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Author Topic: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change  (Read 56788 times)

Don Haines

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #150 on: February 09, 2013, 10:02:34 PM »

What's "100% crop" video?
Daniel

There is a mode on the 60D where you can shoot 640x480 video taken from the 640x480 pixels at the center of the sensor. It's VERY usefull for image stacking in astrophotography....
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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #150 on: February 09, 2013, 10:02:34 PM »

jrista

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #151 on: February 09, 2013, 10:07:01 PM »
I'd go for a second CF card slot. Mixing card types, forcing the use of slower SD cards, is kind of useless. I'm rather bummed the 5D III includes mixed card slot types. Everyone who has tried to use the SD to save a second copy of the image written to the CF has experienced a significant loss in FPS.
You mean two CF card slots?!
Damn... Want to buy a dozen SD cards? :)

That operate at 1/4 to 1/3 the speed of my CF cards? I can get up to 1000x CF cards, vs. 600x SDXC cards. Not only that, CF cards have a much lower latency, and buffer clear time with CF is three to five times faster (4-7 seconds for CF, 20 seconds for SDXC.) Even with the best of the best SDXC cards, they are still a slouch compared to even a moderate UDMA-7 CF card. I'll take the lower latency of CF at the same speed as an SD any day, even if it costs several times as much (although I'd say, given that I buy Transcend CF cards that have yet to fail me even once, the conversion rate is more like 3-4 SD cards per CF card, at mot.)
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Hillsilly

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #152 on: February 09, 2013, 10:42:13 PM »
If it is up for a vote, I'm backing mixed card slots.  SD cards might not be the fastest or most secure, but they are universally available.  Every supermarket, tourist attraction and smaller camera shooter carries SD cards.  And they're cheap.  Plus nearly every laptop and tablet has a built in SD card reader.  Mixed card slots give you the CF card slot for speed and reliability and an SD card slot for those "OMG I forgot spare memory cards" moments.

Besides, I thought we were almost at the point where memory card speed wasn't having a significant impact on camera FPS or buffers?
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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #153 on: February 09, 2013, 11:51:16 PM »
I'd go for a second CF card slot. Mixing card types, forcing the use of slower SD cards, is kind of useless. I'm rather bummed the 5D III includes mixed card slot types. Everyone who has tried to use the SD to save a second copy of the image written to the CF has experienced a significant loss in FPS.
You mean two CF card slots?!
Damn... Want to buy a dozen SD cards? :)

That operate at 1/4 to 1/3 the speed of my CF cards? I can get up to 1000x CF cards, vs. 600x SDXC cards. Not only that, CF cards have a much lower latency, and buffer clear time with CF is three to five times faster (4-7 seconds for CF, 20 seconds for SDXC.) Even with the best of the best SDXC cards, they are still a slouch compared to even a moderate UDMA-7 CF card. I'll take the lower latency of CF at the same speed as an SD any day, even if it costs several times as much (although I'd say, given that I buy Transcend CF cards that have yet to fail me even once, the conversion rate is more like 3-4 SD cards per CF card, at mot.)
Shhh... Nobody's going to buy my SD cards if you say it out loud...  >:(
Seriously, didn't think there was so big a difference. What about camera size with two CF slots?

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #154 on: February 09, 2013, 11:54:05 PM »
7dMkII

Love to see:
Use of 1d series batteries and voltage for slightly faster AF with a grip.
Better high ISO performance
8-10 FPS
AF menus like 1dx/5d3
No built in flash
Grip with a thumb stick like the BG-E11
Viewfinder latch like 1D series
61 point AF would be nice but I feel 40-50 would do just fine if they were as sensitive as the 5d3/1Dx
Close to or on par with 1d Series weather sealing (with grip too!).
Why mess with my built-in flash wish?  :'(

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #155 on: February 10, 2013, 12:06:20 AM »
7dMkII

