December 22, 2014, 04:20:20 AM

Author Topic: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]  (Read 45256 times)

Quasimodo

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 963
  • Easily intrigued :)
    • View Profile
    • 500px.com
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #165 on: January 28, 2013, 05:21:55 PM »
Lots of discussions on if APS-H is really dead, or has an opening to return...

I always wonder about this because didn't Canon put an H marking on their new fish-eye zoom? Kinda odd to add for just one discontinued camera isn't it?

Interesting point, as the 8-15 is from 2011, i.e. quite new and a while after the release of the 1D iv... Hmmm... However, there is virtually no mention of a whift of a rumor concerning the release of a APS-H sensor, at least not that I have seen.
1Dx, 5x600 EX RT, ST-E3Canon:16-35L II,  24-105L , 70-200L IS II, 135L, 100L, 2x III TC, EF 25II, 40 F2.8 STM, Sigma 35 F1.4 Art, Sigma 50 F1.4 Art, Sigma 85 F1.4, Sigma 150-500.
Canon A-1, 199A, FD: 24/2.8, 35/2.0, 100/2.8, Vivitar 400/5.6 Mamiya RZ67 pro ii, 50,110,180
www.500px.com/gerhard1972

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #165 on: January 28, 2013, 05:21:55 PM »

RS2021

  • 5D Mark III
  • ******
  • Posts: 720
    • View Profile
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #166 on: January 28, 2013, 06:55:26 PM »
For those of you wishing for the return of APS-H in the 7D2:

APS-H was a stop-gap.

Remember the "frankenmonster" FD autofocus lens that Canon made before the arrival of EF bodies? See pic below. That was a stop-gap.

Just the same, APS-H was a stop-gap... till full frame sensors became more affordable. Now that FF has acheived more market penetration and come down in price since early years, the stop-gap will die.

So let's move on.
APS-H is dead.
Dead, dead, dead.



“Sharpness is a bourgeois concept” - Henri Cartier-Bresson

wickidwombat

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 4577
    • View Profile
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #167 on: January 28, 2013, 07:00:01 PM »
Lots of discussions on if APS-H is really dead, or has an opening to return...

Why would Canon do that - it's loose-loose for them, they'd sell less expensive tele lenes for the well-off people while loosing ef-s compatibility and alienating the 7d crowd who bought a 17-55 or 10-22 lens.

The only reason for Canon would be if the competition went ahead and many Canon users would consider switching, but in Nikon-land it's also either 1.5x crop or ff.

because no competition have anything like APS-H, the image quality drop vs full frame is minimal unlike the wonderfull APS-C.

I really believe canon missed an opportunity to storm the mirrorless market, they should have made the EOS M APS-H and the EF-M mount APS-H with a crop mode for use of EF-S lenses.
Instead the horse took off last and is still running the wrong direction!

Basically anything APS-C can do APS-H can do better apply any tech increase to both formats and APS-H will win hands down all the time the marginal additional crop factor of APS-C is not enough to counter the significant benefits of the larger format. And same goes FF is better than both although the gap between FF and APS-H is not as vast as to APS-C

I believe the 7DII will still be APS-C but I think it would be awesome if they made it APS-H with an APS-C crop mode that came with an increase FPS say 6 FPS APS-H and 9 FPS APS-C crop mode then people wont cry about not being able to use the EF-S lenses. If it used a digic 5+ like the 5Dmk3 and had say a 22MP APS-H sensor it would give about a 13MP APS-C image in crop mode with 5Dmk3 build quality. forget the gimmicks like flippy screens, wifi and gps leave all that for the other models, and of course dual card slots and a revamped AF system.

something like this would be a perfect complement to my 5Dmk3

However what is concernng by canons own naming convention the 7D2 sits behind the 6D... and since the 6D is somewhat underwhelming in everything other than the sensor department I am afraid the 7D2 will be another dropped ball.
APS-H Fanboy

garyknrd

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 166
  • Birding
    • View Profile
    • Bird photography
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #168 on: January 28, 2013, 09:03:13 PM »
For those of you wishing for the return of APS-H in the 7D2:

APS-H was a stop-gap.

