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Author Topic: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change  (Read 93913 times)

dlleno

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2013, 03:31:27 PM »
Would you all be so enthusiastisc about FF bodies if that new 7D ends up have 22MP, with comparable stats of course?

FF enthusiasm with long glass will still continue... Canon's strategy is working :D .  But a good point to keep in mind here is that so far the comparison is with different technology life cycles -- the tired old 18mp sensor of the 7D compared with the more recent FF sensors of the 5D3 and 1DX.  To be more complete, earlier comparisons between 5D2 and 7D, for example, still point to the relatively small advantage of the 7D, even when the conditions are optimized.  The real world IQ gap between the 1.6x crop factor technolgy and the FF technolgy continues to be rather wide, which is precisely what is being pointed out here.   

imho, the key question yet to be answered is "how much of a jump in IQ will the 7D2 sensor represent?"   We just don't know.  Without clear data, or until we see/hold/use the real thing, the prognostications will not be that meaningful I suspect.   Moreover, the expectation of a new technology 22mp 1.6x crop sensor with comparable IQ to that of todays FF sensors is still very unlikely, as far as my own "not very meaningful"  prognostication is concerned :D

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2013, 03:31:27 PM »

jrista

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Re: EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C is Unknown
« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2013, 03:40:51 PM »
First, I'd like to say thanks to all of you for a well-reasoned and polite discussion.
I only have one camera (7D) and have been debating getting a 5Diii.

...
That said, it should be noted that the higher spatial resolution of the 7D is only really a benefit in focal-length-limited scenarios. If you are stuck with a specific lens (say the 600 II), unable to get closer to your subject, and unable to add a teleconverter, then the 7D will always be capable of resolving more. In all honesty, that is frequently a contrived scenario, and you more often than not are at least capable of slapping on a 1.4x TC, and in the case of the 1D X (and hopefully soon enough, for the first time, the 5D III as well) adding a 2x TC. For the more skilled, getting closer to your subject is also not a problem, and most professional bird photographers have the sneaky skill to get within feet of jittery subjects, so filling the frame and getting as many pixels on subject is rarely an honest real-world problem when money and time are no object (or at least a secondary concern).
While there's no doubt the 7D has its limitations in ISO performance, especially, I have to say I don't think the "focal-length-limited" scenario is a contrived scenario at all. For me that seems to be the rule rather than the exception and its not because I'm unskilled. From personal experience:
 1. You're on a cliff on one side of the river and the bear is on a carcass on the other side.
 2. An owl in a nest is being mobbed by crows - same deal, can't get closer because you have to drop off the steep slope and wouldn't be able to see anything but trees.
 3. You don't want to get closer to the wolf pack
 4.  etc.
As far as slapping on the teleconverter, I already did that with the 7D.

Very good points, and it is good to point out that focal-length limited scenarios are not "impossible". I did mention that they were often contrived, but that does not necessarily mean always, and the higher density (and therefor added reach benefit) of the 7D sensor is definitely a bonus in those scenarios.

Now that I have that out of my system, I'm hoping you guys can point out the error in my thinking here:
Given the "focal-length-limited" scenario above, and assuming good light (I know, that usually (or should I say almost always) isn't the case but speaking theoretically here), you want a 16 x 20 print and you crop the FF to the 1.6 dimensions to get equal subject sizes on the final print. I think that gives you 216 pixels per inch for the 18 MP APS-C vs. 150 for the 22 MP FF crop. Doesn't that give the APS "reach" some advantage?

Definitely. There will always be the benefit of added reach with any sensor that has a higher pixel density. It does not necessarily have to be an APS-C sensor, it could be a FF 47mp sensor, which has the same pixel pitch (4.3 microns) as the 7D. If the 7D II hits the street with a 24.4mp sensor, that is about the same a FF 64mp sensor. Reach is a benefit of pixel density, not necessarily form factor.