Love to see:
Use of 1d series batteries and voltage for slightly faster AF with a grip.
Better high ISO performance
8-10 FPS
AF menus like 1dx/5d3
No built in flash
Grip with a thumb stick like the BG-E11
Viewfinder latch like 1D series
61 point AF would be nice but I feel 40-50 would do just fine if they were as sensitive as the 5d3/1Dx
Close to or on par with 1d Series weather sealing (with grip too!).
Why mess with my built-in flash wish?  :'(

Weather sealing=)

weixing

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #156 on: February 10, 2013, 01:34:44 AM »

What's "100% crop" video?
Daniel

There is a mode on the 60D where you can shoot 640x480 video taken from the 640x480 pixels at the center of the sensor. It's VERY usefull for image stacking in astrophotography....
   Also very good for taking video clip of small birds or birds that are far away...

   Have a nice day.

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #156 on: February 10, 2013, 01:34:44 AM »

jrista

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #157 on: February 10, 2013, 02:29:43 AM »
I'd go for a second CF card slot. Mixing card types, forcing the use of slower SD cards, is kind of useless. I'm rather bummed the 5D III includes mixed card slot types. Everyone who has tried to use the SD to save a second copy of the image written to the CF has experienced a significant loss in FPS.
You mean two CF card slots?!
Damn... Want to buy a dozen SD cards? :)

That operate at 1/4 to 1/3 the speed of my CF cards? I can get up to 1000x CF cards, vs. 600x SDXC cards. Not only that, CF cards have a much lower latency, and buffer clear time with CF is three to five times faster (4-7 seconds for CF, 20 seconds for SDXC.) Even with the best of the best SDXC cards, they are still a slouch compared to even a moderate UDMA-7 CF card. I'll take the lower latency of CF at the same speed as an SD any day, even if it costs several times as much (although I'd say, given that I buy Transcend CF cards that have yet to fail me even once, the conversion rate is more like 3-4 SD cards per CF card, at mot.)
Shhh... Nobody's going to buy my SD cards if you say it out loud...  >:(
Seriously, didn't think there was so big a difference. What about camera size with two CF slots?

It might add another millimeter. Personally, I wouldn't quibble about that if it meant I could dual-write to a backup to a second card simultaneously, though. ;)
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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #158 on: February 10, 2013, 02:42:30 PM »

That operate at 1/4 to 1/3 the speed of my CF cards? I can get up to 1000x CF cards, vs. 600x SDXC cards. Not only that, CF cards have a much lower latency, and buffer clear time with CF is three to five times faster (4-7 seconds for CF, 20 seconds for SDXC.) Even with the best of the best SDXC cards, they are still a slouch compared to even a moderate UDMA-7 CF card. I'll take the lower latency of CF at the same speed as an SD any day, even if it costs several times as much (although I'd say, given that I buy Transcend CF cards that have yet to fail me even once, the conversion rate is more like 3-4 SD cards per CF card, at mot.)

You are being generous with your estimate of SD card speeds.
The rated speeds for SD cards are only after a fresh low level format or when reading data.  Once the card has been written to and then formatted with the normal in camera format, write speeds seldom exceed 5-10 MB/sec, even if its a really fast rated card.  The issue is the time it takes to clear memory cells in order to write new data.  CF cards do this much faster.
 
Thats also why it is such a problem to use a CF and SD in the same camera and write to both.  If doing that, get a dozen fast SD cards and low level format them.  Then, after transferring and backing up your images, do a low level format.  this will substantially improve their write speeds and they will go from being almost useless for large Raw or video files to merely slow.

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #159 on: February 11, 2013, 02:55:29 AM »
I want mixed card slots; the only issue with the 5D3 is that it does not support UHS-I. 
The 5D3 only supports class 10 SD card speeds so it's limited to 10MB/s speeds, UHS-I (which is supported in the 6D) can do up to 50 or 104MB/s which is faster than the 40MB/s rated speed of the 266x CF card that I've used with my 7D without issue so as long as they continue to support UHS-1 in their new cameras I would love a mixed card slot.

