Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF

[ecka]

Personally, Canon...if you are listening....Keep semi-pro APS-C.  I'll buy a high quality 7DII as soon as it is available for pre-order.

Even if it's just the same old 7D with built-in GPS, WiFi, new CPU and extra SD slot?

[LewisShermer]

What's everyones beef with FF? the only reason I had crop sensors was because I couldn't afford FF, but then I saved some money, sold all my crop sensor stuff (7D/60D/EF-s Lenses) and bought a FF set up which is loads better in terms of IQ and cropping to get the best out of lenses like a 50mm, 85mm & 100mm. You will obviously have to invest in wide to mid-range zoom (24-105 which is kit anyway) and a longer lens reaching to 400mm if you still want the "reach" of a crop sensor (which is a total facade anyway) or you could maybe get a metre or 2 closer to the subject.

the only thing that you're giving up is the FPS of the 7D... which you're not anyway as you still have all your 7D's. canon will not make the decision to stop all crop sensors and then come round to your house and smash all your 7D's so you have to buy new FF cameras. They've served you well this far, the only issue is that they're not going to get much improvements so just keep them as at low ISO they're very good cameras.

In a couple of years the 5Diii and 1Dx will be antiquated technology and the standard for pro/semi-pro DSLR will be 46mp and ISO at 999999999999999 has zero noise so wait for a little while and get the 1Dx at a much lower price when the standard of the 22mp FF sensor IQ of that becomes deplorable...

[Marsu42]

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0336328811/cp-2013-interview-with-canons-masaya-maeda

That's really interesting - and if only because it says I was correct all the way along predicting the semipro-crop segment being sandwiched between pressure from below (better Rebels and competition) and above (more future potential in ff than in the nearly maxed out aps-c) ;->

And also interesting to see one of the guys responsible for Canon's strategy - I can imagine him supporting what dpreview.com calls the "conservative, slightly unimaginative design that's become the company's hallmark"

Last not least with the upcoming new ff models he imho more or less confirms that even Canon figures that the expensive 5d3 and the feature-reduced "5d mk2 mk2" = 6d is not for everyone...

[MintMark]

There is no reason not to have FF cameras except production cost. that will be solved in the future and hopefully all cameras will be FF. Tough i guess APS-C will still always be around. I mean "back in the days" everybody was fine with 35mm film also 

A good step Canon Just get 1.4TC for reach...

flawed logic.. you will always have more reach with a crop and a 1.4 TC.

and FF will always be more expensive to produce then APS-C, if the price difference matters is a different question.
but a FF sensors has a bigger surface.
so you could always produce more APS-C sensors then FF sensors on a wafer.

And you can always crop a larger image into a smaller image...

[DanielW]

...and that's why I'm keeping my humble 60D, 17-55, 50 1.4 and flash kit, and buying myself a Fuji X20 or ax X100s, with all its "limitations", for carrying around and for family events. In the future I'll probably get the successor of the X-Pro1 or X-E1, or even the successor of the Olympus OM-D EM-5, and carry lighter gear. The 60D is great and serves me pretty well -- I'm keeping it --, but my razor-thin DoF fever is cooling off pretty quickly and it looks like Fuji's line of thinking fits the bill better than Canon's for my needs.
Anyone else considering Fuji or Olympus?
Cheers,
Daniel

[dstppy]

Personally, Canon...if you are listening....Keep semi-pro APS-C.  I'll buy a high quality 7DII as soon as it is available for pre-order.

Even if it's just the same old 7D with built-in GPS, WiFi, new CPU and extra SD slot?

DigicV+ and tight/wide MFA?

absolutely

Everything else is just gravy.

[pedro]

Hi CR folks

I think people should not be reading more into what Masaya said than what he ACTUALLY said.  Remember, the unquoted parts of that interview are simply DPReview's 'take' on it... nothing more (and nothing less, I have respect for DPReview). Quite a bit of what is written in this post assumes incorrectly.

What Masaya actually said about 70D and/or 7DmkII in the interview is very little, and not concrete about those models nor related to the possibility of which models will still be produced, and when, etc, but rather he is talking about market segmentation.   

So, careful and critical reading and analysis of what Masaya said specifically regarding APS-C and 70D / 7DmkII is  required.  His words are in bold in this part of that link / article, which I'm copying & highlighting below:

DPR: ... the future of APS-C at the semi-pro level is in doubt, he says:
'That's something we're considering at the moment. From our semi-pro users there's still demand for APS-C but in the future, I think we will see an increase in the number of full-frame models.'
DPR: Either way, that doesn't close the door on an EOS 70D though - when asked when we can expect one, Maeda promises: 'some day in the future. Without fail.