That said, it really depends on how clear and sharp, and to some degree noisy, your images are. From what I've seen in terms of bird photographs from the 1D X, it is impeccably sharp! Even in a focal-length limited scenario, you could probably blow its images up pretty far and still be satisfied. You may not have the same amount of detail, but that shouldn't really matter in most cases...so long as the detail captured looks good...is sharp, clear, with high color fidelity and low noise. Noise is less of a problem in print for enlargements up to 2x native size, as print density is generally much higher than screen density. Even at 150ppi, you are still about 45% more dense than the average 103ppi 30" screen (or 106ppi 27" screen). In the case of screens with 96ppi, that same print is 57% more dense, and in the case of a 72ppi screen, the same print is over 100% more dense.

Also, keep in mind, printers don't really print pixels when all said and done. They print ink droplets. The driver's rasterizer (or perhaps a custom rasterizer) converts image pixels into a set of ink droplets of varying color with a given dithering to maximize the quality of the image in print. Depending on how carefully you tune your images for print (manually resize to the exact native size and PPI for the print you intend to make, manually set white and black points, manually verify gamut, etc.), and depending on the capabilities of the rasterizer you use (Canon and Epson driver rasterizers actually do a pretty good job these days, but better third-party alternatives can also be found, usually for a price), the appearance of noise in the final print can take on a very different quality, usually a better quality. I rarely have problems with noise in my prints, usually generated with fine-tuned images tweaked in PS6, and printed with the Canon driver, on a PIXMA Pro 9500 II and various high quality fine art papers. The only time I do have problems with noise is with images taken at ISO settings above 1600, and then, usually ISO 2500, 3200, and higher.

Getting all of the complexity out of the way, though. I would say that for the most part, just about any image taken at an "artistically usable" ISO setting on any camera can usually withstand up to a 2x enlargement, assuming you maximized the potential of whatever gear you are using. The 1D X offers numerous benefits over the 7D, and even if you crop it, you should be able to enlarge that cropped image up to about 2x or so before you could really notice any IQ issues in print. If you really wanted to enlarge a 1D X crop to the same size as a 2x enlarged 7D full size image, you could probably pull it off thanks to the IQ benefit of the 1D X. The detail level wouldn't be the same, but I'd bet few people would notice.

jrista

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2013, 06:35:03 PM »
I guess I should clarify that in my sharpness examples with the 7D, I was not trying to say that the 7D is a better camera than the 5D III or 1D X. I just wanted to make it clear that the 7D sensor is most definitely not a bad sensor. It gets a lot of bad rap, but in my experience more of the "issues" with the 7D have to do with the lens, more so than with the sensor. The considerable complaints about 7D softness, and as a byproduct of the softness its noise, in my opinion, are really more complaints about the 7D revealing flaws with ones gear.

My ultimate point was that if you use high quality glass designed to resolve enough detail for high resolution sensors (i.e. any EF Mark II generation L-series lens), you'll utilize the 7D to its fullest. It is not a great high ISO performer, but at all the ISO settings it does perform well at, the overall IQ should be no different in real terms than what you may get out of any better camera. You will, however, find that the 7D's limitations are greater than that of newer Canon cameras. It falters at higher ISO settings where the 5D III and 1D X shine. It's AF system lacks the consistency and accuracy of the new 61pt AF system.



Sharp detail eats noise for breakfast; Noise eats softness for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Maximize sharpness with high quality glass, and noise will quickly become a background issue with the 7D. Use inferior glass, and the limitations of both the glass and the 7D will even more quickly become readily apparent.

garyknrd

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2013, 07:53:24 PM »
            Sharp detail eats noise for breakfast; Noise eats softness for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

That is a very true statement. I am using very good glass also. I was out yeaterday and it is amazing. I can now shoot at OSO 1250-1600. Expose to the right and crop to about 33-50%. Before I got the good glass I would of argued with you on this. But it has now taken me from ISO 800 max to 1600 max. The only problem is with AF. The 7D is just not good enough with the new glass? It really makes using a T.C. a problem. I have stopped using a T.C. with the 7D. Low light with a T.C. for me is just a nightmare.

