December 21, 2014, 05:46:30 AM

Author Topic: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014  (Read 47849 times)

Ricku

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #105 on: February 10, 2013, 05:55:58 PM »
If they do have some much better sensors coming out then I'd bet you the 5D3 will be replaced in less time than 5D2 to 5D3. If anything, I think it would be laughable to think otherwise (unless they also shift it a bit and give it a different name than the 5D4, but whatever it gets called no way it will take as long as 5D2 to 5D3 did or even 5D to 5D2 time). I'd be shocked if it doesn't arrive 2014 (two years vs 3.5 and 3 years).
Exactly!

And the longer they take, the more they'll have to do to catch up.

Nikon and Sony aren't resting on their laurels, just because Canon has fallen behind. By 2014, the D4x and D900 will likely be on the horizon, as well as whatever Sony decide to do with the 36MP Exmor or it's successor.

Tick tock, Canon. It is time to replace your decade-old sensor technology.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 05:57:47 PM by Ricku »

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #105 on: February 10, 2013, 05:55:58 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #106 on: February 10, 2013, 06:39:47 PM »
If they do have some much better sensors coming out...

Except...that's a pretty decent-sized IF.  More MP, yes, I'm sure that's coming...but I'd be surprised if that's what you mean by 'better'...
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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #107 on: February 10, 2013, 07:26:07 PM »

So Canon did all of this yet there are stories already about a quick replacement of the 5D3?

I am pretty sure that Canon was working on a replacement for the 5D3 before it was even released.... As to when, just remember that Canon has said that there will be no FF cameras anounced in 2013, so that means that the earliest announcement would be 2014... and who knows how much later the release date is.

The time is right to make the next leap ahead in technology... they are getting the lenses ready, they have introduced things like wifi remote control further and further up the chain... they have stated that a 7D2 will come out this year and will be revolutionary... my bet is the 7D will be the debut of new sensor and focusing technology and after lessons learned, the FF's get it.

Canon is a conservative company. The flagship models don't get features until they are well debuged and profesionals have had time to get used to them and comment on thier use. They try to keep those flagship models super reliable..... that's one of the reasons pro's buy them... they can rely on them to work with no surprises. For example, show me a canon "pro" camera with a touchscreen.... it's an advanced feature avaliable on 6D, rebels, point/shoots, and even the dreaded iPhone... but have they had sufficient feedback to put it in a pro camera yet..
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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #108 on: February 10, 2013, 08:03:18 PM »
So Canon did all of this yet there are stories already about a quick replacement of the 5D3? Well, that tells you how important that list of "improvements" that you listed is, doesn't it?

It tells me nothing. There have been 'stories' of a new 100-400L for what...7-8 years?  There have even been at least two patents. Where's the lens? Stories.

As for a 5DIII 'replacement', I'd say BS and wishful thinking.  Many of the people clamoring for a high MP camera from Canon don't want to pay the price for a 1-series body, and from such dreams, rumors are born.

Let me put this another way. If I pick up and use a 5D Mark III, what am I going to notice as being significantly better aside from the AF? Nothing. What do I see as being better when I look at the images on my computer? Nothing.

So $800 or $900 more for improved AF.

Sorry, I completely disagree with that conclusion.  With a few notable (and *cough* vociferous) minority exceptions, the consensus was that the sensor-based IQ of the 5DII was excellent - it wasn't broke, and Canon didn't fix it.  Because of that excellent IQ, many people used the 5DII for tasks for which it's not ideal.  There's a reason I and a whole bunch of other people had both a 5DII and a 7D.  What Canon did with the 5DIII was, IMO, huge.  They took a camera with already excellent IQ, and improved substantially on the overall performance. 

For 5DII tripod-only, ISO 100 shooters, I can see the incremental nature of the upgrade. But if that's you, the answer is simple - keep your 5DII.

You state, "If I pick up and use a 5D Mark III...," which I take to mean you haven't.

