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Author Topic: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO  (Read 10414 times)

Aglet

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2013, 07:16:09 PM »
i DID notice one more little flaw of sorts that affected my 5d2 and the 6d I looked at.
Altho it appears similar to FPN, it likely is not a noise issue but a small variation in pixel performance occurring .

I'll have to post the shots when I have time to monkey with them some more but the effect is this;

A "ribbon" shaped area was affected such that when shooting SMOOTH MIDTONES there was some fine vertical banding-like structure evident.  This is actually the first flaw i noticed on my 5d2 when i bought it but thought it was a noise issue at the time.  If it were a normal FPN issue,the banding would have been evident over the whole range of the smooth tone area.  instead, it was confined to a ribbon-like shape that meandered a bit over part of the sensor.

I managed to replicate and identify it by shooting a flat surface and enhancing the heck out of the contrast.
But it was in a real image of a foggy mountain lake at sunrise where i first found it.

So far I've only found this on the 5d2 and 6D.
I've sold my 5d2 recently, now waiting for price drop before getting a 6d, if I get one at all.

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2013, 07:16:09 PM »

Marsu42

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2013, 07:32:08 PM »
But my point is that Canon has really muddied the waters for potential customers like myself.  If the 5D3 was clearly superior in every way, I would be purchasing one right now.  It's not, so I didn't.  Was that in Canon's best interest?

You just got a bunch of Canon marketing guys fired :-> ... they really tried *everything* to make the 6d look inferior to the 5d3, esp. in the specs - except for the anti-d600 joker "low light af" and the button layout / smaller size, but on the latter they probably aren't sure themselves if this is good (travel) or bad (i.e. to make it look less "pro").

bseitz234

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2013, 07:52:10 PM »
Dustin-

Is there a post somewhere you've expounded on your decision making process, 6d vs 5d3? Curious because I bought a 7d around the time the 6d was released, decided at the time it wasn't worth paying for FF for my needs, and the 7d was half the price, and so far I've loved it. But there's still this part of me nagging to get into FF, and I'd love as much info as you are willing to spend the time to type out on a forum... haha.

Thanks!!

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CarlTN

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2013, 10:42:27 PM »
Dustin, what sort of photography do you mostly do?  I too am wanting to decide which camera to buy, but won't actually buy for months.  How workable is the AF on the 6D?  I've only had a 5D3 in my hands, not really gotten to play with it much.  Tried to tweak the files in LR4, didn't work too well.

Ivan Muller

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2013, 05:05:14 AM »
Had a look at the 6d the other day and there was lots and lots to like, the handling is superb even with the missing joystick. I love the way the silent shutter sounds and focus seemed better than my 5d2...the thing is my 5d2 delivers the goods in spades, I can shoot happily up to 6400 and topaz cleans up most if not all of the visible banding in the shadows and when I overexpose the images a bit, then the shadows are clean and there is still plenty of detail in the highlights even if it looks overexposed...me I am waiting for that D800 competitor camera to be launched..until then my 5d2 works just fine and no client has ever complained about the image quality.

pedro

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2013, 05:42:27 AM »
What if Canon simply ditched the 5D3's sensor and put the 6D's sensor in it? I mean, same body, same AF system, everything, but made all 5D3s with the 6D's sensor from now on... Same sensor size, same company... Is it feasible, on the technical side?
Daniel
I also believe that the 5D3 will have a much shorter product cycle than the previous 5D-cameras. A replacement (the 5DX?) will most likely come sooner than later.

A shorter product cycle seems intresting. Can't wait to see the improvements in high ISO IQ. But I am sorry to say that, I'd be a bit of dissapointed if the 5D's were about to turn out to be the D800 equivalents. My 5D3 is too much of great allround cam at its MP count. I bought it especially because of its high ISO qualities. But anyway, as long as they maintain that or even improve it, why not? Hope they keep to M and S-Raw modes. Cheers, Pedro
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 05:45:53 AM by pedro »
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MintMark

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2013, 08:02:33 AM »
I don't think that I ever said that you could "not tell anything about it".  I do question trying to make such a strong point that seems to contradict prevailing wisdom without more evidence to back it up...and I don't recall you ever actually quoting a source.

Well, you didn't ask for a source on any specific item yet :-) ... and sorry if I seemed to generalize your post, I was also commenting on various other past threads where the idea that you have to own something to be able to comment on it is often mentioned - so sorry for being too strong on this.


Can I ask about the 6D sharpness compared to the 5D3? Is it just the slightly higher pixel density of the 5D3 or do you think there is another factor in play?

Thanks,

  Mark

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2013, 08:02:33 AM »

Marsu42

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2013, 11:53:31 AM »
Can I ask about the 6D sharpness compared to the 5D3? Is it just the slightly higher pixel density of the 5D3 or do you think there is another factor in play?

You can discover this yourself by downloading any raw files with fine details yourself, use the dpreview widget http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-6d/11 or look at this comparison: http://www.etherpilot.com/photo/test/misc/6d_5d3_d600.jpg

The difference is not big enough to make a difference for me, but it is visible. The best test I know concerning the resolution differences is on the German site traumflieger.de - look for the 6d review video.