I'm a manager in the Australian Government, and part of my job is to write very specific documentation / policy and to read critically. (I'm not trying to boast, just applying some of my skills here).

So, my take on what Masaya actually says is as follows:
- Canon realises a significant proportion of semi-pros currently demand APS-C
- In the future, Canon believes there will possibly be more demand from semi-pros for FF
- That doesn't mean some or many semi-pros will still want / prefer / need / demand an APS-C
- Which in turn means that Canon needs to determine how to market future models like 70D and 7DmkII
- the feature set and segment positioning of the 70D (& 7DmkII) might be quite determined by the 700D / entry level Canon APS-C DLSRs
- A 7DmkII is still likely on the cards. I think planning, research & development of the 7DmkII has happened some years ago, and R&D are being finalised soon - then ready for production (nowhere does Masaya hint that a 7DmkII is off the cards)
- the 7D has been a popular and long-living successful camera for Canon (ie good profit). I think Canon realise if they create another successful, and perhaps 'noticably improved in some aspects' 7DmkII, they can get a lot of mileage out of it, that is: good profit again.
- Canon is smart and would be very conscious about brand loyalty, and if they remove a 'top of the line APS-C, while the competition offer good top of the line APS-C sized DSLRs, then some folk who don't want to (or can't afford) the jump to FF, may go to other brands.
- equivalent FF lenses are often significantly more expensive than APS-C (when I write 'equivalent' - I mainly mean in terms of 'effective' focal length. (I do realise there are many other aspects to be considered than focal length, but I don't want to write pages here on that!)

Well... feel free to comment on what I've written and determined from the interview!

Totally apart from DPReview's interview - I believe we'll see some high level APS-C cameras.  There are serious Canon EF-S lenses (eg 15-85mm, 17-55mm, 10-22mm, 60mm macro, etc) and many EF lenses (eg 70-300mm L, 100mm macro, etc) that just work so well on APS-C too!

Cheers and regards. Wishing all a wonderful weekend... it's Friday evening here in Australia! YAY!!   

Paul

thanks pj for these informations and your hermeneutics on it. So what Canon could do with a 7DII is to equip it with the 6Ds FF sensor and built in 1.6 crop mode, improve the weather sealing and they're done. Anyone?

[AprilForever]

There is no reason not to have FF cameras except production cost. that will be solved in the future and hopefully all cameras will be FF. Tough i guess APS-C will still always be around. I mean "back in the days" everybody was fine with 35mm film also 

A good step Canon Just get 1.4TC for reach...

It will always be cheaper to use APS-C than ff. 12 fps full frame? 6000 bucks. Hopefully we will see a APS-C 7D mk II at 12 or 10 fps at no more than 2500...

[neuroanatomist]

PJ1974 - I think you're right, people often read between the lines and see something completely subjective.

+1 - when a corporate talking head makes statements like, "'That's something we're considering at the moment. From our semi-pro users there's still demand for APS-C but in the future, I think we will see an increase in the number of full-frame models,'" the 'in the future' part is very forward-looking, and it could be years before that becomes reality. 

IIRC, Canon stated several years ago that their goal was eventually move to all full frame sensors.  Eventually, as in 'some day' - we're still pretty far from that day, IMO.

This interview is nowhere close to a 'nail in the coffin' for a 7D Mark II - I think we'll see both a 70D and a 7D Mark II this year, and both will be APS-C.

[insanitybeard]

I know this is all conjecture, but it would really surprise me if Canon did not look to refresh and continue the 7D line, surely the 7D has been too successful to consign to history. From a marketing point of view, it would be a giant gamble on Canon's part to discontinue one of their best selling camera bodies based on the logic that it would force potential 7D customers to go full frame, unless full frame bodies- and glass- become cheap enough to be a viable alternative. In the current economic climate, most people only have a finite amount of money to spend on what for many is a hobby.

[Don Haines]

This interview is nowhere close to a 'nail in the coffin' for a 7D Mark II - I think we'll see both a 70D and a 7D Mark II this year, and both will be APS-C.

I believe he said "'some day in the future. Without fail". I agree.... that's nowhere near " a nail in the coffin".

This forum seems to constantly breaking down into diatribes about the superiority of FF and how APS-C  produces inferior results, and completely misses the point. The vast number of consumers are NOT going to shell out the money to purchase the latest and greatest cameras and lenses, they are happy with good value for the dollar. If a company delivers good value for the dollar to the mass market, then they will survive. Canon is represented across the camera spectrum with many different models and capacities. If a segment of that spectrum is selling well, they are not going to shut it down and force those consumers to go elsewhere.

