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Author Topic: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change  (Read 49249 times)

ahsanford

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2013, 02:14:57 AM »
(I refuse to say "+1" because it looks so nerdy)

-1

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2013, 02:14:57 AM »

ahsanford

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2013, 02:21:43 AM »
I am still unclear as to what the "lesser" cameras markets are.  I get the 1D series as professional, but to me, I feel the 5D falls into the professional category as well.  Is this wrong?  I never thought of the 7D as a pro camera until recently, but the xxD series and the Rebel series (xxxD) seem to blend into one convoluted pile.

Has Canon positioned the 60D and the 7D similar to the 1D-S and the 1D Mkxx?   Canon seems to be "leap frogging" an not working in parallel, when they issue cameras.


Confused.. but what else is new...,

I posted this recently elsewhere, but here's my vote on what each trimline is for:

    XXXXD:      Cost cost cost.  "I cannot buy a film camera any longer", "my high school student son wants to pick up photography", etc.

    XXXD:        A few key consumer level niceties: touch screen, swivel screen, so-so AF for video. "I just want it to take nice pictures, and occasionally a video", "Do I need a longer lens?  Maybe...", etc.

    XXD:          A thicker grip (I hear this often), top LCD for quick adjustments, less reliance on auto modes. "I've been shooting a while now", "I felt limited by my older camera", etc.

    7D:            Serious shooters and some pros who see APS-C as a strength and not a liability.  Better build.  Fast burst.  "This is the best tool for birding", "I need high burst rate to cover sports for the local paper",  "I really like tweaking my lens AF", etc.

    6D:            Serious shooters who do see APS-C as a liability but don't want to pay for all the bells and whistles.  "I have always wanted a FF camera", "It's not the highest end, but you should see the pictures I get with this."

    5D3:          Pros, videographers, well-funded enthusiasts, etc. who will pay for IQ and build quality but do not require the apocalypse proof build, cost or size of 1D bodies.  "It's solid and doesn't let me down", "Shoosh, we're filming right now", "[Quiet shutter noise at wedding]", etc.

    1DX:          Those people.  "Welcome to my studio",  "We're invading Asia.  Thought I'd tag along", "It was this or the obsidian steering wheel for my yacht" ::)

- A
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 02:24:32 AM by ahsanford »

candyman

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2013, 02:35:41 AM »
Whenever a CEO is giving an interview, he/she has to consider the stockmarket. Investors and stakeholders are closely listening to each word. My reading of this interview is that his words should push sales. Like, 7D is still a great camera. The successor will enter new territory with higher price. Get a 7D now while still available for a good price.
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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2013, 03:15:17 AM »
I am still unclear as to what the "lesser" cameras markets are.  I get the 1D series as professional, but to me, I feel the 5D falls into the professional category as well.  Is this wrong?  I never thought of the 7D as a pro camera until recently, but the xxD series and the Rebel series (xxxD) seem to blend into one convoluted pile.

Has Canon positioned the 60D and the 7D similar to the 1D-S and the 1D Mkxx?   Canon seems to be "leap frogging" an not working in parallel, when they issue cameras.


Confused.. but what else is new...,

I posted this recently elsewhere, but here's my vote on what each trimline is for:

    XXXXD:      Cost cost cost.  "I cannot buy a film camera any longer", "my high school student son wants to pick up photography", etc.

    XXXD:        A few key consumer level niceties: touch screen, swivel screen, so-so AF for video. "I just want it to take nice pictures, and occasionally a video", "Do I need a longer lens?  Maybe...", etc.

    XXD:          A thicker grip (I hear this often), top LCD for quick adjustments, less reliance on auto modes. "I've been shooting a while now", "I felt limited by my older camera", etc.

    7D:            Serious shooters and some pros who see APS-C as a strength and not a liability.  Better build.  Fast burst.  "This is the best tool for birding", "I need high burst rate to cover sports for the local paper",  "I really like tweaking my lens AF", etc.

    6D:            Serious shooters who do see APS-C as a liability but don't want to pay for all the bells and whistles.  "I have always wanted a FF camera", "It's not the highest end, but you should see the pictures I get with this."

    5D3:          Pros, videographers, well-funded enthusiasts, etc. who will pay for IQ and build quality but do not require the apocalypse proof build, cost or size of 1D bodies.  "It's solid and doesn't let me down", "Shoosh, we're filming right now", "[Quiet shutter noise at wedding]", etc.

    1DX:          Those people.  "Welcome to my studio",  "We're invading Asia.  Thought I'd tag along", "It was this or the obsidian steering wheel for my yacht" ::)

- A

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that1guyy

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2013, 03:44:07 AM »
With the current price of the 7D and the large number of  used and refurbs available in the $1000 - $1200 range, I'd wonder who would buy a 70D that was not the equal of a 7D?? 

Agree.

That's why I actually think that the 70D will get Rebel-ized even further.
It will have an even smaller body than the 60D, maybe no top LCD, etc..
All this so that Canon can lower the price to $950 at introduction.

And the 7DII will be announced at $1600-1800 in the fall.
Definitely not a 1DIV replacement, as many here seem to want.