After a couple years shooting a 7D and a 5DII, when I tried out a 5DIII what I immediately noticed was that it felt 'fast'. For example, the difference between the ~200 ms shutter lag of the 5DII and the ~100 ms lag of the 5DIII is very apparent.  My overall impression of the 5DIII is that using it feels like using a 7D from a performance standpoint, and it delivers the IQ of the 5DII - that's a powerful combination, and whereas the 5DII was liked (almost exclusively) for its IQ, the 5DIII is, IMO, the best all-around dSLR on the market.
Now we're just waiting for a couple of other guys to step in and digging down in the DR discussion even deeper.

I have a 5D3, my previous body was a 60D so I can't compare it against the 5D2. Also, I am an amateur and I'm still learning new stuff every day so for me the 5D3 is much more camera than I actually 'need' today. BUT it's a brilliant piece of equipment thanks to it's all-around capabilities. A friend of my who is about on the same skill level as I bought a D800: He takes a lot of nice pictures, but many are our of focus, he complains to me that the camera feels slow. But when subjects are standing still and other conditions are perfect he can capture great images. I just seem to get the 5D3 out and it performs every time. Shadow details, yes I know he gets better performance there, but it doesn't really matter when the main subject is out of focus.

Both of us are helping each other, inspiring each other to learn more and try new things. It's a very fruitful but still a bit competitive friendship which is fun.

Some people could be more mature in discussing the differences between these two awesome brands, I think that would make for a more productive debate. I mean, who can really hate a 60D??? I've even read that the 5D3 is useless, that's a very bold statement.

Ricku

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #109 on: February 10, 2013, 08:16:31 PM »
I've even read that the 5D3 is useless, that's a very bold statement.
Not bold at all, if it comes from a 5D2 owner who mainly shoots studio work, or tripod based landscapes (99% of photos below ISO 200).

For us, the 5D3 is a rather 'useless' camera in terms of upgrade. We don't need 61 pt AF, more speed, or gimmicks like rate button and in camera HDR. What we need is improvement in IQ, more resolution, more low ISO dynamic range, and a 100% fix for the horrible and well known pattern noise in shadow areas.

To the sports crowd, journalists or people upgrading from the 5DC, 7D and rebel-crowd, I am sure the 5D3 is a great upgrade. :)

« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 08:31:09 PM by Ricku »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #110 on: February 10, 2013, 08:25:00 PM »
For the 5DC, 7D and rebel-crowd, I'm sure the 5D3 is a great upgrade. :)

...and for the 5DII crowd who shoot things that move.  ;)
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Ricku

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #111 on: February 10, 2013, 08:29:34 PM »
For the 5DC, 7D and rebel-crowd, I'm sure the 5D3 is a great upgrade. :)

...and for the 5DII crowd who shoot things that move.  ;)
Edited.  :-X :'(

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #111 on: February 10, 2013, 08:29:34 PM »

Hobby Shooter

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #112 on: February 10, 2013, 08:33:56 PM »
I've even read that the 5D3 is useless, that's a very bold statement.
Not bold at all, if it comes from a 5D2 owner who mainly shoots studio work, or tripod based landscapes (99% of photos below ISO 200).

For us, the 5D3 is a rather 'useless' camera in terms of upgrade. We don't need 61 pt AF, more speed, or gimmicks like rate button and in camera HDR. What we need is improvement in IQ, more resolution, more low ISO dynamic range, and a 100% fix for the horrible and well known pattern noise in shadow areas.

To the sport crowd, journalists and photogs upgrading from the 5DC, 7D and rebel-crowd, I am sure the 5D3 is a great upgrade. :)
I understand what you mean, but then those should say, like you do now, as an upgrade it didn't live up to my expectations. That goes for a more mature and sensible debate. Canon might actually have made a mistake with the 5D3 as they listened to many of their 5D2 customers and designed the 5D3 against those demands. But for me it works well.  And yes, I am actually very happy with the 61 pt AF, it gives me a lot of precision when composing a picture, I thought it was overkill when I moved from my 60D but now I almost couldn't live without it (bit of an exaggeration)

For the 5DC, 7D and rebel-crowd, I'm sure the 5D3 is a great upgrade. :)

...and for the 5DII crowd who shoot things that move.  ;)
Yep  ;D
I shoot alot of golf and although the subject is stationary there is still alot of movement in that. Then I do a lot of street photography, you do need fast AF in those environments.