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jrista

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2013, 08:16:50 PM »
            Sharp detail eats noise for breakfast; Noise eats softness for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

That is a very true statement. I am using very good glass also. I was out yeaterday and it is amazing. I can now shoot at OSO 1250-1600. Expose to the right and crop to about 33-50%. Before I got the good glass I would of argued with you on this. But it has now taken me from ISO 800 max to 1600 max. The only problem is with AF. The 7D is just not good enough with the new glass? It really makes using a T.C. a problem. I have stopped using a T.C. with the 7D. Low light with a T.C. for me is just a nightmare.

www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos

I would agree that the 7D AF is not great at f/5.6. It is fairly slow, even in decent light (it is only really "fast" in great light). That poses a bit of a problem for any AI Servo tracking when you are initially locking on. Once locked, it does a fairly good job...but there is no question the new 61pt AF system is vastly superior in all cases, and much faster at f/4 and faster at f/5.6.

WildBill

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2013, 09:48:01 PM »
I must be doing something wrong because I continue to take gorgeous pictures with my 7D.  After reading this thread, and several others on this forum, I'm now convinced my camera is a piece of junk.  I hope I can figure out what I'm doing wrong so my pictures will match my camera's abilities and I can move on to FF where all real photographers belong.  I appreciate any help you guys can give me.

AlanF

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2013, 11:22:46 PM »
I must be doing something wrong because I continue to take gorgeous pictures with my 7D.  After reading this thread, and several others on this forum, I'm now convinced my camera is a piece of junk.  I hope I can figure out what I'm doing wrong so my pictures will match my camera's abilities and I can move on to FF where all real photographers belong.  I appreciate any help you guys can give me.
No one is saying that.  Quite the opposite: in good light, the 7D is the equal of the 5D III in many circumstances at a fraction of the price.  But, the 5D III is better at high iso and has more consistent and faster focus.  I have taken great photos and will continue so to do with my 7D. But, the 5D III loses very little if anything by having 1.6 times less reach. 
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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2013, 11:22:46 PM »

jrista

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2013, 11:49:07 PM »
I must be doing something wrong because I continue to take gorgeous pictures with my 7D.  After reading this thread, and several others on this forum, I'm now convinced my camera is a piece of junk.  I hope I can figure out what I'm doing wrong so my pictures will match my camera's abilities and I can move on to FF where all real photographers belong.  I appreciate any help you guys can give me.
No one is saying that.  Quite the opposite: in good light, the 7D is the equal of the 5D III in many circumstances at a fraction of the price.  But, the 5D III is better at high iso and has more consistent and faster focus.  I have taken great photos and will continue so to do with my 7D. But, the 5D III loses very little if anything by having 1.6 times less reach.

I think he was being sarcastic. ;) That said, you get a few feet from your subject, and even the "lowly" 100-400mm L lens on the 7D will do you justice:



A Killdeer in late fall/early winter, taken with the 7D, 100-400mm @ 400mm, 1/1000s, f/7.1, ISO 200. The 7D can certainly take great photos, even with "crappy" glass like the 100-400 L (although I will say, I really kind of hate the boke from the 100-400...really NOT of any great quality). For those who miss WildBill's sarcasm...keep in mind, we've been comparing the 7D to the likes of the 5D III and 1D X. Arguably two of the best DSLRs the world has ever seen...

iP337

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2013, 12:34:18 AM »
I must be doing something wrong because I continue to take gorgeous pictures with my 7D.  After reading this thread, and several others on this forum, I'm now convinced my camera is a piece of junk.  I hope I can figure out what I'm doing wrong so my pictures will match my camera's abilities and I can move on to FF where all real photographers belong.  I appreciate any help you guys can give me.

