Pattern that started a couple of years ago with the 70-200II & IS lenses i think.

Meli, I don't agree with you.

The 1d3 came out in 2007. The 5d2 in 2008. The D800 and the D600 came out in 2012. Your conclusion that it is not possible that Canon is currently cutting fewer corners than Nikon, is simply not supported by your argument that the 1d3 and the 5d2 had flaws. 

The assertion that there are many more complaints about overpricing in Canon forums than in the Nikon forums, which is not something we can easily verify, says nothing about whether or not Nikon is cutting more corners than Canon. 

« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 08:39:39 PM by Stichus III »

sanj

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #113 on: January 03, 2013, 11:08:49 PM »
seriously, show me how to reproduce this in actual shooting. I've never seen anything remotely like banded skies in any of my 5D Mark II shots.

I thought everyone knew. 

  • Set your camera to M mode
  • Point it at the sky
  • From the metered exposure, reduce by 4 or more stops (note, some cameras do not properly display this on the meter in the viewfinder, so you may need to be an experienced enough photographer to calculate a 4-stop underexposure in your head)
  • Take the picture
  • During post-processing, raise the exposure by 4 or more stops (note, some RAW converters do not allow you to adjust exposure by that much, notably, Canon's own DPP is restricted to just 2 stops - and of course, that's by design, because Canon knows that their sensor performance breaks down when pushed by 4 EV, so they are taking steps to mask their own inadequacies...but I digress).
  • Now, look at the image - you'll notice the banding

Once you know the steps, it's easy to be affected by this horribly common problem that destroys the IQ of the 5DII.  That's why I sold that piece of crap camera.  All that horrible banding in the skies when I underexposed my images by 4 stops.



Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...   ;D

Hahahahaha! Well said...


Aglet

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #115 on: January 04, 2013, 02:16:59 AM »
@ RLPhoto - nothing personal but this near diatribe I've written here is a culmination of of seeing the same hash from the same multiple sources (pg7, pg8), you just happened to have been under the quote button.  :)
I believe you are over blowing the noise issue. All my landscape photos I submit to istock photos came from canon cameras and they have some of strictest standard for files. They do quite well for me.

If you get your exposure right, there should be no issues.

sigh... again... ???

I'm glad istock likes your stuff but that doesn't trump what I and a few other people here have said, repeatedly, ad nauseam about FPN (fixed pattern noise) problems with Canon cameras.

If you're not pushing the limits of your raw files for any artistic or DR compression purposes (and it's not all abstract, really) then you may as well shoot jpg because you'll not likely notice the difference.

It has NOTHING to do with "getting the exposure right."

It has only to do with FPN weakness of the imaging system.

Just because what you, any many others, do works for you, doesn't mean it works for everyone.
We don't shoot the same subjects, we don't shoot the same way.  If we did, it'd be pointless for us to both be doing it.  What you do is not any more "correct" than what I do, it's just different, and the tool you find adequate does not work well for me.

You want to paddle a canoe with a canoe paddle, sure, works good.
You try paddle a kayak with a canoe paddle, it's not so good any more, is it?

Not all bodies of a given type exhibit FPN at the same level.
I have an early 5d2, I had an early 7d.  They both sucked with serious FPN, and so did many other bodies produced in the same time frame. (& yes, I've complained to my local Canon rep directly)
You (RL) may have lucked out with cleaner versions of these same bodies.  I, and many others, did not.  And the way I want to use the gear I paid good money for is compromised because of these problems.  That initially rendered some very expensive outings and shoots a serious loss because I do not accept images with this kind of flaw and even sophisticated post-processed is unable to adequately ameliorate the problem.
FWIW, my 40D, 60D, 350D, 400D, 450D, G11, G12, and needless to say my recent Nikons and even my new Pentax Q, suffice for the same kind of "extreme" shots the 5d2 and 7d fail at because they don't have FPN to the same extent; so can you still tell me it's my technique?  Part of my fun comes from pushing the limits of low end cameras to get good images.  It's pretty disappointing when "high end" cameras have worse IQ than some very much lower end cameras.

The simple fact is that my 5d2, even with latest firmware, shows FPN in shadows of PROPERLY exposed images, even without any significant shadow lifting. It's not the only lousy 5d2 either.  Plenty of people have noticed this same FPN issue, they've posted it in these forums, they've mostly all been rebuked by the regulars, some of which should have the technical knowledge to know better since I've seen such demonstrated regularly.

I'm still hoping Canon will pull a rabbit out of their hat this yeat with new sensor tech that will drastically improve low FPN and low ISO DR while we're at it.

