Where are you EOS 70D?

[Marsu42]

I honestly think we'll see new sensors this time around. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the 7DII to be shown

Famous last words :-> ? ... you should do a search for the exact sentence, I remember it being written like this before the 600d & 650d.

[taz]

I dont care about how many pixels it has. Just improve high iso performance and dynamic range and I will buy it

You could get a full frame camera and crop the pictures to achieve that...

Very good comment... does any full frame camera have a swirvel screen?

[jrista]

I believe Canon has similar technology.

well of course canon knows how to do it... it´s not some alien technology. 

they just have to do it.

but seeing all the fanboys being happy with mediocre sensors "it´s the photographer not the camera" .. why should canon hurry?
their "old stuff" is selling well.

no, it makes more sense for the management to maximize todays profit.
and if that backfires in a few years, they will work at other companys.
that is how these things usually work.. make the shareholder happy.. then walk to greener pastures before the cardhouse collapses.
 
but i think canon has a huge userbase and can afford it to be mediocre... for some time.

when i say "mediocre" is speak about sensors.. not cameras.
i still like the handling of canon cameras more.

it´s just that nikon user saw a image quality improvement in 2012... canon user not so much.

It isn't quite that simple. Realize that Sony owns a gagillion patents for sensor technology. Canon isn't just trying to milk their technology for all its worth...although in doing so they are certainly in a better financial position than Sony (who is barely better than junk bond status for their latest debt purchase). Canon has to find ways to do things similar to what Sony's done with Exmor...without violating Sony patents. Canon knows full well their technology is old, aged, and smelling pretty stinky by now.

I believe Canon's blunder is not that they are trying to suck their customers dry on crappy technology...Canon's blunder was not remaining innovative throughout the last five years or so, creating patents in lock-step with Sony. To play catch-up, Canon also has to play dodge-ball...they have to dodge Sony patents while concurrently trying to come up with their own, and with Sony owning so many balls to throw, Canon has a really difficult task on their hands.

[LetTheRightLensIn]

70D goes back to the 6.3fps of 50D (now it is able to be a new feature again), gets the MFA of the 50D back again (to be trumpeted as a new feature improved over the 60D), keeps same or similar sensor as latest Rebel, adds some GPS/WiFi stuff, keeps flip screen of 60D.

7D2 - 7D+5D3 AF,new sensor (one could hope it offers proof they can do exmor-like but who knows),gps/wifi stuff

[Brock]

I believe Canon has similar technology.

well of course canon knows how to do it... it´s not some alien technology. 

they just have to do it.

but seeing all the fanboys being happy with mediocre sensors "it´s the photographer not the camera" .. why should canon hurry?
their "old stuff" is selling well.

no, it makes more sense for the management to maximize todays profit.
and if that backfires in a few years, they will work at other companys.
that is how these things usually work.. make the shareholder happy.. then walk to greener pastures before the cardhouse collapses.
 
but i think canon has a huge userbase and can afford it to be mediocre... for some time.

when i say "mediocre" is speak about sensors.. not cameras.
i still like the handling of canon cameras more.

it´s just that nikon user saw a image quality improvement in 2012... canon user not so much.

It isn't quite that simple. Realize that Sony owns a gagillion patents for sensor technology. Canon isn't just trying to milk their technology for all its worth...although in doing so they are certainly in a better financial position than Sony (who is barely better than junk bond status for their latest debt purchase). Canon has to find ways to do things similar to what Sony's done with Exmor...without violating Sony patents. Canon knows full well their technology is old, aged, and smelling pretty stinky by now.

I believe Canon's blunder is not that they are trying to suck their customers dry on crappy technology...Canon's blunder was not remaining innovative throughout the last five years or so, creating patents in lock-step with Sony. To play catch-up, Canon also has to play dodge-ball...they have to dodge Sony patents while concurrently trying to come up with their own, and with Sony owning so many balls to throw, Canon has a really difficult task on their hands.

