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Author Topic: Where are you EOS 70D?  (Read 28040 times)

jrista

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2013, 03:35:47 PM »

It isn't quite that simple. Realize that Sony owns a gagillion patents for sensor technology. Canon isn't just trying to milk their technology for all its worth...although in doing so they are certainly in a better financial position than Sony (who is barely better than junk bond status for their latest debt purchase). Canon has to find ways to do things similar to what Sony's done with Exmor...without violating Sony patents. Canon knows full well their technology is old, aged, and smelling pretty stinky by now.

you realize that canon is in the top 5 for filing patents for years?

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon/newsroom?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e02480508dde

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/01/20/most-innovative-companies-24-7/1823001/

and if if canon would desperately need a patent.. they could license it or exchange patents with sony.

my company does it all the time, sony does it, canon does it.

patents are not the real problem i think.
but to have more circuits, more logic, on a sensor you need a smaller litho process.
and that is canons problem right now.

i predict that in a few years we will see a jump in canons image quality and todays cameras will have the stigma of "that last 500nm generation".

unfortunately that does not help me right now.
i don´t need better high iso performance, i need better DR and better detail rendering.
i do most stuff on a tripod at ISO 100 or with strobes.

for my sports photography (motorbikes) i could need the better AF of the 5D MK3 but it´s not really worth the money for me. i would not use it often enough so i could justify spending the money.
so i keep my 5D MK2 until canon produces a camera that offers a noticeable better image quality.

I did not say patents overall...just image sensor patents. I know Canon is a top patent producer in general, however Canon has a very broad and diverse imaging presence, which involves patents for optics, fabrication, manufacture, and other things in addition to sensor patents. Sony's IC division, particularly their imaging sensor division, has been pounding out R&D and patents in that one area for the last few years. They have spent tens of billions of dollars JUST on image sensor and related IC patents, which is why they are so deeply in debt right now.

To my knowledge, Canon has not patented as much image sensor technology as Sony has in the last several years.

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2013, 03:35:47 PM »

jrista

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2013, 05:09:22 PM »
Poked around patentfish for a while. As far as I could tell, counting patents for CMOS image sensors, solid-state imagers, color filter arrays, etc. I counted about 27 patents for Canon, and over 60 for Sony before finally stopping.  I'd say Sony has about three times the image sensor related patents as Canon does since 2009.

Brock

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2013, 11:48:07 PM »

It isn't quite that simple. Realize that Sony owns a gagillion patents for sensor technology. Canon isn't just trying to milk their technology for all its worth...although in doing so they are certainly in a better financial position than Sony (who is barely better than junk bond status for their latest debt purchase). Canon has to find ways to do things similar to what Sony's done with Exmor...without violating Sony patents. Canon knows full well their technology is old, aged, and smelling pretty stinky by now.

you realize that canon is in the top 5 for filing patents for years?

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/about_canon/newsroom?pageKeyCode=pressreldetail&docId=0901e02480508dde

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/01/20/most-innovative-companies-24-7/1823001/

and if if canon would desperately need a patent.. they could license it or exchange patents with sony.

my company does it all the time, sony does it, canon does it.

patents are not the real problem i think.
but to have more circuits, more logic, on a sensor you need a smaller litho process.
and that is canons problem right now.

i predict that in a few years we will see a jump in canons image quality and todays cameras will have the stigma of "that last 500nm generation".

unfortunately that does not help me right now.
i don´t need better high iso performance, i need better DR and better detail rendering.
i do most stuff on a tripod at ISO 100 or with strobes.

for my sports photography (motorbikes) i could need the better AF of the 5D MK3 but it´s not really worth the money for me. i would not use it often enough so i could justify spending the money.
so i keep my 5D MK2 until canon produces a camera that offers a noticeable better image quality.

I did not say patents overall...just image sensor patents. I know Canon is a top patent producer in general, however Canon has a very broad and diverse imaging presence, which involves patents for optics, fabrication, manufacture, and other things in addition to sensor patents. Sony's IC division, particularly their imaging sensor division, has been pounding out R&D and patents in that one area for the last few years. They have spent tens of billions of dollars JUST on image sensor and related IC patents, which is why they are so deeply in debt right now.

To my knowledge, Canon has not patented as much image sensor technology as Sony has in the last several years.
Where did you get that figure that Sony has spent " tens of billions of dollars JUST on image sensor and related IC patents"?

You say that Canon's ranking in patents doesn't matter because they make lenses, scanners & printers as well?

Sony makes TVs, computers, mp3 players, headphones, amplifiers, speakers, projectors, movies, TV shows, video game consoles, video games, financial services companies, a record label, & I think they even have a piece of MGM Resorts/Gaming.  All that combined is was $78.9 billion last year.

Canon just makes cameras, scanners, printers & medical equipment (which is all based on imaging tech).  It's revenue was $45 billion last year.  10% of which went to R&D.ar.  10% of which went to R&D.