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #113 on: February 10, 2013, 08:59:12 PM »
So Canon did all of this yet there are stories already about a quick replacement of the 5D3? Well, that tells you how important that list of "improvements" that you listed is, doesn't it?

It tells me nothing. There have been 'stories' of a new 100-400L for what...7-8 years?  There have even been at least two patents. Where's the lens? Stories.

As for a 5DIII 'replacement', I'd say BS and wishful thinking.  Many of the people clamoring for a high MP camera from Canon don't want to pay the price for a 1-series body, and from such dreams, rumors are born.

Don't be so fixed on megapixels as being the only problem that needs attention.

What needs addressing is IQ. A combination of more megapixels and improvements in noise, DR, etc, is what is sought.

In essence, this is what the entire Canon community (apart from a few deniers such as yourself) seem to be saying - a new camera that costs $800-$900 more but my pictures are pretty much the same as before. WTF?

Quote
Let me put this another way. If I pick up and use a 5D Mark III, what am I going to notice as being significantly better aside from the AF? Nothing. What do I see as being better when I look at the images on my computer? Nothing.

So $800 or $900 more for improved AF.

Sorry, I completely disagree with that conclusion.  With a few notable (and *cough* vociferous) minority exceptions, the consensus was that the sensor-based IQ of the 5DII was excellent - it wasn't broke, and Canon didn't fix it.  Because of that excellent IQ, many people used the 5DII for tasks for which it's not ideal.  There's a reason I and a whole bunch of other people had both a 5DII and a 7D.  What Canon did with the 5DIII was, IMO, huge.  They took a camera with already excellent IQ, and improved substantially on the overall performance. 

For 5DII tripod-only, ISO 100 shooters, I can see the incremental nature of the upgrade. But if that's you, the answer is simple - keep your 5DII.

You state, "If I pick up and use a 5D Mark III...," which I take to mean you haven't.

After a couple years shooting a 7D and a 5DII, when I tried out a 5DIII what I immediately noticed was that it felt 'fast'. For example, the difference between the ~200 ms shutter lag of the 5DII and the ~100 ms lag of the 5DIII is very apparent.

From the ones I've picked up in stores, I've not noticed any difference. If I pick up a stop watch and time 1/10th of a second vs 1/20th of a second, it is almost impossible to do manually because the resolution of my finger pressing ability is not that fine.

Quote
My overall impression of the 5DIII is that using it feels like using a 7D from a performance standpoint, and it delivers the IQ of the 5DII - that's a powerful combination, and whereas the 5DII was liked (almost exclusively) for its IQ, the 5DIII is, IMO, the best all-around dSLR on the market.

Except that for the price the IQ is very very ordinary.

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #114 on: February 10, 2013, 09:29:53 PM »
So Canon did all of this yet there are stories already about a quick replacement of the 5D3? Well, that tells you how important that list of "improvements" that you listed is, doesn't it?

It tells me nothing. There have been 'stories' of a new 100-400L for what...7-8 years?  There have even been at least two patents. Where's the lens? Stories.

As for a 5DIII 'replacement', I'd say BS and wishful thinking.  Many of the people clamoring for a high MP camera from Canon don't want to pay the price for a 1-series body, and from such dreams, rumors are born.

Don't be so fixed on megapixels as being the only problem that needs attention.

What needs addressing is IQ. A combination of more megapixels and improvements in noise, DR, etc, is what is sought.

In essence, this is what the entire Canon community (apart from a few deniers such as yourself) seem to be saying - a new camera that costs $800-$900 more but my pictures are pretty much the same as before. WTF?

No, what the Canon community here on CR (and, I would argue, the photographic community at large given how many 5D III's have sold) is saying is that IQ is not solely the domain of the image sensor. There are other aspects of IQ as well. The AF system is indeed a very significant factor that assists photographers in maximizing IQ. The increase in frame rate is another significant factor in maximizing IQ. The best sensor in the world doesn't matter a wit if its AF system and frame rate are low enough such that you can't actually capture the one frame where everything is still and sharp...a soft frame is a soft frame, regardless of whether the sensor pumps out beautifully soft pixels or not.