Canon has the most patents of any camera company, & is #3 in the world when it comes to patents.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/11/ibm-maintains-top-spot-in-global-patent-rankings-canon-overtake/


Canon invests 10% of their revenue into R&D.

http://www.photographyblog.com/news/canon_registers_record_number_of_patents/


Sony has more invested in fabrication, but that doesn't mean they're doing more R&D or are ahead in patents.

[Sphyn0x]

70D goes back to the 6.3fps of 50D (now it is able to be a new feature again), gets the MFA of the 50D back again (to be trumpeted as a new feature improved over the 60D), keeps same or similar sensor as latest Rebel, adds some GPS/WiFi stuff, keeps flip screen of 60D.

7D2 - 7D+5D3 AF,new sensor (one could hope it offers proof they can do exmor-like but who knows),gps/wifi stuff

If it will be, as you're saying, I'll be happy with 70D. Maybe new sensor..

[tim1970]

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20130124_584693.html


Can any provide a 'better-than-machine-translation' translation of this interview?  I'm struggling to make any sense of the automatic one but unfortunately do not speak japanese!  I'd be really interested to see what was ACTUALLY said.


Cheers!

Here is a better translation I found on another website...


DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…
MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.

DKW: For example, your rival, Sony exceeded some of the limits that had been holding them back last year by asking themselves, “How far can we go?” They pursued the RX Series which is now in the market and delivered the goods, literaly, to their customers. And while Canon cameras will always be known for things like their high image quality, functionality, and great performance, somewhere along the line I get the impression that Canon began behaving as if it were the be-all and end-all in the camera world. The 7D seemed, in a sense, to be Canon’s attempt at showing its sensitivity and desire to go beyond its limits but, Mr. Maeda, do you personally have an interest in pursuing such “extreme” products like your competitors?

MM: Naturally, I want a camera to be something you put in your hand, peer out in the world with, and become happy with. And I absolutely want them to get smaller. I will refrain from commenting on other companies’ products, but speaking of our own, while cameras like the PowerShot S Series are considered small, they are still massive in my mind. We want to change that. And we will continue to pursue improvement in areas like production quality and the overall quality of our products in addition to high image quality.

[kubelik]

thanks for that version of the translation, tim. also, good on the interviewer for being blunt and to the point. I'm a supporter of canon products but I do think they still need to look at themselves with a critical eye and work on continually improving, just like every company should.

[jrista]

It isn't quite that simple. Realize that Sony owns a gagillion patents for sensor technology. Canon isn't just trying to milk their technology for all its worth...although in doing so they are certainly in a better financial position than Sony (who is barely better than junk bond status for their latest debt purchase). Canon has to find ways to do things similar to what Sony's done with Exmor...without violating Sony patents. Canon knows full well their technology is old, aged, and smelling pretty stinky by now.

you realize that canon is in the top 5 for filing patents for years?

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon/newsroom?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e02480508dde

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/01/20/most-innovative-companies-24-7/1823001/

and if if canon would desperately need a patent.. they could license it or exchange patents with sony.

my company does it all the time, sony does it, canon does it.

patents are not the real problem i think.
but to have more circuits, more logic, on a sensor you need a smaller litho process.
and that is canons problem right now.

i predict that in a few years we will see a jump in canons image quality and todays cameras will have the stigma of "that last 500nm generation".

unfortunately that does not help me right now.
i don´t need better high iso performance, i need better DR and better detail rendering.
i do most stuff on a tripod at ISO 100 or with strobes.

for my sports photography (motorbikes) i could need the better AF of the 5D MK3 but it´s not really worth the money for me. i would not use it often enough so i could justify spending the money.
so i keep my 5D MK2 until canon produces a camera that offers a noticeable better image quality.

I did not say patents overall...just image sensor patents. I know Canon is a top patent producer in general, however Canon has a very broad and diverse imaging presence, which involves patents for optics, fabrication, manufacture, and other things in addition to sensor patents. Sony's IC division, particularly their imaging sensor division, has been pounding out R&D and patents in that one area for the last few years. They have spent tens of billions of dollars JUST on image sensor and related IC patents, which is why they are so deeply in debt right now.

