October 25, 2014, 01:35:31 AM

Author Topic: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014  (Read 44712 times)

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2013, 07:53:06 PM »
please put in an EVF :)

Oh dear god no!!! EVF = blocky, blotchy, gritty, grainy, posterized crapiness! Even the best of the best EVFs that offer 2600ppi are junk. Until EVFs are pumping out at least 5000ppi, preferably more (12,000ppi for people with 20/10 vision in a mirrorless-sized viewfinder box at 11mm eye relief), they aren't worth it. Until they offer 20 stops of DR, they aren't worth it. Until they have instantaneous update, no grain or banding in low light, and are gigantic in dimensions...they aren't worth it. Give me an OVF any day and I'll take it over an EVF. The addition of an EVF to any DSLR (note, DSLR...different from a mirrorless) would end my use of any brand that does that. A DSLR is an OPTICAL camera, keep it that way!!! People who like all their instantaneous, real-time, real-world optical bliss should not be forced to use an EVF because of the mirrorless mob.

Leave the EVFs to a whole new, separate, distinct, unique line of mirrorless cameras so people have a choice. Don't interfere with the tried and true, working great, ergonomically exquisite DSLR. PLEASE, OH GOD PLEASE, I BEG OF YOU, don't let Canon put an EVF into a DSLR.    :o

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2013, 07:53:06 PM »

Jesse

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2013, 08:38:18 PM »
"I'm much more likely to buy a 31 megapixel Medium Format Digital than a 40 megapixel Canon."

Probably an obvious answer, but shooting in a studio what would be the benefit of MF over a high-megapixel Canon? Wouldn't the Canon be able to print even larger than MF if there are more pixels?
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mkunert

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2013, 08:50:46 PM »
In other words (like I suspected) Nikon's D800 completely blindsided Canon.

So not to loose face and stem a possible hemorrhage of photographers into Nikon's camp, Canon releases disinformation rumors.

First:  We may be releasing a high MB camera soon.
Second:  Uh, we STILL haven't released a high MB camera because it's taking longer because it's neeeewwwwwww sensor technology.
Third:  We have to upgrade the lens first.

Last one really amuses me because it implies that Canon lens suck compared to Nikon.  Nikon didn't need to upgrade their lens for people to instantly see massive benefit from the D800.  Will a whole new slew of Canon lens be needed to see a difference with Canon new high MB camera?

Sad.

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2013, 08:52:00 PM »
please put in an EVF :)

Oh dear god no!!! EVF = blocky, blotchy, gritty, grainy, posterized crapiness! Even the best of the best EVFs that offer 2600ppi are junk. Until EVFs are pumping out at least 5000ppi, preferably more (12,000ppi for people with 20/10 vision in a mirrorless-sized viewfinder box at 11mm eye relief), they aren't worth it. Until they offer 20 stops of DR, they aren't worth it. Until they have instantaneous update, no grain or banding in low light, and are gigantic in dimensions...they aren't worth it. Give me an OVF any day and I'll take it over an EVF. The addition of an EVF to any DSLR (note, DSLR...different from a mirrorless) would end my use of any brand that does that. A DSLR is an OPTICAL camera, keep it that way!!! People who like all their instantaneous, real-time, real-world optical bliss should not be forced to use an EVF because of the mirrorless mob.

Leave the EVFs to a whole new, separate, distinct, unique line of mirrorless cameras so people have a choice. Don't interfere with the tried and true, working great, ergonomically exquisite DSLR. PLEASE, OH GOD PLEASE, I BEG OF YOU, don't let Canon put an EVF into a DSLR.    :o

+1.

Also, someone mentioned a new 50, which to me implied a new L-level 50, as opposed to a replacement of the 50 1.4 (which also needs an update, and I'm waiting for before moving up from the plastic fantastic). This would make my day- I'd buy the current 50L in a heartbeat as soon as the price dropped because there was a newer version...
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RS2021

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2013, 09:08:55 PM »
In other words (like I suspected) Nikon's D800 completely blindsided Canon.

So not to loose face and stem a possible hemorrhage of photographers into Nikon's camp, Canon releases disinformation rumors.

