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Author Topic: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C  (Read 15217 times)

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Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« on: January 08, 2013, 03:57:07 PM »

Is it different from the EOS-1D X?

We had a chance to peer inside the EOS-1D C (No photos allowed) to find out how much it differed from the EOS-1D X. The differences are minimal, the biggest change is theĀ heat sinkĀ inside the camera to keep the sensor circuitry cool during 4K video operation.


Firmware

The EOS-1D X has some traces of the EOS-1D C firmware code and the features are locked. We don’t know how much of the firmware is the same.


Third Party Firmware?

I was told by someone at Canon that they would “bring the might of its legal team” to anyone that attempts to modify at the software level, the features of an EOS-1 camera body. So I think the firmware community out there today will probably leave the EOS-1D X alone.


More to come on this topic I’m sure. I am hopeful that someone provides pictures of the inside of the EOS-1D C in direct comparison to the EOS-1D X.


Why does it cost so much more?

Production of the EOS-1D C is going to be a lot less than even the limited production EOS-1D X. Especially when you compare the numbers to the 5D Mark III or a Rebel. The software development will also add a lot of cost to the camera. How much bigger their margin is on the EOS-1D C over the EOS-1D X? I have no official word on that, but I’d love to hear about it.


Canon EOS-1D C at B&H Photo for $11,999


cr


« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 04:05:12 PM by Canon Rumors »
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Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« on: January 08, 2013, 03:57:07 PM »

Bombsight

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2013, 04:24:16 PM »
Somebody is going to crack that 4k video capability in the 1DX.

.... they say laws are meant to be broken & there are many out there chomping at the bit to do it.

matukas

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2013, 04:47:01 PM »
Indeed. As a proof of concept, one who has resources, will crack it sooner or later. It's always been like this. Other thing is, what to do with this knowledge.

ryebrye

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2013, 04:49:39 PM »
There isn't much of a legal leg to stand on.

The magic-lantern team is very careful to never redistribute Canon-copyrighted binaries or code of any sort, and the kind of reverse engineering that they do is entirely legal.

I think the price of getting a 1D-X for the various developers who are capable of performing such work is probably going to be the biggest barrier to entry, really, than the actual technical work itself.

(And my guess is that they will try to use an even harder level of encryption than they have on their previous firmwares, but they probably wont succeed to well at that)

Daniel Flather

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2013, 05:17:55 PM »
Maybe someone from a certain rental place will buy one and open it up for us to see.   ;)
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Marsu42

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2013, 05:19:24 PM »
I've been discussing in the ml forum and with the ml devs all over, thus the lengthy post:

The magic-lantern team is very careful to never redistribute Canon-copyrighted binaries or code of any sort, and the kind of reverse engineering that they do is entirely legal.

And changing some flags in the 1dx firmware via ml probably wouldn't be illegal either, Canon doesn't make you sign a contract "no 3rd party firmware allowed" when selling the camera. But as it is, even targeting a whole department of lawyers on a single person might have some impact :-o

However, near consensus among the ml devs is to leave the 1dx alone, not just because Canon says so, but also because ...

a) ml is a community project to add new features to entry- to midrange cameras (5d3 being the absolute top of the line) and only there expand upon some firmware limitations (i.e. more than 3x bracketing), ml is not there to save money for rich people - at least that's not why I contributed source code to ml.

b) it would be stupid because Canon just relaxed a bit about ml (in comparison to plain ignorance) and maybe they'll even make life easier for the devs by giving some answers that save months of reverse engineering - but on the other hand Canon can disable the ml loader mechanism on the next cameras or via the next firmware updates, and that would be the end of it. A real possibility is that Canon tries to void all warranties if they detect ml has ever been installed which would cut 2/3 of the userbase just because of fud.

To sum it up: If someone hacks the 1dx to a 1dc, maybe even commercially ("give me half the 1dx/1dc difference and I'll unlock it") it won't be via ml - personally I hope it won't happen at all, people who actually use 4k in 2013 are most probably well off and should just pay for it.

As for Canon ripping 1dx/1dc users off: A dslr is a computer, the firmware is the software, and it absolutely common to deliver the same software with features unlockable for a price (i.e. 4k on the 1dc) even if the hardware (i.e. your computer) is the same. You cannot demand "I want Photoshop Elements for the price of Photoshop Extended" just because your computer can run it. It's a legit business model, even if people might not like it. I do like it because it makes well-off people pay more, now if Canon would just make reasonable prices for the rest of us...
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 05:28:55 PM by Marsu42 »

Daniel Flather

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2013, 05:19:34 PM »
As for Canon ripping 1dx/1dc users off: A dslr is a computer, the firmware is the software, and it absolutely common to deliver the same software with features unlockable for a price (i.e. 4k on the 1dc) even if the hardware (i.e. your computer) is the same. You cannot demand "I want Photoshop Elements for the price of Photoshop Extended" just because your computer can run it...