Have a look at my first post on page 5 of this topic if you missed it.
www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=12029.60

This topic has devolved so far from the OP's initial query as to likely have bored them.  It started off with good intentions in the first few pages but here we are again. :-\


Aglet

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2013, 02:28:36 AM »
So would it make you feel better and as though you've accomplished something with your life if I say, "Ok, you win."
only if you actually understand, otherwise we're wasting time
Good job.  I actually have important things to do, like my career.
  . . .
  By the way, I bought the fan boy hype of the 5D2 and bought early and I wasn't disappointed.  Maybe photography is what you should focus on, rather than camera models?
35 years of photography and hybrid electronic, data-acquisition and mechatronic systems design experience, all apparently wasted.
Maybe I'll try again when I retire. ;)

RLPhoto

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2013, 08:38:12 AM »
@ RLPhoto - nothing personal but this near diatribe I've written here is a culmination of of seeing the same hash from the same multiple sources (pg7, pg8), you just happened to have been under the quote button.  :)
I believe you are over blowing the noise issue. All my landscape photos I submit to istock photos came from canon cameras and they have some of strictest standard for files. They do quite well for me.

If you get your exposure right, there should be no issues.

sigh... again... ???

I'm glad istock likes your stuff but that doesn't trump what I and a few other people here have said, repeatedly, ad nauseam about FPN (fixed pattern noise) problems with Canon cameras.

If you're not pushing the limits of your raw files for any artistic or DR compression purposes (and it's not all abstract, really) then you may as well shoot jpg because you'll not likely notice the difference.

It has NOTHING to do with "getting the exposure right."

It has only to do with FPN weakness of the imaging system.

Just because what you, any many others, do works for you, doesn't mean it works for everyone.
We don't shoot the same subjects, we don't shoot the same way.  If we did, it'd be pointless for us to both be doing it.  What you do is not any more "correct" than what I do, it's just different, and the tool you find adequate does not work well for me.

You want to paddle a canoe with a canoe paddle, sure, works good.
You try paddle a kayak with a canoe paddle, it's not so good any more, is it?

Not all bodies of a given type exhibit FPN at the same level.
I have an early 5d2, I had an early 7d.  They both sucked with serious FPN, and so did many other bodies produced in the same time frame. (& yes, I've complained to my local Canon rep directly)
You (RL) may have lucked out with cleaner versions of these same bodies.  I, and many others, did not.  And the way I want to use the gear I paid good money for is compromised because of these problems.  That initially rendered some very expensive outings and shoots a serious loss because I do not accept images with this kind of flaw and even sophisticated post-processed is unable to adequately ameliorate the problem.
FWIW, my 40D, 60D, 350D, 400D, 450D, G11, G12, and needless to say my recent Nikons and even my new Pentax Q, suffice for the same kind of "extreme" shots the 5d2 and 7d fail at because they don't have FPN to the same extent; so can you still tell me it's my technique?  Part of my fun comes from pushing the limits of low end cameras to get good images.  It's pretty disappointing when "high end" cameras have worse IQ than some very much lower end cameras.

The simple fact is that my 5d2, even with latest firmware, shows FPN in shadows of PROPERLY exposed images, even without any significant shadow lifting. It's not the only lousy 5d2 either.  Plenty of people have noticed this same FPN issue, they've posted it in these forums, they've mostly all been rebuked by the regulars, some of which should have the technical knowledge to know better since I've seen such demonstrated regularly.

I'm still hoping Canon will pull a rabbit out of their hat this yeat with new sensor tech that will drastically improve low FPN and low ISO DR while we're at it.

Have a look at my first post on page 5 of this topic if you missed it.
www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=12029.60

This topic has devolved so far from the OP's initial query as to likely have bored them.  It started off with good intentions in the first few pages but here we are again. :-\

I simply don't believe that you could hold your standards higher than istock photo/ Getty images, which BTW view every image @ 100% for FPN, banding, artifacts, blah blah blah. Which allows anyone's photos to be printed at maximum size and ultimate quality.

And I pushed a lot of my files hard to get what I'm looking for, and still are accepted. If you hold your files to an even higher standard, I can't imagine what on earth you'll be doing with your photos because every photo I submit has to be gallery quality already.


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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2013, 08:38:12 AM »

bdunbar79

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2013, 09:59:00 AM »
Oh lighten up everybody.
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sdsr

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2013, 10:25:34 AM »
Oh lighten up everybody.

Ha. Not a good idea unless we own Nikons, apparently....

I guess I'm lucky that my aesthetic preferences prevent me from pushing the dark areas of photos I take with my 5DII to the extent that I can see banding.  (Nor could I see any difference in this regard between the 6D and D600 when I rented them last weekend.)

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Re: Moving to FF Canon vs Nikon - I'm Confused...
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2013, 10:25:34 AM »