Let's see who'll guess it right  8).

Yes and the Rebel line will magically disappear right?

M.ST

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2013, 04:01:43 AM »
The new designed sensor in the 7D replacement is a big step up in image quality (low and high ISO range). The prototypes in the field also have a new processor in it.

My advice: For all people that look at the 6D wait until the 7D replacement is announced. Maybe the 7D replacement meets your expectations better than the 6D. The 7D replacement will be not a cheap camera because Canon lets you pay for speed, image quality and the features.

I like the 7D replacement to replace my teleconverters with the "top of the line APS-C body".

iP337

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2013, 04:04:58 AM »
@Lopicma
It's best to consider all single digit EOS cameras to be "professional" level, although I wouldn't buy into the whole prosumer/consumer marketing speak, with good glass you can take great pictures and videos with even a Rebel "Txi"(xx0D) but the more expensive cameras just make it easier.  And a better analogy would be the 1Ds is to the 5D(high MP Full Frame for Studio and Landscape work) as the old 1D is to the 7D (a cropped fast shutter burst camera for Sports and Wildlife work).

@CarlTN
I respectfully disagree with just about everything you've said in this thread. I doubt Canon will go with a new crop factor since they are heavily invested in the 1.62x EF-S lenses which supposedly already have some vignette issues on Sony's 1.5x sensors.  It will likely be improved micro-lenses, rear sensor lighting or better CR2 noise processing to makeup for APS-C's lack of signal to noise and dynamic range.

I think Mt Spokane Photography brought up a very good point, for a long time the "x0D" line has been Canon's main segment but Canon would have to make the 70D appeal to people planning on a used or refurbished 7D for it to sell well.  like what they did with the 6D, which is way better than 5D2. I actually haven't used the 6D yet (lol) but I've used (and hated) the 5D2 for a long time; I use the 5D3 and the best thing I found about it is the high ISO noise, I use it at 6400 most of the time but even at 25600 I found the noise to be appealing rather than the 5D2's 3200 ISO look, and the 6D is supposedly even better in that department.  The noise is not only less but also more appealing as it's mostly fine monochrome noise in the shadows (kind of like how film used to look) and not bands of red green and blue specks.  On top of that the 6D has far better video codecs, ergonomics and low light auto focusing (ok well I have used one, just not on a job yet so it doesn't count).  I always felt ripped off for buying the 5D2 for over 2k (Rebel features with a Full Frame sensor I used to say) but I find the improvements in the 6D to be worth $300 over a used or refurbished 5D2.

@Ahsanford
I agree with your assumptions.  If I may add to them, I assume the 7DmkII to have a 22.3MP APS-C senor, 41 cross-type at f/4 with 5 dual-diagonal at f/2.8, 10 fps bursts, 1080p60 H.265 codecs, dual cards with UHS-1 support, dual digic 5+, and clean 3200 ISO.  I expect the mid $2000 range, not only to sperate the line from the 6D and 70D but also to help keep the 5D3 up in the $3000 range.

 I'm optimistic with what I expect from the 70D(or will it be 8D lol), I assume it will "replace" the 7D just as the 6D has "replaced" the 5d2; but being realistic it will probably be like a 7D with built in wifi/gps, the Rebel T4i's 18MP sensor with STM lens support, a vari-angle touch LCD and UHS-1 card support.  Actually more like a better built T4i(maybe it'll be called a T40i) with wifi and 7D features, but if it doesn't have improved ISO noise (clean 3200) and at least a 19 point (cross type) AF system with 6 fps bursts I will not be buying or using it.  I hope it has the IPB and All-I video codecs but it looks like Canon is reserving those for the "xD" series cameras, so I'd just be happy with the better ISO noise I've seen in the 5D3/6D and willing to pay the $1500 that I assume it'll be priced at to keep the 6D from slipping down from $2000.

I just sold my 7D in anticipation of a new Canon APS-C body, my main concerns are Video and Sports photography so I'm hoping for a Canon replacement soon.

(+1 if you think I'm nerdy:)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 05:46:35 AM by iP337 »

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2013, 04:04:58 AM »

NormanBates

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2013, 04:05:13 AM »
Is this really news?

What are the chances of:
* a 70D not being release at some point in the future
* Canon saying 7D2 won't have improved specs over 7D

crasher8

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2013, 07:14:15 AM »
I for one would welcome an APS-C body being spec'd (and priced) in the semi pro arena. I'm a former 7D user and am glad to be done with it's noise. But Who wouldn't love more reach for a 2nd body that had ISO performance nearing the 5D3? I know I need a 2nd body by the end of this year and I will not be getting another mk3 (due to cost) and I have narrowed it to a dropped price Mk2 or the mythical 7D2 IF it's cleaned up over 6400.

roadrunner

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Re: EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C is Unknown
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2013, 08:41:43 AM »

Getting back to the original story of this thread... By the time the 7D2 comes out, I think it will cost more than the 6D.  This wound some people up when I last offered this, but I think a stellar APS-C body that prevents you from needing to buy the longest glass (because of crop) is worth its weight in gold to some folks.  A $2K APS-C body, as such, is entirely possible.