Yes, price out some of the basic and full featured CAD software packages.  Huge price increase for the full versions.
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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2013, 05:19:34 PM »

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2013, 05:32:34 PM »
Hacking aside, I don't think the 1D C makes sense at it's current price level. It's too close to other entry level pro video camera bodies that (Red, Sony, Panasonic) that offer greater flexibility and control for $15-20k. And a good sale or promotion will wipe out even the slight Canon price advantage.

k1975

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2013, 06:24:57 PM »
Since noise increases with heat, either exposing the camera to heat or after continuous use, does all that heat dissipation design also decrease noise in stills after being used continuously for a long time?

that1guyy

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2013, 06:34:19 PM »
If you're going to spend $12k, spend $3k more for RAW.

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2013, 08:53:58 PM »
If you're going to spend $12k, spend $3k more for RAW.

Or spend spend $2K less for raw:

 $7K for 1Dx + $3K for BMC.

gmrza

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2013, 09:01:00 PM »
Hacking aside, I don't think the 1D C makes sense at it's current price level. It's too close to other entry level pro video camera bodies that (Red, Sony, Panasonic) that offer greater flexibility and control for $15-20k. And a good sale or promotion will wipe out even the slight Canon price advantage.

I think where Canon is targeting the 1DC is at users who would prefer stills and 4K video in a single body, with the ergonomics of a stills camera.  I would hazard a guess that documentary makers would be a major target market, especially where there is a need to travel light.

As far as the price is concerned, this is a "tool of the trade" so the willingness to spend the purchase price has nothing to be with being wealthy, but with the ability for the camera to satisfy a specific business requirement better than other products also available on the market.  If a documentary maker (for instance) can reduce the overall weight or cost of equipment carried, that may satisfy a business requirement.  A weight consideration may even sway a decision in favour of the 1D-C, even if the output quality is inferior to what RED or Sony could deliver, if the logistics of a production are sufficiently simplified or made cheaper.
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coutts

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 09:26:02 PM »
And changing some flags in the 1dx firmware via ml probably wouldn't be illegal either, Canon doesn't make you sign a contract "no 3rd party firmware allowed" when selling the camera. But as it is, even targeting a whole department of lawyers on a single person might have some impact :-o

actually, when you download any canon firmware update you agree to these terms:
Quote from: Canon U.S.A.
You shall not alter, modify, disassemble, decompile or otherwise reverse engineer the Software and you also shall not have any third party to do so.

I hope this announcement will be enough to make people leave us alone about hacking the 1D :)

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2013, 09:26:02 PM »

AG

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 09:32:20 PM »
For me the base problem i can see here is not with the people that are purchasing this camera and their wealth.

It's more to do with the fact that canon has priced this camera at the point it has to not hurt sales of their other products like the 1DX and the C100 (both of which retail for around $7k).

If they reduced the price of the 1DC to say $500 more than the 1DX who honestly would buy the 1DX anymore?
Let alone the C100.
So instead they put it up with the C300 and claim that its double the camera than the 1DX and thats why its double the cost.

I don't understand why Canon cant just put 4K into the 1DX, call it the 1DX Mk2 or 1DX "C" or whatever at the same price point as what the 1DX is now and thats the end of that.

They would create a second "DSLR video Revolution" as they like to call it, and the other manufacturers would have to play catch up again.

Oh well greed/profits always win out in the end.
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gmrza

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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 09:53:29 PM »
For me the base problem i can see here is not with the people that are purchasing this camera and their wealth.

It's more to do with the fact that canon has priced this camera at the point it has to not hurt sales of their other products like the 1DX and the C100 (both of which retail for around $7k).

If they reduced the price of the 1DC to say $500 more than the 1DX who honestly would buy the 1DX anymore?
Let alone the C100.
So instead they put it up with the C300 and claim that its double the camera than the 1DX and thats why its double the cost.

I don't understand why Canon cant just put 4K into the 1DX, call it the 1DX Mk2 or 1DX "C" or whatever at the same price point as what the 1DX is now and thats the end of that.

They would create a second "DSLR video Revolution" as they like to call it, and the other manufacturers would have to play catch up again.

Oh well greed/profits always win out in the end.

Another reason for the price may also be to throttle demand.  Paradoxical as this may sound - if Canon cannot fulfil higher volumes, the solution is to price it at a level which will reduce demand.  There may be an element of this happening, in that Canon is pricing higher to reduce demand until it can streamline production.  It has already been pointed out that this is a small volume camera, so unit production costs will be high.  Manufacturing is a scale game.

Canon also does not have any direct competitors in this space (yet), so it can bide its time and perfect the product before opening the floodgates.

You don't have to like this strategy, but it is an approach Canon could viably take.
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Re: Inside the Canon EOS-1D C
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 09:53:29 PM »