From what I've read and seen for myself this is not only due to the lower resolution of the 6d, but because Canon applies more forced noise reduction to the 6d raw files - look at the strong chroma noise on the 5d3 in black areas, it's nearly completely gone on the 6d but at a loss of sharpness.

To put it another way: If you downsize the 5d3 files to 6d resolution and apply strong chroma and mild luma nr until the sharpness matches the 6d it's a wash except for a slight luma noise advantage of the 6d @same iso: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=11279.msg202164#msg202164

MintMark

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2013, 12:49:10 PM »
Thank you for replying. I have seen those comparisons before but I'm not sure I share the same conclusion.
Looking at the Siemens star in the centre of the dpreview scene at various ISOs, it's hard for me to see a difference in resolution between the 6D and the 5D3. Especially at high ISO, the colour blotches obscure the fine detail for both cameras. At low ISO they seem equivalent to me.

What makes you think Canon is applying noise reduction to the raw data?

Marsu42

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2013, 01:04:59 PM »
Looking at the Siemens star in the centre of the dpreview scene at various ISOs, it's hard for me to see a difference in resolution between the 6D and the 5D3. Especially at high ISO, the colour blotches obscure the fine detail for both cameras. At low ISO they seem equivalent to me.

I didn't have an in-depth look at the dpreview shots since they only came out recently. It's a pity you probably cannot understand the German traumflieger.de review. I'd suggest downloading some raw samples yourself and have a look in LR - I did this with the raw files from http://www.focus-numerique.com/test-1566/reflex-canon-6d-bruit-electronique-12.html and compared the print on the circuit board and the shadow noise at zero nr.

What makes you think Canon is applying noise reduction to the raw data?

Look at the other CR link I posted, there are 5d3/6d comparisons w/o nr and no way the 6d can have that little chroma noise at low iso w/o some nr. Afaik Canon also applies nr to the 5d3 et al on higher iso levels, and I know Nikon does.

Meh

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2013, 02:11:19 PM »
Canon can not be equal with theirs old  sensor lay out and and  and signal  path way.
Thera are no indications that Canon has gone from the   old 180nm  tech to Sonys, Panasonic Aptina, Toshiba tech which are down at 65nm

http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/2012/10/24/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/

Canon is at 500nm.

Nikon 350nm & 250nm

Sony at 250nm & 180nm (though technically the 180 is in the Nikon D800)

Where are you getting 65nm from?

then read again

I said Sony and others are down at 65nm, the Sony  APS etc are made at 90nm, canon are still at 180nm

Read what again?  Do you have a reference for the numbers you gave?

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2013, 02:13:54 PM »
Dustin-

Is there a post somewhere you've expounded on your decision making process, 6d vs 5d3? Curious because I bought a 7d around the time the 6d was released, decided at the time it wasn't worth paying for FF for my needs, and the 7d was half the price, and so far I've loved it. But there's still this part of me nagging to get into FF, and I'd love as much info as you are willing to spend the time to type out on a forum... haha.

Thanks!!

I have blogged at length about that process at my website here:  http://www.dustinabbott.net/2013/02/why-i-chose-a-canon-eos-6d-over-a-5d-mkiii/  Hopefully this can help someone who is trying to make a decision like I was
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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2013, 02:14:58 PM »
Dustin, what sort of photography do you mostly do?  I too am wanting to decide which camera to buy, but won't actually buy for months.  How workable is the AF on the 6D?  I've only had a 5D3 in my hands, not really gotten to play with it much.  Tried to tweak the files in LR4, didn't work too well.

Carl, see the link in the post above.  I hope this helps!
6D x 2 | EOS-M w/22mm f/2 + 18-55 STM + EF Adapter| Rokinon 14mm f/2.8 | Tamron 24-70 f/2.8 VC | 35mm f/2 IS | 40mm f/2.8 | 100L | 135L | 70-300L -----OLD SCHOOL----- SMC Takumar 28mm f/3.5, Super Takumar 35mm f/3.5, SMC Takumar 55mm f/1.8, Helios 44-2 and 44-4, Super Takumar 150mm f/4

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2013, 02:14:58 PM »

CarlTN

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2013, 02:15:59 PM »
Don't feel like looking over all that again.

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2013, 02:19:53 PM »
Don't feel like looking over all that again.

If you are referring to the link I posted, I just got through writing all of this in answer to the questions that you and others have asked in regards to the 6D.  There is no "again" here.
6D x 2 | EOS-M w/22mm f/2 + 18-55 STM + EF Adapter| Rokinon 14mm f/2.8 | Tamron 24-70 f/2.8 VC | 35mm f/2 IS | 40mm f/2.8 | 100L | 135L | 70-300L -----OLD SCHOOL----- SMC Takumar 28mm f/3.5, Super Takumar 35mm f/3.5, SMC Takumar 55mm f/1.8, Helios 44-2 and 44-4, Super Takumar 150mm f/4

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Re: 6D pattern noise compared to 5D2, the info you won't get from DxO
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2013, 02:19:53 PM »