+1

Even though I traded my 7D for a 5D3 I would trade the 5D3 for a 7D2.  I'm hoping it's just an APS-C 5D3 that's a stop behind in the signal to noise ratio and dynamic range.

garyknrd

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2013, 01:45:02 AM »

Even though I traded my 7D for a 5D3 I would trade the 5D3 for a 7D2.  I'm hoping it's just an APS-C 5D3 that's a stop behind in the signal to noise ratio and dynamic range.

+1   Man I would be in heaven.
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-Jarred-

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2013, 02:39:14 AM »

Even though I traded my 7D for a 5D3 I would trade the 5D3 for a 7D2.  I'm hoping it's just an APS-C 5D3 that's a stop behind in the signal to noise ratio and dynamic range.

+1   Man I would be in heaven.

Agree'd, I'm upgrading from a 600D and I'm finding it difficult to not just blow it on a 7D instead of waiting for the MkII. While the 7D is still a hell of an upgrade over the 600D, I know I'll be kicking myself when the MkII gets released if I caved...

MUST. HOLD. OUT. LONGER.
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AlanF

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2013, 03:05:16 AM »
I must be doing something wrong because I continue to take gorgeous pictures with my 7D.  After reading this thread, and several others on this forum, I'm now convinced my camera is a piece of junk.  I hope I can figure out what I'm doing wrong so my pictures will match my camera's abilities and I can move on to FF where all real photographers belong.  I appreciate any help you guys can give me.

+1

Even though I traded my 7D for a 5D3 I would trade the 5D3 for a 7D2.  I'm hoping it's just an APS-C 5D3 that's a stop behind in the signal to noise ratio and dynamic range.

As it looks like a 7D II is not coming out for ages, I bought a 5D III but  didn't trade in my 7D but kept it because it is still a great camera.  If and when the 7D II comes out and it overtakes the 5D III, I'll trade in the 7D for it and have the best of both worlds - a great FF and a state-of-the art APS-C. 
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The Bad Duck

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2013, 03:37:35 AM »

Even though I traded my 7D for a 5D3 I would trade the 5D3 for a 7D2.  I'm hoping it's just an APS-C 5D3 that's a stop behind in the signal to noise ratio and dynamic range.

+1   Man I would be in heaven.

Agree'd, I'm upgrading from a 600D and I'm finding it difficult to not just blow it on a 7D instead of waiting for the MkII. While the 7D is still a hell of an upgrade over the 600D, I know I'll be kicking myself when the MkII gets released if I caved...

MUST. HOLD. OUT. LONGER.

Buy a lens or some lighting equipment. Or a carbon fibre tripod. Or a bag. Or photography books. Or a printer. Or a monitor. Or.... Luckily there are plenty of stuff to buy while waiting for a new camera body!

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2013, 03:37:35 AM »

AlanF

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2013, 04:14:30 AM »
I must be doing something wrong because I continue to take gorgeous pictures with my 7D.  After reading this thread, and several others on this forum, I'm now convinced my camera is a piece of junk.  I hope I can figure out what I'm doing wrong so my pictures will match my camera's abilities and I can move on to FF where all real photographers belong.  I appreciate any help you guys can give me.
No one is saying that.  Quite the opposite: in good light, the 7D is the equal of the 5D III in many circumstances at a fraction of the price.  But, the 5D III is better at high iso and has more consistent and faster focus.  I have taken great photos and will continue so to do with my 7D. But, the 5D III loses very little if anything by having 1.6 times less reach.

I think he was being sarcastic. ;) That said, you get a few feet from your subject, and even the "lowly" 100-400mm L lens on the 7D will do you justice:



A Killdeer in late fall/early winter, taken with the 7D, 100-400mm @ 400mm, 1/1000s, f/7.1, ISO 200. The 7D can certainly take great photos, even with "crappy" glass like the 100-400 L (although I will say, I really kind of hate the boke from the 100-400...really NOT of any great quality). For those who miss WildBill's sarcasm...keep in mind, we've been comparing the 7D to the likes of the 5D III and 1D X. Arguably two of the best DSLRs the world has ever seen...