First:  We may be releasing a high MB camera soon.
Second:  Uh, we STILL haven't released a high MB camera because it's taking longer because it's neeeewwwwwww sensor technology.
Third:  We have to upgrade the lens first.

Last one really amuses me because it implies that Canon lens suck compared to Nikon.  Nikon didn't need to upgrade their lens for people to instantly see massive benefit from the D800.  Will a whole new slew of Canon lens be needed to see a difference with Canon new high MB camera?

Sad.

Only massive benefit I think for Nikonians was the pukey green hue that D800 had. But welcome to the forum anyways :)

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RS2021

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2013, 09:16:28 PM »
@mkunert, and let's not forget the Nikon executives categorically stating their crop DX sensors were the future and Full frame had no relevance in the digital world...and once canon whipped their heiny with the 1 series and 5D...they played in the sandbox with their tail between their legs...periodically letting out a sad whimpering moan. ;)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 09:18:08 PM by Ray2021 »
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jrista

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2013, 09:45:10 PM »
In other words (like I suspected) Nikon's D800 completely blindsided Canon.

So not to loose face and stem a possible hemorrhage of photographers into Nikon's camp, Canon releases disinformation rumors.

First:  We may be releasing a high MB camera soon.
Second:  Uh, we STILL haven't released a high MB camera because it's taking longer because it's neeeewwwwwww sensor technology.
Third:  We have to upgrade the lens first.

Last one really amuses me because it implies that Canon lens suck compared to Nikon.  Nikon didn't need to upgrade their lens for people to instantly see massive benefit from the D800.  Will a whole new slew of Canon lens be needed to see a difference with Canon new high MB camera?

Sad.

Keep in mind, a lot of nikon users have complained about softness with high-MP sensors. Also keep in mind that Nikons FF sensors are LOWER density than Canon;s 18mp APS-C sensor, and that includes the D800's 36.3mp sensor. Canon is not just updating lenses to support 47mp FF senors...they are paving the way for the next decade or two of sensors. If anyone thinks we are going to stop at 50mp, I think they have another thing coming....I bet we see 60, even 70mp sensors within a decade. Canon glass has been good enough for higher density sensors than the D800's for years. The new Mark II generation of 4-stop IS lenses will be good enough for sensors 10 years from now (with possibly an IS update and maybe a Fluorite element mod to reduce weight five years from now.)

A lot of Nikon class (and I mean most of it...there are only a very few exclusions here) is not quite or only barely good enough for the D800. Nikon is really due to upgrade a lot of their lenses to support higher resolution sensors as well. They just haven't gone quite as far as Canon did with the 18mp APS-C yet (except in the case of the D3200, which is a 24mp APS-C). If Nikon went for a 45 or 50mp sensor at some point in the future, which I doubt they will do for a few years yet, they would very likely be in the same boat as Canon.

Personally, I'll take Canon Mark II glass over anything else, including Zeiss or Nikkor, any day any time. It brings out the best in my still very high density 7D, and then some. The most phenomenal lenses I've ever laid eyes on, or had the pleasure to use. Light as feathers, AF fast as bats out of hell, and have the best IS one could hope for (imagine getting a 1/20th second hand-held shot out of a 500mm lens!)

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2013, 09:45:10 PM »

Don Haines

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2013, 10:22:47 PM »
please put in an EVF :)

Oh dear god no!!! EVF = blocky, blotchy, gritty, grainy, posterized crapiness!

I think you missed the smily face.... but then again, perhaps it is high megapixel EVF :)  :)
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2013, 10:26:20 PM »
quite interesting, do you guys think they started development after the d800 was announced ( or they found out some months prior to it's release).

I would have expected canon to ''rush'' it and try to release one mid/late 2013.

I think they realize they need a new process sensor in any 1DXs or 5D4 and releasing those in 2013 just to replace them again in 2014....

They got too complacent bragging about how they were at least a decade ahead of Nikon for FF and got caught by Nikon, they tried to bleed their old fabs overly long and are simply stuck with no response until they get new fabs and processes and tech going again, which takes time (which is why some of us were screaming about sensor tech a number of years ago, i.e., so it would've been ready now and not another two years out).