Poked around patentfish for a while. As far as I could tell, counting patents for CMOS image sensors, solid-state imagers, color filter arrays, etc. I counted about 27 patents for Canon, and over 60 for Sony before finally stopping.  I'd say Sony has about three times the image sensor related patents as Canon does since 2009.

Canon has about 2,500 patents a year.  If you found 27 relating to their primary part for their main division, I'm inclined to believe that's not an accurate assessment.   27 out of some 10,000 doesn't seem very realistic.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 12:10:19 AM by Brock »

jrista

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2013, 02:33:14 AM »
Well, sorry...Sony has spent billions on their image sensor division. They have built a couple of fabs over the last number of years, which clock in at a couple billion a piece. They have also spent billions designing, prototyping, and and otherwise researching CMOS devices, image sensors, high density screens (like those in their mirrorless cameras), etc. Sony at large is somewhere around 60 billion in debt, and a fairly significant fraction of that has to do with just their CMOS unit related to image sensors and cameras. I did not actually mean to say they literally spent tens of billions just on the R&D for the patents themselves...the patents are just a natural byproduct of all the rest.

Canon has about 2,500 patents a year.  If you found 27 relating to their primary part for their main division, I'm inclined to believe that's not an accurate assessment.   27 out of some 10,000 doesn't seem very realistic.

Same could really be said about Sony. As you stated, Sony also has oodles of other business units, and they file thousands of patents a year as well. Be it 27 or 60, neither really makes up a significant fraction of the total number of patents filed. However, using PatentFish, each of my searches only seemed to result in at most 64 results each. Out of three or four searches of 64 each, that is only around 200 patents total that I found in my PatentFish searches. In which case, 27 and 60 are much more meaningful percentages. Either PatentFish simply has a limit on searches, capping them at 64, or they just don't track all 2000 or so patents filed each year by these companies. Either way...in context, I don't think my numbers are all that bad.

It should be noted that Canon has a LOT of patents related to medical devices, particularly optics or IC devices that support their medical imaging devices. I'd say the majority of the patents I found were medical or memory related. Canon also has quite a lot of patents related to their printer division, particularly print heads. I'd have to say I saw around 18-20 patents for printer related stuff, the majority of which were print head patents. There were also a few semiconductor fab patents scattered here and there from both companies.

I should note that I was explicitly looking for patents that dealt directly with CMOS Image Sensors for use in digital cameras. Not just DSLRs, but digital cameras in general, of all forms. Yes, everything Canon does is imaging related, but the number of patents that I could find that dealt directly with CIS was lower than what I could find for Sony. It seemed Canon had a few patents per page dealing directly with CIS. It seemed in most cases almost all of the patents on each page for Sony dealt directly with CIS, and on more fronts than Canon (particularly on the small form factor front...small sensors for phones, tablets, small cameras, etc. as well as image sensor and image processor packaging, interlink, etc.) Both companies also had quite a number of CIS patents that seemed to be nearly identical...high efficiency CFA designs, High-k gates, strained silicon processes for use in CIS, parallel sensor readout and amplification, block readout and amplification, analog noise reduction in similar forms, etc.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 02:49:14 AM by jrista »

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #64 on: January 26, 2013, 04:34:09 AM »
as much as you waste your time defending your guesses... scattering some buzzwords without really saying something ... you are still wrong jrista and the time will show it.

anyway... today it´s not the time to invest in bodys in my opinion.

i rather buy a 2200 euro 24-70mm II lens instead of a new canon body.
because new canon lenses do show significant improvements.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 04:36:15 AM by Canon-F1 »

Marsu42

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2013, 04:40:19 AM »
i rather buy a 2200 euro 24-70mm II lens instead of a new canon body.
because new canon lenses do show significant improvements.

Unfortunately part of these improvements like enhanced af precision only show in combination with the newer and most expensive canon bodies like 1dx/5d3 ... that's why I'm still not decided if it's wise to buy a 24-70ii for the 6d if the Tamron with IS is half the price :-o

jrista

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2013, 11:35:44 AM »
as much as you waste your time defending your guesses... scattering some buzzwords without really saying something ... you are still wrong jrista and the time will show it.

anyway... today it´s not the time to invest in bodys in my opinion.

i rather buy a 2200 euro 24-70mm II lens instead of a new canon body.
because new canon lenses do show significant improvements.

Wrong about what? That Sony is ahead of the curve when it comes to image sensor technology? I think that is and has been a thoroughly established fact for some time now.

Does Canon have something up their sleeve? Sure, they have something up their sleeve. Is it as good or better than Sony Exmor, and will it show up in the next major camera released? My opinion is that they do not have something better than Exmor, and even if they have something better than they (Canon) have now (which I know they do, as Chipworks recently showed some images of a Canon 180nm Cu process with lightpipes), unless Canon has found a way to implement their own version of CP-ADC with digital NR that by some fluke does not actually violate Sony's patent, it is doubtful that they will achieve the near-noiseless readout that Exmor has.