To my knowledge, Canon has not patented as much image sensor technology as Sony has in the last several years.

[jrista]

Poked around patentfish for a while. As far as I could tell, counting patents for CMOS image sensors, solid-state imagers, color filter arrays, etc. I counted about 27 patents for Canon, and over 60 for Sony before finally stopping.  I'd say Sony has about three times the image sensor related patents as Canon does since 2009.

[Brock]

It isn't quite that simple. Realize that Sony owns a gagillion patents for sensor technology. Canon isn't just trying to milk their technology for all its worth...although in doing so they are certainly in a better financial position than Sony (who is barely better than junk bond status for their latest debt purchase). Canon has to find ways to do things similar to what Sony's done with Exmor...without violating Sony patents. Canon knows full well their technology is old, aged, and smelling pretty stinky by now.

you realize that canon is in the top 5 for filing patents for years?

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon/newsroom?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e02480508dde

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/01/20/most-innovative-companies-24-7/1823001/

and if if canon would desperately need a patent.. they could license it or exchange patents with sony.

my company does it all the time, sony does it, canon does it.

patents are not the real problem i think.
but to have more circuits, more logic, on a sensor you need a smaller litho process.
and that is canons problem right now.

i predict that in a few years we will see a jump in canons image quality and todays cameras will have the stigma of "that last 500nm generation".

unfortunately that does not help me right now.
i don´t need better high iso performance, i need better DR and better detail rendering.
i do most stuff on a tripod at ISO 100 or with strobes.

for my sports photography (motorbikes) i could need the better AF of the 5D MK3 but it´s not really worth the money for me. i would not use it often enough so i could justify spending the money.
so i keep my 5D MK2 until canon produces a camera that offers a noticeable better image quality.

I did not say patents overall...just image sensor patents. I know Canon is a top patent producer in general, however Canon has a very broad and diverse imaging presence, which involves patents for optics, fabrication, manufacture, and other things in addition to sensor patents. Sony's IC division, particularly their imaging sensor division, has been pounding out R&D and patents in that one area for the last few years. They have spent tens of billions of dollars JUST on image sensor and related IC patents, which is why they are so deeply in debt right now.

To my knowledge, Canon has not patented as much image sensor technology as Sony has in the last several years.

Where did you get that figure that Sony has spent " tens of billions of dollars JUST on image sensor and related IC patents"?

You say that Canon's ranking in patents doesn't matter because they make lenses, scanners & printers as well?

Sony makes TVs, computers, mp3 players, headphones, amplifiers, speakers, projectors, movies, TV shows, video game consoles, video games, financial services companies, a record label, & I think they even have a piece of MGM Resorts/Gaming.  All that combined is was $78.9 billion last year.

Canon just makes cameras, scanners, printers & medical equipment (which is all based on imaging tech).  It's revenue was $45 billion last year.  10% of which went to R&D.ar.  10% of which went to R&D.

Poked around patentfish for a while. As far as I could tell, counting patents for CMOS image sensors, solid-state imagers, color filter arrays, etc. I counted about 27 patents for Canon, and over 60 for Sony before finally stopping.  I'd say Sony has about three times the image sensor related patents as Canon does since 2009.

Canon has about 2,500 patents a year.  If you found 27 relating to their primary part for their main division, I'm inclined to believe that's not an accurate assessment.   27 out of some 10,000 doesn't seem very realistic.

[jrista]

Well, sorry...Sony has spent billions on their image sensor division. They have built a couple of fabs over the last number of years, which clock in at a couple billion a piece. They have also spent billions designing, prototyping, and and otherwise researching CMOS devices, image sensors, high density screens (like those in their mirrorless cameras), etc. Sony at large is somewhere around 60 billion in debt, and a fairly significant fraction of that has to do with just their CMOS unit related to image sensors and cameras. I did not actually mean to say they literally spent tens of billions just on the R&D for the patents themselves...the patents are just a natural byproduct of all the rest.