Sure, read noise is an issue in the sense that it limits DR, however that is only an issue at the lowest few ISO settings. Compared to cameras two generations ago, which frequently topped out at 6-9 stops of DR, Canon cameras offering 11-12 stops is still quite good. Hell, even the top of the line medium format cameras still offer less than 12 stops of DR. Having 13-14 stops of DR is still rather new, and requires the absolute latest and greatest 180nm technology to achieve, and only matters at the very lowest ISO settings.

I'd offer that there are far more photographers who shoot high action in one form or another who use ISO settings 800 and above than photographers who shoot still scenes or low action and use ISO settings 400 and below. To the greater majority of photographers, the AF system and frame rate are critical factors to attaining the IQ they require. To that end, I'd say Canon did well by their customers, and clearly listened to what their customers were asking for...less megapixels, higher ISO, less noise at higher ISO (hell, even I asked for that!!! :D)

Quote
Let me put this another way. If I pick up and use a 5D Mark III, what am I going to notice as being significantly better aside from the AF? Nothing. What do I see as being better when I look at the images on my computer? Nothing.

So $800 or $900 more for improved AF.

Sorry, I completely disagree with that conclusion.  With a few notable (and *cough* vociferous) minority exceptions, the consensus was that the sensor-based IQ of the 5DII was excellent - it wasn't broke, and Canon didn't fix it.  Because of that excellent IQ, many people used the 5DII for tasks for which it's not ideal.  There's a reason I and a whole bunch of other people had both a 5DII and a 7D.  What Canon did with the 5DIII was, IMO, huge.  They took a camera with already excellent IQ, and improved substantially on the overall performance. 

For 5DII tripod-only, ISO 100 shooters, I can see the incremental nature of the upgrade. But if that's you, the answer is simple - keep your 5DII.

You state, "If I pick up and use a 5D Mark III...," which I take to mean you haven't.

After a couple years shooting a 7D and a 5DII, when I tried out a 5DIII what I immediately noticed was that it felt 'fast'. For example, the difference between the ~200 ms shutter lag of the 5DII and the ~100 ms lag of the 5DIII is very apparent.

From the ones I've picked up in stores, I've not noticed any difference. If I pick up a stop watch and time 1/10th of a second vs 1/20th of a second, it is almost impossible to do manually because the resolution of my finger pressing ability is not that fine.

Perhaps your finger-pressing ability is not that fine, however our minds can indeed sense minute differences. Our ability to measure time perceptually is not limited to 1-second increments, and even if we cannot send an impulse from our brains to our fingers in 1/20th of a second, that does not mean we cannot sense the difference between 1/10th and 1/20th of a second. Especially in the context of a camera shutter...looking through the viewfinder, it is very easy to recognize a TWO-FOLD difference in shutter performance, especially when holding the shutter button down and watching frame after frame race past at nearly double the speed. I'll say that again...a TWO FOLD, FACTOR OF TWO, 100% or DOUBLE the difference in shutter speed...relatively speaking, that is a huge difference!

Quote
My overall impression of the 5DIII is that using it feels like using a 7D from a performance standpoint, and it delivers the IQ of the 5DII - that's a powerful combination, and whereas the 5DII was liked (almost exclusively) for its IQ, the 5DIII is, IMO, the best all-around dSLR on the market.

Except that for the price the IQ is very very ordinary.


What exactly is "ordinary IQ"? I think your generalizing a bit too much...

neuroanatomist

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #115 on: February 10, 2013, 09:55:08 PM »
Don't be so fixed on megapixels as being the only problem that needs attention.

What needs addressing is IQ. A combination of more megapixels and improvements in noise, DR, etc, is what is sought.

In essence, this is what the entire Canon community (apart from a few deniers such as yourself) seem to be saying - a new camera that costs $800-$900 more but my pictures are pretty much the same as before. WTF?