But that not why I'm here, check this out:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/9586/is-the-cheap-nikon-d5200-a-better-option-than-d800-for-video-no-moire-aliasing-and-good-detail

The Nikon D5200 is supposedly; video morie free, sharper, has a wider dynamic range and rather clean at ISO 3200.  DxO is rating the noise just after its ISO 1600 mark (6D is rated just after ISO 3200 and the 7D was rated just after ISO 800) and in DPReviews new Studio Comparison photos for the D5200 it looks like it has less chroma noise too.  This is really exciting me about the potential of the 70D, Nikon (Toshiba) has proved it could be done and Canon now needs something to compete with the image quality in this $800 body.

dlleno

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #160 on: February 11, 2013, 04:43:02 AM »
I agree on the high end EF-S lenses. The most blatant omission at the moment is in the telephoto range. A competitor to Sigmas 50-150 HSM OS springs to mind, or a telephoto prime in the 200-500 range with the weight reduction advantage of EF-S. (not as probable though)

Releasing one such lens would also reinforce the marketing of 7D2 as a sports/wildlife camera...

 I'd suggest that Canon is deliberately yielding the lower-cost long glass market to third parties that are  targeting  the xxD and xxxD owners who may not realize the high demands upon glass that come with such high density sensors. 

For the camp who predicts that the 7D2 will truly be a "mid-level" camera (meaning priced near the midpoint between a rebel and a 1DX), the expression  "Future of Pro APS-C will change" means that the 7D2  will be a serious sports/wildlife Body.   Such a camera could be evidence of a Canon strategy for serious/pro APS-C wildlifers to either rent or own the long L glass that meets the build quality, resolution,  and weather sealing requirements of such a use case, as the reach/cost advantage is already realized in the form of the crop sensor itself. 

The increased demands of the higher density sensor would be incentive enough, for those who are aware and who care, to use L glass, knowing that they are taking advantage of the best portion of the image circle as well. 

If the 7D2 really targets the pro or semi-pro wildlife segment, then in my opinion Canon may assume that the 7D2 owner has a FF body as well (such as a 6D), or aspires to one, in which case there is no incentive to invest in EF-S glass at all.  Moreover, accepting the wildlife specialized use case, the "single body" 7D2 owner may in fact be content with covering the WA and UWA ranges without L build quality and weather sealing, i.e. with the fine lenses available today such as the  10-22. 

CanNotYet

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #161 on: February 11, 2013, 07:22:56 AM »
I'd suggest that Canon is deliberately yielding the lower-cost long glass market to third parties that are  targeting  the xxD and xxxD owners who may not realize the high demands upon glass that come with such high density sensors. 

For the camp who predicts that the 7D2 will truly be a "mid-level" camera (meaning priced near the midpoint between a rebel and a 1DX), the expression  "Future of Pro APS-C will change" means that the 7D2  will be a serious sports/wildlife Body.   Such a camera could be evidence of a Canon strategy for serious/pro APS-C wildlifers to either rent or own the long L glass that meets the build quality, resolution,  and weather sealing requirements of such a use case, as the reach/cost advantage is already realized in the form of the crop sensor itself. 

The increased demands of the higher density sensor would be incentive enough, for those who are aware and who care, to use L glass, knowing that they are taking advantage of the best portion of the image circle as well. 

If the 7D2 really targets the pro or semi-pro wildlife segment, then in my opinion Canon may assume that the 7D2 owner has a FF body as well (such as a 6D), or aspires to one, in which case there is no incentive to invest in EF-S glass at all.  Moreover, accepting the wildlife specialized use case, the "single body" 7D2 owner may in fact be content with covering the WA and UWA ranges without L build quality and weather sealing, i.e. with the fine lenses available today such as the  10-22.