Remember the "frankenmonster" FD autofocus lens that Canon made before the arrival of EF bodies? See pic below. That was a stop-gap.

Just the same, APS-H was a stop-gap... till full frame sensors became more affordable. Now that FF has acheived more market penetration and come down in price since early years, the stop-gap will die.

So let's move on.
APS-H is dead.
Dead, dead, dead.

What you talking about Willis....  :(
Live between Thailand and Texas, USA

rpt

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • ********
  • Posts: 2288
    • View Profile
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #169 on: January 28, 2013, 09:29:58 PM »
For those of you wishing for the return of APS-H in the 7D2:

APS-H was a stop-gap.

Remember the "frankenmonster" FD autofocus lens that Canon made before the arrival of EF bodies? See pic below. That was a stop-gap.

Just the same, APS-H was a stop-gap... till full frame sensors became more affordable. Now that FF has acheived more market penetration and come down in price since early years, the stop-gap will die.

So let's move on.
APS-H is dead.
Dead, dead, dead.

What you talking about Willis....  :(
Wow! Somebody other than me using that line! Way to go!
Well, that said, the facial expression needs to made with that line for the full impact...
 :

gravy

  • Guest
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #170 on: January 28, 2013, 09:34:03 PM »
They need to consolidate 60d and 7d. 70d 20mp 10 fps dual digic dual sd or qd/sd. 38 focus pt 19 cross center dual cross 51k Iso. only 5.6 af to keep selling superteles to those big spenders. Then bring on the 7dii with apsh and near 1 series spec priced above 6d. Everyone happy!

wickidwombat

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 4577
    • View Profile
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #171 on: January 28, 2013, 09:42:44 PM »
They need to consolidate 60d and 7d. 70d 20mp 10 fps dual digic dual sd or qd/sd. 38 focus pt 19 cross center dual cross 51k Iso. only 5.6 af to keep selling superteles to those big spenders. Then bring on the 7dii with apsh and near 1 series spec priced above 6d. Everyone happy!

last time i suggested that I got clubbed like a baby seal by the crop club... :o
APS-H Fanboy

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #171 on: January 28, 2013, 09:42:44 PM »

ahsanford

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1069
    • View Profile
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #172 on: January 28, 2013, 09:54:37 PM »
As for what sensor tech:

Option 1: Canon may use the same sensor in the 7D2 as in the anticipated full frame high MP sensor (somewhere in the ~36 to 45 MP range, adjusted to APS-C size).  If true, this would likely auger a higher price for 7D2 as they can't low ball the price too much in this scenario.

Option 2: Alternatively, they may just use older sensor tech but with all the bells and whistles including superior AF system, build, wifi, gps, multiple card slots etc... or some combo of that. Using the existing sensor tech would probably help keep the price down a bit.

Given 7D branding under 6D, Canon may use the older sensor tech and use the price savings on more updated features and still debut 7D2 around the same price as intro 6D.

First option is more daring, second one is more safe as they have to keep pricing in mind.

Difficult to say which way Canon will go.


I think most of us on this forum would bet large sums of money that the 7D2 will have a brand spanking new APS-C sensor.  Option 2 would absolutely blow my mind if it happened, esp. considering that the 7D AF is fairly well regarded for its place in the big SLR food chain.

(In hindsight, Option 2 would have been an killer mid-lifecycle upgrade to the 5D2.  Imagine a better AF system dropped into the 5D2 in mid-2010.  I think it would have been a hit -- call it a 5D(2.5).)

Canon may nerf (or, as some have said 'cripple') the 7D2 in some aspect, but as the flagship APS-C offering, they can't keep recycling that 18 MP sensor any longer.  Isn't that the same kind of sensor quality as the EOS-M and T4i / 650D?

