October 21, 2014, 02:48:52 PM

Author Topic: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO  (Read 11012 times)

Aglet

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Got to play with one a bit at the shop today, shot some dark frames and pushed them as i usually do to better visualize the pesky noise patterns.

The 6D is considerably improved over the 5d2 and even 5d3.  Although the total amount of dark level noise is not so greatly reduced, the subjective annoyance of its patterning is noticeably less.

5d2 could produce some fairly harsh noise lines (hor. & vert) in shadows at 100 ISO, they soften a bit from random noise at 400 ISO and up.

6d, at the same ISO settings, produces far less obviously structured noise lines.  THIS IS A GOOD THING! :)
Canon has actually made some significant improvement in this area over the older cameras!

6d's overall noise is more random and uniform, tho still exhibits some fine vertical stripe structures at 400 ISO, similar to 7d's low iso noise but not as severe.  Overall there is still some coarse but smooth transition variations in horizontal and vertical axis, almost like large blotchiness.  This would not show up on large prints anywhere near as bad as 5d2 or 7d noise stripes.

6d's subjective total noise at 400 iso is similar to 5d2 at 100 iso.  And the 6d's noise would clean up better with NR software.

6d's high iso performance is impressive!
I could print a decent 6x9" from a reasonably exposed 25600 iso shot! (larger if not too fussy)

So, altho 6D's dynamic range will not be significantly better than 5D bodies at low ISO, its raw files should provide more post-processing leeway because of the reduced severity of patterned noise. Its extra performance at high ISO is a definite bonus.
Fussy shooters who do a lot of post-processing should definitely consider the 6D over either 5D body if low ISO performance is critical to their work.

 SoNikon sensored cameras still do blow the 6D into the weeds with far cleaner low ISO data.
Hopefully Canon's (soon to be released?) next generation sensors will further improve on this dark/read noise issue.

As it is now, I am very tempted to sell my 5D2 to fund the 6D, it's that much more usable to me.

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Stichus III

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2013, 08:41:14 AM »
Sounds great.

Could you maybe post some sample images?

David Hull

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2013, 11:17:59 AM »
Got to play with one a bit at the shop today, shot some dark frames and pushed them as i usually do to better visualize the pesky noise patterns.

The 6D is considerably improved over the 5d2 and even 5d3.  Although the total amount of dark level noise is not so greatly reduced, the subjective annoyance of its patterning is noticeably less.

5d2 could produce some fairly harsh noise lines (hor. & vert) in shadows at 100 ISO, they soften a bit from random noise at 400 ISO and up.

6d, at the same ISO settings, produces far less obviously structured noise lines.  THIS IS A GOOD THING! :)
Canon has actually made some significant improvement in this area over the older cameras!

6d's overall noise is more random and uniform, tho still exhibits some fine vertical stripe structures at 400 ISO, similar to 7d's low iso noise but not as severe.  Overall there is still some coarse but smooth transition variations in horizontal and vertical axis, almost like large blotchiness.  This would not show up on large prints anywhere near as bad as 5d2 or 7d noise stripes.

6d's subjective total noise at 400 iso is similar to 5d2 at 100 iso.  And the 6d's noise would clean up better with NR software.

6d's high iso performance is impressive!
I could print a decent 6x9" from a reasonably exposed 25600 iso shot! (larger if not too fussy)

So, altho 6D's dynamic range will not be significantly better than 5D bodies at low ISO, its raw files should provide more post-processing leeway because of the reduced severity of patterned noise. Its extra performance at high ISO is a definite bonus.
Fussy shooters who do a lot of post-processing should definitely consider the 6D over either 5D body if low ISO performance is critical to their work.

 SoNikon sensored cameras still do blow the 6D into the weeds with far cleaner low ISO data.
Hopefully Canon's (soon to be released?) next generation sensors will further improve on this dark/read noise issue.

As it is now, I am very tempted to sell my 5D2 to fund the 6D, it's that much more usable to me.

I have seen the same thing (having owned a 5DII and now a 5DIII).  The noise seems to be about the same in the case of the 5DIII but it is predominantly one dimensional which allows it to be MUCH more easily dealt with by some of the third party NR plugins like those from Topaz and Nik.  The DxO measured DR remains the same though so the fanboys who are used to making a big deal about that will not be disappointed :-)

dswatson83

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2013, 03:07:39 PM »
There is a review at : http://learningcameras.com/reviews/4-dslrs/91-canon-6d-review
with a bunch of pictures of the 6D noise from ISO 1600-25000

Also has some dynamic range tests with the shadows pushed.
There is also a 5D mark III (couldn't find a mark II) test with the 6D : http://learningcameras.com/reviews/4-dslrs/92-canon-6d-vs-5d-mark-iii
that shows noise and dynamic range results.

It does seem that the 6D is considerably better than the older cameras like the 5D2 and just a tiny bit better than the 5D3. Though when it comes to dynamic range, the Canon cameras are still way behind Nikon.

Ricku

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2013, 12:59:20 PM »
Thanks for the info! :)

It sounds like Canon rushed the 5D3, in order top stop Nikon D800 from "stealing the whole show".

The 6D sensor should clearly have been in the 5D3, and the 5D3 sensor in the 6D.