Anyway I'd rather it arrives 2014 than a rushed job 2013 release with old tech and I'd also rather 5D4 come sooner rather than 3-3.5 years between as last time so at this point in time I can't fault any of it.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 10:51:13 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2013, 10:30:02 PM »
The big megapixel prototype from Canon is outstanding in image quality, a little bit to slow for me, but the bottle neck are some lenses.

No, the bottleneck is they got way too king of the hill complacent and let the market guys hold back the engineers so as to milk old tech for too long. Lenses are a ridiculous excuse what with the 24-70 II, 70-200 2.8 II, super-tele II which are all best in class.

Quote
After my mail to the Canon development department a week ago they are now very hectic and want to accelerate their developments.

??? You are claiming that they still had no planes for new sensors or MP and only now, after an email from you last week....   ;D

(and I pray you didn't suggest they forget about new process sensors in favor of rushing the same old in high MP form out.... and more so that if you that they are NOT listening and becoming hectic)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 10:51:35 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

Lee Jay

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2013, 10:31:45 PM »
However, my point was that I don't see why people say that the high MP FF requires a new line of lenses when the existing lenses (including the 500 f4, no II) work well on the 7D, which has the same pixel density as the new high MP FF is rumored to have.

Because the 7D's pixel density from a radius of 13.5mm to 21.6mm is zero.

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2013, 10:44:10 PM »
Jrista wrote;  However, the current approach to ADC taken by all manufacturers except Sony.

There are Panasonic with row wise ADC as Sony   , there are Aptina and Toshiba with ADC at the sensor chip with different solutions. Every 10 row in Aptina sensor as one  example
Sony has no over all patens regarding row wise ADC at the sensors edge.

And about Canons 120Mp sensor  do you mean that Canon has ADC at the sensor chip

I am not talking about "row-wise" in general. I am talking quite explicitly about Sony's CP-ADC w/ Digital CDS, which is an ADC for every single column that performs a refresh readout, negative read and register for each pixel, then full sensor read on top of the negative registration to produce a near-noiseless image. THAT is the genius behind Exmor, and why it performs better than every other sensor on the market.

Row-wise ADC is not the same, as it is just a form of bucketed parallel readout. It still has the potential (and frequently realizes that potential) to produce banding. Canon also has patents for bucketed parallel on-die ADC readout. According the the patents I've read recently, it is not row-wise but clock wise. Not really sure how that affects read noise or banding (I suspect a light hatching is probably the result), but it isn't much different than row-wise on-die ADC.

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2013, 10:47:44 PM »
In other words (like I suspected) Nikon's D800 completely blindsided Canon.

So not to loose face and stem a possible hemorrhage of photographers into Nikon's camp, Canon releases disinformation rumors.

First:  We may be releasing a high MB camera soon.
Second:  Uh, we STILL haven't released a high MB camera because it's taking longer because it's neeeewwwwwww sensor technology.
Third:  We have to upgrade the lens first.

Last one really amuses me because it implies that Canon lens suck compared to Nikon.  Nikon didn't need to upgrade their lens for people to instantly see massive benefit from the D800.  Will a whole new slew of Canon lens be needed to see a difference with Canon new high MB camera?

Sad.

Keep in mind, a lot of nikon users have complained about softness with high-MP sensors. Also keep in mind that Nikons FF sensors are LOWER density than Canon;s 18mp APS-C sensor, and that includes the D800's 36.3mp sensor. Canon is not just updating lenses to support 47mp FF senors...they are paving the way for the next decade or two of sensors. If anyone thinks we are going to stop at 50mp, I think they have another thing coming....I bet we see 60, even 70mp sensors within a decade. Canon glass has been good enough for higher density sensors than the D800's for years. The new Mark II generation of 4-stop IS lenses will be good enough for sensors 10 years from now (with possibly an IS update and maybe a Fluorite element mod to reduce weight five years from now.)

A lot of Nikon class (and I mean most of it...there are only a very few exclusions here) is not quite or only barely good enough for the D800. Nikon is really due to upgrade a lot of their lenses to support higher resolution sensors as well. They just haven't gone quite as far as Canon did with the 18mp APS-C yet (except in the case of the D3200, which is a 24mp APS-C). If Nikon went for a 45 or 50mp sensor at some point in the future, which I doubt they will do for a few years yet, they would very likely be in the same boat as Canon.