I just don't see that happening.  My guess is new APS-C and more pixels.  24 MP is the APS-C top of the line for resolution right now, right?  Isn't that what Sony and Nikon are offering now?  Seems a reasonable number to start with. 

- A


ahsanford

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1069
    • View Profile
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #173 on: January 28, 2013, 10:00:27 PM »
LOL. and to Ahsanford. I never intended to say that it will be in a APS-H size.. I do not believe that. I believe that we just might see a killer 7D which will de facto make the demand for the APS-H non-existant..?

Understood -- apologies, I misread you.

I guess I never really saw the 7D as a threat to the 1D4 users.  Ferrari owners would generally not get jealous of a Camaro, even if it is shinier, newer, etc.   ;)  (just making a point, pls don't start a car flame war)

I just see the 1DX ending any and all sports/action complaints for... at least a little while.

- A
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 10:09:40 PM by ahsanford »

gravy

  • Guest
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #174 on: January 28, 2013, 10:03:34 PM »
They need to consolidate 60d and 7d. 70d 20mp 10 fps dual digic dual sd or qd/sd. 38 focus pt 19 cross center dual cross 51k Iso. only 5.6 af to keep selling superteles to those big spenders. Then bring on the 7dii with apsh and near 1 series spec priced above 6d. Everyone happy!

last time i suggested that I got clubbed like a baby seal by the crop club... :o

maybe this time they wake up and smell the 70D and won't be so hostile.

V8Beast

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1049
    • View Profile
    • Stephen Kim Automotive Photography
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #175 on: January 28, 2013, 10:14:30 PM »
If APS-H is dead, them I'm a proud necrophiliac ;D

ahsanford

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1069
    • View Profile
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #176 on: January 28, 2013, 10:50:10 PM »
If APS-H is dead, them I'm a proud necrophiliac ;D

Well, I guess that makes you 1.3x bigger than the rest of the necros out there.

(Had to.)

- A

Brock

  • Power Shot G7X
  • **
  • Posts: 15
    • View Profile
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #177 on: January 28, 2013, 10:53:04 PM »
They need to consolidate 60d and 7d. 70d 20mp 10 fps dual digic dual sd or qd/sd. 38 focus pt 19 cross center dual cross 51k Iso. only 5.6 af to keep selling superteles to those big spenders. Then bring on the 7dii with apsh and near 1 series spec priced above 6d. Everyone happy!

I don't think that would be a good idea.  There's a big price gap between them.

Many people buy the X0D model because the grip on the Rebels are too small & don't want/care about long photo bursts or full weather sealing.

If Canon doesn't have the X0D, then people will migrate to the Nikon D7x00, because it will fulfill their needs for less $$$.


I think Canon might increase the 7D II's price (like they did the 5D Mark III) because It is a pro camera.

But I don't think their Rebel & X0D will change much in price, because they compete in a very price sensitive market against Nikon (who could be considered to have the better cameras in that segment currently, especially if the D7000 successor comes out soon).

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #177 on: January 28, 2013, 10:53:04 PM »

dave

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 128
    • View Profile
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #178 on: January 28, 2013, 10:56:20 PM »
I am pretty sure the term 'roadmap' is not strictly speaking semantically spot on and has created a confusing thread, which I have conveniently summarised thus:

In all reality Canon is following what might be termed the 'mapless, whimsical camera and lens development path', which would be great except the lanterns lighting their way are all powered by nasty third party and counterfeit batteries so they keep going out. On the rare occasion when their lanterns do work the dynamic range of the product developers is such that they immediately become blinded and any logical thoughts (i.e. the 'actual' roadmap) are immediately blown out (sorry).

Subsequently this has the net effect of leaving them (Canon) absolutely bereft when it comes to find the right proverbial tails (7D2, 14-24) to pin on their donkeys (us). The problem is by the time they finally have the tails the donkeys might have all run away (to Nikon, Sony or Kodak).