I would also like to point out that I am not the only one who believes Sony is way ahead of the curve when it comes to image sensor technology. Roger from LensRentals wrote an article on the subject in the not too distant past:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/is-sony-going-to-be-the-digital-kodak
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 11:45:18 AM by jrista »

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2013, 11:35:44 AM »

MintMark

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2013, 11:57:53 AM »
I dont care about how many pixels it has. Just improve high iso performance and dynamic range and I will buy it :)

You could get a full frame camera and crop the pictures to achieve that...

Very good comment... does any full frame camera have a swirvel screen?

Well, there's a 6D and a smartphone running EOS remote... but it's unwieldy if you're holding both of them.

preppyak

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2013, 08:53:41 PM »
Well, there's a 6D and a smartphone running EOS remote... but it's unwieldy if you're holding both of them.
Yeah...not to mention you lose the 1000-shot battery life advantage of having a DSLR.

Marsu42

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2013, 02:55:34 AM »
Well, there's a 6D and a smartphone running EOS remote... but it's unwieldy if you're holding both of them.
Yeah...not to mention you lose the 1000-shot battery life advantage of having a DSLR.

Imho it's a disgrace Canon cut the swivel screen from the 6d, I doubt there is any other reason than to protect the 5d3 - after all, a swivel screen is very nice for video and that's supposed to be the 5d3's strength. Of course wifi isn't a real replacement.

Yesterday I shot macro near the ground in the snow, I couldn't have done that with the 6d - I'm happy to lie flat in the mud to get good shots, but not in the freezing snow for an extended time :-(

Pitbullo

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2013, 03:18:05 AM »

Imho it's a disgrace Canon cut the swivel screen from the 6d, I doubt there is any other reason than to protect the 5d3 - after all, a swivel screen is very nice for video and that's supposed to be the 5d3's strength. Of course wifi isn't a real replacement.

Yesterday I shot macro near the ground in the snow, I couldn't have done that with the 6d - I'm happy to lie flat in the mud to get good shots, but not in the freezing snow for an extended time :-(

The 5D3 does not have an articulated screen. 60D does.

Marsu42

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2013, 03:27:03 AM »
The 5D3 does not have an articulated screen. 60D does.

That's correct, I've got a 60d (see my equipment list).

What I tried to convey was that because even the video-king 5d3 hasn't got a swivel screen Canon didn't want to add it on the 60d-like 6d - because the 6d is obviously designed to have lower specs in any area save the center af light sensitivity as the "joker" against the Nikon 600d.

Pitbullo

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2013, 03:44:29 AM »
Ahh. You are right!

It is kind of annoying when accounts are telling engineers what they can and can not do. As I stated in another thread, the 6D is not for me (even though I might end up with one in a year or two due to $$, only a hobbyist here...). So, why dont I like the 6D, even though it probably is a great camera! Because it is not as good as it could be. I dont even think the 5D3 is as good as it could be. It is specced to fit a place in the marked, and priced to make the absolute most money. Perhaps the dSLR segment need more competition, as there are only two real competitors, Canon and Nikon.

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2013, 03:44:29 AM »

J.R.

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2013, 05:37:27 AM »
The 5D3 does not have an articulated screen. 60D does.

That's correct, I've got a 60d (see my equipment list).

What I tried to convey was that because even the video-king 5d3 hasn't got a swivel screen Canon didn't want to add it on the 60d-like 6d - because the 6d is obviously designed to have lower specs in any area save the center af light sensitivity as the "joker" against the Nikon 600d.

Canon and Nikon have held out against putting in an articulated LCD on their pro-level cameras on the ground that "Pro's don't want articulating screens". I chanced to read this here ...

http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/nikon-pros-dont-want-articulating-screens-1062390

I wonder what Pro's Canon and Nikon talk to ... maybe it is really not required. I guess we would know more if some Pro's put in their comments on this.

On an aside though, does the articulated screen impact the weather-sealing in any way? If not, then why do the companies not put them in the pro level cameras also? It's not like you have to use the articulated screen if it is available.
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Marsu42

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2013, 05:50:08 AM »
Canon and Nikon have held out against putting in an articulated LCD on their pro-level cameras on the ground that "Pro's don't want articulating screens".

I'm not a pro, but I guess pros either seldom do macro or often have dedicated video cameras with swivel screen - so that would leave event/sports/portrait, all of those don't require the swivel screen.

One factor might be that pros are more conservative - a good idea if the equipment should "just work" - and thus a major change on the camera body is always received with skepticism.

On an aside though, does the articulated screen impact the weather-sealing in any way?

I've read about this theory, but I really doubt this would be a serious issue if they were determined to do it - though in the 60d/600d-style cameras it probably wasn't the first priority.

It's not like you have to use the articulated screen if it is available.

... exactly, but it's a great lcd protection if traveling or lugging the camera around.

The one ridiculous (imho) argument I've read is that your screen can break off if flipped out and you drop the camera or the like - but I doubt this is a real world issue and you can wreck any camera if your're set on it.

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Re: Where are you EOS 70D?
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2013, 05:50:08 AM »