Personally, I'll take Canon Mark II glass over anything else, including Zeiss or Nikkor, any day any time. It brings out the best in my still very high density 7D, and then some. The most phenomenal lenses I've ever laid eyes on, or had the pleasure to use. Light as feathers, AF fast as bats out of hell, and have the best IS one could hope for (imagine getting a 1/20th second hand-held shot out of a 500mm lens!)

Would you please pass along a reference to where you got the "Keep in mind, a lot of nikon users have complained about softness with high-MP sensors." business.  I've shot Canon for a number of years and I thought I was producing highly detailed landscapes.  But when I shot the D800 and D800E with even the Nikon 24-70 zoom, the camera and lens combination blew away my Canon 24-70 (mark 1).  If anyone is complaining of softness with a D800 I would like to know which lens and what the setup was.  I shoot landscapes with a tripod in live view and I am very happy with the Nikon difference in all fine details, and what I can do with shadow detail in post. 

As far as the 18MB APS-C having smaller pixels than the D800 that may be true.  Check out the "big" pixels on the D600 full frame.  Very nice.  Compare IQ on the 7Dmk2 with what samples from the new D5200.  I suspect we'll soon see a 24mp D7000.  Canon needs to step up their sensor game before this game gets away from them.

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2013, 10:47:44 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2013, 10:52:55 PM »
Interesting about a quicker sideband "refresh" of the 5D line. I wonder if that is because Canon is finally ready to move to a newer 180nm process, and want to get all of their cameras on it sooner rather than later. I, for one, would happily spend a few grand on a high MP, high frame rate, 5D X (or whatever it ends up being called) if it had reduced read noise and competitive DR (i.e. at least 13 stops).
I can see that you want such a product (dont we all), but what makes you think it will be high framerate? "Big megapixel camera" makes me think that it is to be a D800/MF killer for landscapes/macro, and that framerate/AF/high-ISO will be less prioritized.

Well D800 already does 4fps at 36MP in 2012 so two years later it is not crazy to think you can get a 6fps 39MP 5D4.

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2013, 10:55:50 PM »
Interesting about a quicker sideband "refresh" of the 5D line. I wonder if that is because Canon is finally ready to move to a newer 180nm process, and want to get all of their cameras on it sooner rather than later. I, for one, would happily spend a few grand on a high MP, high frame rate, 5D X (or whatever it ends up being called) if it had reduced read noise and competitive DR (i.e. at least 13 stops).
I can see that you want such a product (dont we all), but what makes you think it will be high framerate? "Big megapixel camera" makes me think that it is to be a D800/MF killer for landscapes/macro, and that framerate/AF/high-ISO will be less prioritized.

I think it will be high frame rate because high frame rate is what Canon does better than anyone else. I have also been poring over Canon patents for the last month, and they seem to have quite a number of parallel readout and parallel pixel processing patents for high speed readout of high megapixel count sensors. Canon has also prototyped a 120mp sensor with a 9.5fps readout rate using some combination of block and row/column parallel readout and on-die image processing.

I see no reason why that technology could not be applied to a "measly" 30-40mp FF sensor to achieve at least 6-8fps. I also see no reason why ISO range would have to suffer. High ISO capabilities are not mutually exclusive with low ISO capabilities. On the contrary, high ISO is limited by physics, while low ISO is limited by electronic noise sources. Canons maximum well capacity is already more than high enough to fully exploit 14 bit data, as well as fully exploit 16 bit data...the only thing in the way is their high read noise. That could be solved with a parallel digital readout approach that applies digital noise reduction similar to Sony. If Canon solves the noise problem, they could easily have both quality high and quality low ISO performance.

Thanks for your post, jrista.

Now THAT sounds logical... and promising!

I keep my hopes up.  Currently a happy 7D user, but always looking to technological advances helping my  future photography.

Paul

It does sound logical and promising to the extreme. I just hope Canon is seeing it that way. The signs point that they might be, OTOH they haven't actually directly shown much to hope that though and delays and all might be not due to what we hope. I think that he is right about that, but I do fear a touch that I might end up disappointed.


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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2013, 10:55:50 PM »