First, what makes you think I'm 'fixed on megapixels'?? I'm quite happy with the 18 MP that I have. Also, in case it escaped your notice, this rumor thread is about a high MP Canon body...no guarantee of better IQ, and as I alluded to earlier, high MP doesn't mean 'better'.

Second, I do take issue with your statements that Canon's current sensors are somehow 'bad'.  I'm not saying they're the best on the market, they're not...but implying they're sub-par is rather disingenuous.

Third, who the heck is 'the entire Canon community'?  I can only assume you're referring to the tiny minority of people here bitching about Canon's 'terribly low DR' and 'horrible, shot-destroying pattern noise.'  The 'Canon community' and in fact, the dSLR-buying community at large seems to be quite pleased with the 5DIII, and with Canon in general.  Have a look at Amazon.com's Top Rated dSLRs (note - top rated by customer reviews, not top selling, although Canon owns the top of that list, too).  The 5DIII tops the Top Rated list, and Canon holds the entire top 15.  Then we see Sony...but where's Nikon?  One Nikon camera in the top 20, a total of 5 in the top 40.  And the D800?  Based on customer feedback, it's not even in the Top 100 at all (the D4 and D700 are in the top 50, but only barely).  So I'd have to say WTF to your claim that 'the entire Canon community' is dissatisfied with the 5DIII.  A 'community' of about ten (excuse me, now about nine) naysayers here such as yourself, perhaps.
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moreorless

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #116 on: February 10, 2013, 10:50:44 PM »
Third, who the heck is 'the entire Canon community'?  I can only assume you're referring to the tiny minority of people here bitching about Canon's 'terribly low DR' and 'horrible, shot-destroying pattern noise.'  The 'Canon community' and in fact, the dSLR-buying community at large seems to be quite pleased with the 5DIII, and with Canon in general.  Have a look at Amazon.com's Top Rated dSLRs (note - top rated by customer reviews, not top selling, although Canon owns the top of that list, too).  The 5DIII tops the Top Rated list, and Canon holds the entire top 15.  Then we see Sony...but where's Nikon?  One Nikon camera in the top 20, a total of 5 in the top 40.  And the D800?  Based on customer feedback, it's not even in the Top 100 at all (the D4 and D700 are in the top 50, but only barely).  So I'd have to say WTF to your claim that 'the entire Canon community' is dissatisfied with the 5DIII.  A 'community' of about ten (excuse me, now about nine) naysayers here such as yourself, perhaps.

I'd say that the issue your dealing with is that the "Megapixel/DR" community tends to be the most vocal on the net. Partly I'd say because the serious landscape/macro market naturally tends to be a bit more "techy" and so involved in gear forums but mostly because these elements obviously count for more with the for the want of a better word "measurebators".

On this forum I'v no doubt most of those after more Megapixels/DR are in the first group but on the net as a whole I think the vast majority are in the latter. These are elements that can be tested to your hearts content shooting brick walls (or more likely looking at other peoples shots of brock walls for cameras you'll never own) where as the benefits of improved AF, FPS, weather sealing etc will be felt more when actually using a camera to take photos out in the world

Its not as if there isnt discontent on the Nikon side aswell though, head over to any Nikon forum and you'll find people bemoaning a lack of a true sucessor to the D700.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 10:53:54 PM by moreorless »

anthony11

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #117 on: February 10, 2013, 11:15:21 PM »
Yep.  The 50% faster frame rate
I see a lot of "up to" 6 fps, not just 6 fps, so I wonder what the weasel words are hiding. I also read that auto-AF-select is even slower and less useful than the 5D2's.
Quote
better sealing
I'm sure that both people shoot from inside waterfalls appreciate that.
Quote
better viewfinder
How is not being able to see what AF spot is selected "better"??
Quote
dual card slots
One CF slot.
Quote
shutter lag reduced by half
Welcome, but not along worth rebuying a body.
Quote
better metering
Pretty much everything has better metering than the 5D2.  Having to routinely shoot with EC +1 is an embarrassment.
Quote
better ergonomics
Vaguebook much?
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including a multicontroller on the grip
The pictures I find of the 5D3 show no such thing.  It'd be really awkward to hold if it did.
Quote
it does seem like Canon ignored everything but the AF.  Right.