See! Not roadmap...narrative.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 11:19:35 PM by dave »

fonts

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #179 on: January 29, 2013, 12:01:44 AM »
They need to consolidate 60d and 7d. 70d 20mp 10 fps dual digic dual sd or qd/sd. 38 focus pt 19 cross center dual cross 51k Iso. only 5.6 af to keep selling superteles to those big spenders. Then bring on the 7dii with apsh and near 1 series spec priced above 6d. Everyone happy!

I don't think that would be a good idea.  There's a big price gap between them.

Many people buy the X0D model because the grip on the Rebels are too small & don't want/care about long photo bursts or full weather sealing.

If Canon doesn't have the X0D, then people will migrate to the Nikon D7x00, because it will fulfill their needs for less $$$.


I think Canon might increase the 7D II's price (like they did the 5D Mark III) because It is a pro camera.

But I don't think their Rebel & X0D will change much in price, because they compete in a very price sensitive market against Nikon (who could be considered to have the better cameras in that segment currently, especially if the D7000 successor comes out soon).
 
    I think opposite. Think of it like this (there's also a recent thread with this view) - If Canon stopped milking, and started Under Promise - Over Deliver they would DOMINATE the market. It is NOT a good thing when people can't tell the difference between Nikon or Canon...It means no one is revolutionizing. No one is going out of there way to make and BREAK expectations.

   If they kept the Rebel line (which is always increasing in price for some reason....) took out the X0D line. That would be all they need to start taking over when it comes to first buyers.

   They also need to start standardizing their sensors, AF, etc. Start BRANDING the company's name. Stop making spin offs of "that" sensor/AF/etc. and start making it throughout the lineup. It wastes people's time, and R&D money when they come out with a different versions to sidetrack the product.

  Basically what I'm trying to get at is this.

  4 camera Line Up:
          Rebel
          5D/6D Equiv
          7D Equiv
          1D Equiv


That might be hard to grasp because then you get into pricing confusion. That mainly will come because of how APS-C and FF are at the moment. The rebel will have APS-C to keep price down for sure. Then Everything else should have FF, because by now they should already have been able to figure out how to only use the center to give the reach of crop by now (I mean seriously).

People are probably wondering than how will they be different if they all have the same sensor and AF.

 3 main areas:
   1 - CPU power & efficiency + buffer
   2 - Shutter Speed
   3 - MP

So as you go up the line Rebel - 7D equiv - 5/6D equiv - 1D equiv then all three areas will get better. At this point people will ask well I don't want 50000000000+ MP because noise will increase and buffer speed will decrease....well honestly this isn't how you should be looking at it. Instead ask why hasn't there been any push to technology so that as MP increases noise and buffer doesn't get worse. Seriously the price for these equipments as much and even MORE than the best computer you can build out there.

  Pricing - This is difficult, but if either Canon or Nikon started this revolutionary way of business than they can ultimately (well somewhat as consumers are the ones that determine the price) price it to whatever they want. But let's just give reasonable prices.

  The Rebel needs to be able to have an easy point of entrance. Right now the current T4i sells for about $800 (way overpriced for what you get, that's why people still buy the T3i over it) so I say for something that will actually be VERY good and revolutionary than at most $800 for it would be better for that camera.  7D equiv $1400; 5/6D equiv $2600; 1D equiv $6000

   The pricing section isn't what I'm trying to get at, just giving numbers because I know people will ask.

Now when it comes to system updates (ie Mark ii) then things will make A LOT more sense since most of the technology is shared in the lineup. So as they improve on sensors and AF (and not incremental, but actual improvements) then all they have to do is refresh the lineup.


This will make Canon the best ever, period. Customers will know that this company won't chimp off and let them down, Canon will stop wasting money of random incremental and sidetracked R&D and FOCUS on actual "Evolution & Revlotion" products. There will be a clear difference of what you would get with Canon vs another brand.

Thanks,
Jonathan Liz-Fonts
   

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« Reply #179 on: January 29, 2013, 12:01:44 AM »