Marsu42

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2013, 01:59:09 PM »
As it is now, I am very tempted to sell my 5D2 to fund the 6D, it's that much more usable to me.

I applaud Canon's effort with the 6d as they managed to adapt their current "legacy" tech to meet customer's expectations = low iso noise and a bit more dr. But don't forget the 6d is also less sharp since obviously it has more forced nr than the 5d3 - so for comparisons the 5d2/5d3 images have to be downscaled a bit and then nr'ed to match the 6d's sharpness. The improved banding reducton is a clear, non debatable plus though.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2013, 02:12:32 PM »
6d, at the same ISO settings, produces far less obviously structured noise lines.  THIS IS A GOOD THING! :)
Canon has actually made some significant improvement in this area over the older cameras!


Actually more like significant improvement in this over over the newer cameras! (since the 1Ds3 and even 40D already did this more than half a decade ago  ;) ). But yeah it is good that they at least have back to their past best banding levels. Certainly a shame that they didn't bother to do that for the 5D3 which was pretty ridiculous.

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2013, 02:12:32 PM »

Ricku

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2013, 02:54:04 PM »
I've been looking for some downloadable 6D raw-files for hours, but haven't been able to find any.

Can someone here be so kind and upload a couple of raw files for me? :) ISO 100 - 400.

You can use quick file sharing services like http://www.zippyshare.com/ or http://www.sendspace.com/

I just want to play around with the sliders in Lightroom and see how the files hold up.

jonathan7007

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2013, 03:00:04 PM »
LetThe...
Your comment seems to say the 1DsMkIII had no low ISO noise/banding. As someone considering purchasing one I wanted to confirm that positive endorsement (if that's what it was!)
The 5DMkIII and 6D are a confusing pair of cameras. Like the earlier poster I'd like to mix the features differently, some from each... my 5DMkIII a poor copy, I believe, but wished for more improvement in IQ over the 5DMkII.

jonathan7007

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2013, 03:24:01 PM »
One question is, what will happen to Nikon if Canon's next generation sensors actually do get closer to their DR performance, let alone equal or best it?  They will continue to lose market share, that's what...then Nikon fanbois will be going off the deepend...And again, how do you Nikonians manage that ridiculous grip, shutter release placement, and rear panel ergonomics? 

Dswatson83, interesting link, I will look at it carefully.

Interesting that there's vertical band noise, where my 50D has horizontal band noise.  I'm sure it's idiotic to ask what is common knowledge on here, but why is one vertical and the other horizontal?  One is full frame, the other crop...is there something about the smaller size that makes the banding horizontal?

The problem I noticed with my cousin's 5D3 files in Lightroom 4, was a coarse pebble like grain noise at ISO 4000 (not related to color), which LR4 couldn't take away without losing a lot of detail.  The luminance slider had to be all the way up to like 85 or 90, to make any difference...and then all the detail is gone.  I didn't notice any banding or much color noise, although I'm sure it had some.

So my question is, what do all of you experts do about this coarse grain?  I presume Topaz or some other plugin does better than LR4, for this aspect of noise also (besides the color banding)?

DanielW

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2013, 03:44:45 PM »
What if Canon simply ditched the 5D3's sensor and put the 6D's sensor in it? I mean, same body, same AF system, everything, but made all 5D3s with the 6D's sensor from now on... Same sensor size, same company... Is it feasible, on the technical side?
Daniel

bgran8

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2013, 03:47:43 PM »
"5d2 could produce some fairly harsh noise lines (hor. & vert) in shadows at 100 ISO, they soften a bit from random noise at 400 ISO and up."

Is it better to shoot with the 5d2 at ISO 400 than ISO 100 to avoid the pattern noise? Thanks.

Ricku

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2013, 03:59:53 PM »
What if Canon simply ditched the 5D3's sensor and put the 6D's sensor in it? I mean, same body, same AF system, everything, but made all 5D3s with the 6D's sensor from now on... Same sensor size, same company... Is it feasible, on the technical side?
Daniel
That'd be very nice, but it ain't gonna happen.

A lot of people who already bought the 5D3 would go berserk! Even the ones who claim that they are perfectly happy with the current sensor, and that they don't need more DR for "their shooting style". ;) They would instantly change their mind and start whining.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 04:03:34 PM by Ricku »

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2013, 03:59:53 PM »

Marsu42

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2013, 04:07:45 PM »
What if Canon simply ditched the 5D3's sensor and put the 6D's sensor in it?

From the reviews I read and the raw samples I looked at myself you're absolutely overestimating the 5d3/6d difference - the 6d might have 1/3 stop less iso noise, but the 5d3 also has improved banding, has more resolution and is sharper than the 6d. Except maybe for iso12800 (favors 6d) or low iso studio shots (favors 5d3) the differences won't show.

Edit: removed assumption about aa filter strenght on the 6d, sorry.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 06:07:32 PM by Marsu42 »

Ricku

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2013, 04:32:44 PM »
Marsu: Could you please link some of those comparisons between the 6D and 5D3? I mean one that proves the 5D3 is sharper?

I have searched but did not find any.

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2013, 04:32:44 PM »