We members of this forum are not the typical market.... how many of us have spent over $1000 for a lens? How many of the masses will not spend $500? We are like race car drivers who bitterly complain that economy cars do not have 1000hp motors...... a disconnect from reality.

[sandymandy]

flawed logic.. you will always have more reach with a crop and a 1.4 TC.

And how many people are actually using a 1.4TC on an APS-C body? Its quite rare imho. I can also say add more n more extension rings if u just care about reach....flawed logic


Only advantage of APS-C is reach and price. But u dont have to save a lot more to get a better FF body than the endlevel APS-C. Yes, i hate APS-C or anything smaller than FF Still using it tough 
I just think there are too many Canon DSLR models and levels. They should have entry, advanced and pro. Why there is like super entry (xxxxD), normal entry (xxxD), upper entry (xxD) advanced (7D) upper advance (6D) end Advanced (5D) and pro (1dX)? Its just too many imho. And all APS-C produce the same image quality. mostly the rebels even produce better images then the 7D cuz they get updated more often 
I would NEVER get a 7D if it gives the same IQ as the cheapest DSLR from Canon. Paying so much money just for a better body material is ridicoulus imho. Or wow 10 FPS? Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.

[unfocused]

Paul (PJ1974), Honsten and Neuro,

I'm with you guys. This is a very brief and vague interview. I took the references to APS-C as meaning "our crystal ball is in the shop. We are watching the market and it may be that some day, the niche now filled by semi-pro APS-C might be replaced by full-frame, but we don't know that yet."

On the other hand, I want to rant about about the photo news media. I don't understand why industry writers have to be such sycophants. They never ask the tough questions of these executives, but instead behave like a bunch of lap dogs letting these executives sail through the interviews with softball questions.

Almost anyone who comments on this forum could have asked better questions:

The street price of the 5DIII has dropped to below $3,000 since introduction. Was your market research wrong when you originally priced the 5DIII, did you underestimate the competition, or was this a conscious strategy to maximize return on early adopters?

Canon seems to be pricing its latest lenses at stratospheric levels. What's your target market for these lenses?

Your APS-C sensor is now more than three years old. Many are questioning whether or not Canon has the engineering bench strength to compete with other manufacturers and innovate in sensor development. What's your response?

The 6D has been criticized as being under-spec'd in comparison to Nikon's D600. Are you concerned about that?

The list could go on and on, but instead, we get a tiny little interview completely dictated by the corporate messengers.

[Don Haines]

Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.

I find "press and pray" to be a very derogatory reference to a very usefull tool.

Follow this scenario....
On the riverbank we have three people taking pictures of a osprey fishing. We have Neuro, with a 1DX and 600mm lens, we have me with a 1Dx and a 600mm lens, and we have my neice with a point/shoot.... Neuro has the presence of mind (and probably has scans to prove it ) to set his camera for burst mode at 10 frames per second... I rely on pushing the shutter quickly, and my neice has to wait a few seconds between pictures......

The Osprey swoops down and snatches up a fish...... Neuro has about 15 shots to choose from as the fish is picked up out of the water.... I have 3 or 4.... my neice gets one from a second after the grab. Who do you think got the nicest shot?.... And as an asside, who do you think is going to be the most excited and happiest with thier picture?

[docsmith]

Personally, Canon...if you are listening....Keep semi-pro APS-C.  I'll buy a high quality 7DII as soon as it is available for pre-order.

Even if it's just the same old 7D with built-in GPS, WiFi, new CPU and extra SD slot?

No, by "High Quality" I am refering to other improvements.  I'd like it to be slightly sharper, better performance at low ISO and hopefully some improved performance at higher ISO.

Regarding the 5DIII price, just look at the value of the yen.  February 2012 it was trading at ~75 yen per $1 USD.  Now it is trading at ~92 yen per $1 USD.  Since I don't know what BH or Adorama actually paid for a 5DIII, I'll use the street price.  The $3,500 paid for a 5DIII in February 2012 netted Canon 262,500 yen.   Assuming 262,500 yen is the "factory price" of a 5DIII, Canon is getting the same 262,500 yen for $2,850 USD today. 

Combine that with most new items dropping after initial release and you have today's sub $3k 5DIII.

Honestly, even though we are paying less (sub $3k) for a 5DIII right now, Canon may be making the same or even a little more of a profit now than last year.  That is the power of the devaluation of the yen.  Now, think about lenses.  Those prices haven't gone down.  Canon should be doing pretty well there right now.