Here are the reasons why I have spent a fortune on bodies and lenses. I first started bird photography for the sheer fun of taking photos and identifying the birds, using the 7D and the 100-400mm L. I should have stopped there but a really good Dutch photographer uploaded one of my best photos to a Dutch website www.birdpix.nl. Then, I got hooked on getting more good photos uploaded. It proved to be difficult because they have a team of moderators who reject for the slightest of reasons: too noisy; not sharp enough; oversharpened etc etc. My initial rate of acceptance was about 50% of those shots that were in focus (the 7D is a bit erratic). Here is a photo of a Killdeer I took last year in New Hampshire - it is not much worse than yours but it was rejected as not being sharp enough. In order to get acceptable photos I had to get reasonably close. So, I upgraded the 100-400 to a 300mm f/2.8 II plus extenders (ouch). This doubled or maybe tripled the distance away I needed to get to take sharp photos because of the additional focal length (600 mm) and lens sharpness. Still, I was having too many photos rejected because they were too noisy or if I lowered the noise they became too soft. So, I bit the bullet and bought the 5D III for its lower noise and better focus. Now, this has increased again the number of photos I can sneak past those picky moderators. The unexpected bonus of the 5D III that the loss of crop has not significantly altered the range of distance it covers.

The "rejected" Killdeer photo, also taken with Canon 7D and 100-400mm L.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 05:23:37 AM by AlanF »
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insanitybeard

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2013, 05:33:57 AM »
I guess I should clarify that in my sharpness examples with the 7D, I was not trying to say that the 7D is a better camera than the 5D III or 1D X. I just wanted to make it clear that the 7D sensor is most definitely not a bad sensor. It gets a lot of bad rap, but in my experience more of the "issues" with the 7D have to do with the lens, more so than with the sensor. The considerable complaints about 7D softness, and as a byproduct of the softness its noise, in my opinion, are really more complaints about the 7D revealing flaws with ones gear.

My ultimate point was that if you use high quality glass designed to resolve enough detail for high resolution sensors (i.e. any EF Mark II generation L-series lens), you'll utilize the 7D to its fullest. It is not a great high ISO performer, but at all the ISO settings it does perform well at, the overall IQ should be no different in real terms than what you may get out of any better camera. You will, however, find that the 7D's limitations are greater than that of newer Canon cameras. It falters at higher ISO settings where the 5D III and 1D X shine. It's AF system lacks the consistency and accuracy of the new 61pt AF system.



Sharp detail eats noise for breakfast; Noise eats softness for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Maximize sharpness with high quality glass, and noise will quickly become a background issue with the 7D. Use inferior glass, and the limitations of both the glass and the 7D will even more quickly become readily apparent.

+1 to that! Totally agree. I use the 10-22 EF-S for landscapes and at magnifications close to 100% the 7D reveals that lens' limitations- loss of resolution away from centre frame, fine detail becoming more smeared and 'muddy' towards the edges. Not to say it is a bad lens, I love it for what it can do. To a lesser degree my 17-40 L used on the 7D has it's limitations revealed by the camera in a similar way. Of course really good wide angle lenses are harder to design than telephoto lenses. Using the 70-200 f4L IS or the 60 EF-S macro on the 7D shows what the sensor can really do- get it right and it rewards me with fantastic detail, and corner to corner as well.

Thing is, most of my photography is landscape. I don't have the money to go full frame at the moment, and I have often wondered how much better my landscape pictures would look with a FF body and decent lens. I suppose resolving fine- and often small - details in landscape scenarios is one of the toughest tests for a lens and sensor. Of course, it's true to say if I can't make the shot look good on the 7D, A FF body is not going to magically make my pictures look wonderful.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 05:35:50 AM by insanitybeard »
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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2013, 05:33:57 AM »