I tend to support your view.

It would be astonishing if it was less than the 6D. We see with the difference between the 5D3 and the 1DX a large price increase for features which don't have a massive impact on the optimal IQ achievable (more the ability to maintain good IQ under worse/difficult conditions).

I'm getting a $2499 feeling.

I'm not even disagreeing that the 7DII may be worth more than the 6D (We will have to wait and see) but do you really think they would price it so much more than the 6D? From a marketing standpoint, wouldn't be much better to have the 6D and 7D at the same price point? In the 7D, you would have a better build quality and an absurdly fast fire rate. With the 6D, you would have better image quality and low light capabilities. I think these two cameras would be better of around the $1800 range (both of them), especially if the 70D is coming in around $1000.

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2013, 09:39:06 AM »
The main critique of Canons current sensor technology is the DR (noise and banding) at low ISO. While I would love to be wrong, I think that the 7D segment is a very strange spot to introduce improvements to those aspects of their sensor technology. 7D is more about speed, AF, high-ISO than extreme DR at low ISO. The 5Dmk2-segment seems like a more likely place to radically improve this Canon weak spot (landscape photographers who can often afford shooting at low ISO and who have little control over scene lighting).

But then, the 5Dmk3 showed that Canon are willing to "re-target" their model ranges, so who knows.

-h

I think Canon held off introducing the high pixel density bodies (7D replacement and 30+MP FF) until the new sensor technology was ready.  I was surprised they released the new FF bodies last year with the older technology as they won't be updated for a long while.

dave

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Re: EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C is Unknown
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2013, 10:20:49 AM »
My guess is probably as bad as anyone's. However the longish wait for the 7D2 suggests it will be pretty good. I just reckon Canon are due to produce something really strong...which they won't be shy in charging for.


Getting back to the original story of this thread... By the time the 7D2 comes out, I think it will cost more than the 6D.  This wound some people up when I last offered this, but I think a stellar APS-C body that prevents you from needing to buy the longest glass (because of crop) is worth its weight in gold to some folks.  A $2K APS-C body, as such, is entirely possible.

I tend to support your view.

It would be astonishing if it was less than the 6D. We see with the difference between the 5D3 and the 1DX a large price increase for features which don't have a massive impact on the optimal IQ achievable (more the ability to maintain good IQ under worse/difficult conditions).

I'm getting a $2499 feeling.

I'm not even disagreeing that the 7DII may be worth more than the 6D (We will have to wait and see) but do you really think they would price it so much more than the 6D? From a marketing standpoint, wouldn't be much better to have the 6D and 7D at the same price point? In the 7D, you would have a better build quality and an absurdly fast fire rate. With the 6D, you would have better image quality and low light capabilities. I think these two cameras would be better of around the $1800 range (both of them), especially if the 70D is coming in around $1000.

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2013, 10:59:59 AM »
Just a quick thought regarding the 70D and 7DII.

Canon has three full frame cameras with three different full frame sensors in them. I wonder why we (myself included) think that the 7DII, 70D and top of the line rebels should share the same sensor, just because the previous generation did?

Nikon rumors is reporting that the D7000 replacement is coming before April. If true, that pretty much guarantees that the 70D will be released soon as well. If the D7000 replacement does have a 24mp sensor topping out at ISO 6400 as reported, I would expect a similar sensor from Canon (22-24 mp).

Then, I wouldn't be surprised to see a D300s and 7DII replacement show up in the summer, with the 7D having a completely different sensor. Given Canon's recent pattern with full frame, maybe a 20 mp sensor with higher ISO performance.

Canon has made themselves the king of low-light sensors. They've listened to their customers who say they will gladly trade a few less megapixels for clean high ISO performance. I think they may realize that is is a trade the 7D users would also gladly make.
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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2013, 10:59:59 AM »

EchoLocation

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2013, 11:14:15 AM »
the longer this goes on, the more i expect the 7DII to have a different sensor with new technology, an extremely good AF, weather sealing, 8fps, and cost $2500.
The 70D might be more like an updated 7DI with a flip screen, AFMA, 19pt af, and a $1400 price.
For the 7DII I think Canon will go after the educated birder or sports shooter who wants the extra reach of APS-C specifically and isn't afraid to pay for quality.
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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2013, 11:38:25 AM »
the longer this goes on, the more i expect the 7DII to have a different sensor with new technology, an extremely good AF, weather sealing, 8fps, and cost $2500.
The 70D might be more like an updated 7DI with a flip screen, AFMA, 19pt af, and a $1400 price.
For the 7DII I think Canon will go after the educated birder or sports shooter who wants the extra reach of APS-C specifically and isn't afraid to pay for quality.

Like I said in an earlier post. Use of 1Dx batteries in the grip would be a HUGE upgrade (faster AF). Easy to engineer into the body and circuitry (more robust) and make a dual purpose grip similar to the BG-E11 that can use both 1Dx and LP-E6 Batteries.

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2013, 11:38:25 AM »