Canon has about 2,500 patents a year.  If you found 27 relating to their primary part for their main division, I'm inclined to believe that's not an accurate assessment.   27 out of some 10,000 doesn't seem very realistic.

Same could really be said about Sony. As you stated, Sony also has oodles of other business units, and they file thousands of patents a year as well. Be it 27 or 60, neither really makes up a significant fraction of the total number of patents filed. However, using PatentFish, each of my searches only seemed to result in at most 64 results each. Out of three or four searches of 64 each, that is only around 200 patents total that I found in my PatentFish searches. In which case, 27 and 60 are much more meaningful percentages. Either PatentFish simply has a limit on searches, capping them at 64, or they just don't track all 2000 or so patents filed each year by these companies. Either way...in context, I don't think my numbers are all that bad.

It should be noted that Canon has a LOT of patents related to medical devices, particularly optics or IC devices that support their medical imaging devices. I'd say the majority of the patents I found were medical or memory related. Canon also has quite a lot of patents related to their printer division, particularly print heads. I'd have to say I saw around 18-20 patents for printer related stuff, the majority of which were print head patents. There were also a few semiconductor fab patents scattered here and there from both companies.

I should note that I was explicitly looking for patents that dealt directly with CMOS Image Sensors for use in digital cameras. Not just DSLRs, but digital cameras in general, of all forms. Yes, everything Canon does is imaging related, but the number of patents that I could find that dealt directly with CIS was lower than what I could find for Sony. It seemed Canon had a few patents per page dealing directly with CIS. It seemed in most cases almost all of the patents on each page for Sony dealt directly with CIS, and on more fronts than Canon (particularly on the small form factor front...small sensors for phones, tablets, small cameras, etc. as well as image sensor and image processor packaging, interlink, etc.) Both companies also had quite a number of CIS patents that seemed to be nearly identical...high efficiency CFA designs, High-k gates, strained silicon processes for use in CIS, parallel sensor readout and amplification, block readout and amplification, analog noise reduction in similar forms, etc.

[Canon-F1]

as much as you waste your time defending your guesses... scattering some buzzwords without really saying something ... you are still wrong jrista and the time will show it.

anyway... today it´s not the time to invest in bodys in my opinion.

i rather buy a 2200 euro 24-70mm II lens instead of a new canon body.
because new canon lenses do show significant improvements.

[Marsu42]

i rather buy a 2200 euro 24-70mm II lens instead of a new canon body.
because new canon lenses do show significant improvements.

Unfortunately part of these improvements like enhanced af precision only show in combination with the newer and most expensive canon bodies like 1dx/5d3 ... that's why I'm still not decided if it's wise to buy a 24-70ii for the 6d if the Tamron with IS is half the price :-o

[jrista]

as much as you waste your time defending your guesses... scattering some buzzwords without really saying something ... you are still wrong jrista and the time will show it.

anyway... today it´s not the time to invest in bodys in my opinion.

i rather buy a 2200 euro 24-70mm II lens instead of a new canon body.
because new canon lenses do show significant improvements.

Wrong about what? That Sony is ahead of the curve when it comes to image sensor technology? I think that is and has been a thoroughly established fact for some time now.

Does Canon have something up their sleeve? Sure, they have something up their sleeve. Is it as good or better than Sony Exmor, and will it show up in the next major camera released? My opinion is that they do not have something better than Exmor, and even if they have something better than they (Canon) have now (which I know they do, as Chipworks recently showed some images of a Canon 180nm Cu process with lightpipes), unless Canon has found a way to implement their own version of CP-ADC with digital NR that by some fluke does not actually violate Sony's patent, it is doubtful that they will achieve the near-noiseless readout that Exmor has.

I would also like to point out that I am not the only one who believes Sony is way ahead of the curve when it comes to image sensor technology. Roger from LensRentals wrote an article on the subject in the not too distant past:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/is-sony-going-to-be-the-digital-kodak