The sensor is effectively identical to that in the 5D2, no high-ISO usability improvement, no improvement on low-ISO banding/shadow noise.  Note that having more aggressive default NR when saving to JPEG files does not qualify as a high-ISO improvement.

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #117 on: February 10, 2013, 11:15:21 PM »

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #118 on: February 10, 2013, 11:53:37 PM »
Don't be so fixed on megapixels as being the only problem that needs attention.

What needs addressing is IQ. A combination of more megapixels and improvements in noise, DR, etc, is what is sought.

In essence, this is what the entire Canon community (apart from a few deniers such as yourself) seem to be saying - a new camera that costs $800-$900 more but my pictures are pretty much the same as before. WTF?

First, what makes you think I'm 'fixed on megapixels'?? I'm quite happy with the 18 MP that I have. Also, in case it escaped your notice, this rumor thread is about a high MP Canon body...no guarantee of better IQ, and as I alluded to earlier, high MP doesn't mean 'better'.

Second, I do take issue with your statements that Canon's current sensors are somehow 'bad'.  I'm not saying they're the best on the market, they're not...but implying they're sub-par is rather disingenuous.

Third, who the heck is 'the entire Canon community'?  I can only assume you're referring to the tiny minority of people here bitching about Canon's 'terribly low DR' and 'horrible, shot-destroying pattern noise.'  The 'Canon community' and in fact, the dSLR-buying community at large seems to be quite pleased with the 5DIII, and with Canon in general.  Have a look at Amazon.com's Top Rated dSLRs (note - top rated by customer reviews, not top selling, although Canon owns the top of that list, too).  The 5DIII tops the Top Rated list, and Canon holds the entire top 15.  Then we see Sony...but where's Nikon?  One Nikon camera in the top 20, a total of 5 in the top 40.  And the D800?  Based on customer feedback, it's not even in the Top 100 at all (the D4 and D700 are in the top 50, but only barely).  So I'd have to say WTF to your claim that 'the entire Canon community' is dissatisfied with the 5DIII.  A 'community' of about ten (excuse me, now about nine) naysayers here such as yourself, perhaps.

Amen! +1

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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #119 on: February 11, 2013, 12:01:58 AM »
Yep.  The 50% faster frame rate
I see a lot of "up to" 6 fps, not just 6 fps, so I wonder what the weasel words are hiding. I also read that auto-AF-select is even slower and less useful than the 5D2's.
Quote
better sealing
I'm sure that both people shoot from inside waterfalls appreciate that.
Quote
better viewfinder
How is not being able to see what AF spot is selected "better"??
Quote
dual card slots
One CF slot.
Quote
shutter lag reduced by half
Welcome, but not along worth rebuying a body.
Quote
better metering
Pretty much everything has better metering than the 5D2.  Having to routinely shoot with EC +1 is an embarrassment.
Quote
better ergonomics
Vaguebook much?
Quote
including a multicontroller on the grip
The pictures I find of the 5D3 show no such thing.  It'd be really awkward to hold if it did.
Quote
it does seem like Canon ignored everything but the AF.  Right.

The sensor is effectively identical to that in the 5D2, no high-ISO usability improvement, no improvement on low-ISO banding/shadow noise.  Note that having more aggressive default NR when saving to JPEG files does not qualify as a high-ISO improvement.

You're under the utterly and completely clueless assumption that if you are a 5D2 owner, that the 5D3 is the next logical thing to buy.  Imagine being a 7D owner and then moving on to a 5D3.  The 5D3 is a 5D2 and 7D combined, and then actually extra than that.  But you're arguing that anybody claimed that the 5D3 had any IQ improvement over the 5D2.  Who claimed that?  Did anybody on this forum claim that or did I miss it?  The 5D3 has no IQ improvement over the 5D2.  Who cares??
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Re: Big Megapixel Camera in 2014
« Reply #119 on: February 11, 2013, 12:01:58 AM »