You might be quite correct in that. But there ought to be some room for a EF-S telephoto lens with the inherent advantages of weight reduction from the shortcuts the lensmakers can take when designing for a smaller image circle. I am almost certain there will be something like this coming for the M-mount, and I think a conversion to EF-S would be easy, as the glass is for the same sensor size, and the difference is in the mount and flange distance as I understand it.

Anyways, a 300mm f2.8 for EF-S, at the weight as the 300 f4 or less? They could get away with a weather sealed plastic build (something like the 17-55 2.8 ) if done properly, and the price is right. (Yes, dreaming now, but...)  :)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 07:27:44 AM by CanNotYet »

neuroanatomist

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #162 on: February 11, 2013, 08:02:58 AM »
But there ought to be some room for a EF-S telephoto lens with the inherent advantages of weight reduction from the shortcuts the lensmakers can take when designing for a smaller image circle. I am almost certain there will be something like this coming for the M-mount, and I think a conversion to EF-S would be easy, as the glass is for the same sensor size, and the difference is in the mount and flange distance as I understand it.

Anyways, a 300mm f2.8 for EF-S, at the weight as the 300 f4 or less? They could get away with a weather sealed plastic build (something like the 17-55 2.8 ) if done properly, and the price is right. (Yes, dreaming now, but...)  :)

Smell that?  It's sweet-and-sour scent of optical physics and lens design waking you from your dream...  :P

A telephoto lens design places the 'virtual' aperture at or near the front element.  So, a 300/2.8 lens is going to need at least a ~107mm diameter front element to fill that aperture with light. That front element is going to be big and heavy, and need a strong frame to support it.  A smaller image circle would mean a slight reduction in some of the internal elements, but won't really make the lens smaller (or cheaper). 

There's a reason we don't see EF-S telephoto lenses (except one zoom that actually starts in the normal range and has a variable aperture, meaning a different lens design) - there's just no real advantage to a smaller image circle at long focal lengths.
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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #162 on: February 11, 2013, 08:02:58 AM »

Random Orbits

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #163 on: February 11, 2013, 09:18:59 AM »
Smell that?  It's sweet-and-sour scent of optical physics and lens design waking you from your dream...  :P

A telephoto lens design places the 'virtual' aperture at or near the front element.  So, a 300/2.8 lens is going to need at least a ~107mm diameter front element to fill that aperture with light. That front element is going to be big and heavy, and need a strong frame to support it.  A smaller image circle would mean a slight reduction in some of the internal elements, but won't really make the lens smaller (or cheaper). 

There's a reason we don't see EF-S telephoto lenses (except one zoom that actually starts in the normal range and has a variable aperture, meaning a different lens design) - there's just no real advantage to a smaller image circle at long focal lengths.
Why do we see extreme tele reach in some "superzoom" compact cameras? Do they only accomplish this through compromised IQ, or do they gain something from the small sensors used?

-h

Superzoom compact cameras tend to have small sensors.  For example, the Canon SX50 has 4.3-215mm f/3.5-6.5.  215/6.5 = 33mm so it can be compact.  The sensor is so small that it has an "equivalent" range of 24-1200, so the crop factor is around 5.6.  With such a small sensor,  high ISO performance will be poor and with such small maximum apertures, the shutter speeds will be low, which comprises IQ.

neuroanatomist

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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #164 on: February 11, 2013, 09:45:22 AM »
Why do we see extreme tele reach in some "superzoom" compact cameras? Do they only accomplish this through compromised IQ, or do they gain something from the small sensors used?

Ok, take the SX50 HS, FF-equivalent of 1200mm at the long end. But, it's not a 1200mm lens - it's a 215mm lens that's f/6.5 at the long end.  The small sensor gives a 215mm lens the FoV of a much longer lens used on a FF camera, but focal length is an intrinsic property of the lens.  The SX50 lens isn't a true telephoto design, but even if it were, that would mean only a 33mm diameter front element.
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Re: *UPDATE* EOS 70D is Coming, The Future of Pro APS-C Will Change
« Reply #164 on: February 11, 2013, 09:45:22 AM »