September 23, 2014, 04:53:52 PM

Author Topic: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?  (Read 6866 times)

RLPhoto

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2013, 10:50:12 AM »
Buy LEE or schnider optic.

If you're talking about schnEider :-> optics (B+W) - they are just releasing their 82mm nd filters, they much more expensive than Heliopan (probably early adopter's premium) and one of the above posts also states that b+w also has a color cast - so I went for the cheaper Heliopan w/o coating (it's not supposed to let through light after all).

I haven't noticed a 3000K shift in color with any of my B&W filters. Even my old cheapo colkin ND filters aren't that terrible, but then again I'm using the Pro-glass LEE and Schneider 4X4 & 4X6 GND & ND square filters.

You might want to look into a square system, Its fantastic.

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2013, 10:50:12 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2013, 11:51:52 AM »
Buy LEE or schnider optic.
If you're talking about schnEider :-> optics (B+W) - they are just releasing their 82mm nd filters, they much more expensive than Heliopan (probably early adopter's premium) and one of the above posts also states that b+w also has a color cast - so I went for the cheaper Heliopan w/o coating (it's not supposed to let through light after all).
Schneider has had an 82mm 10-stop ND for a while (in fact, when I bought it in 2011 they were the only game in town for an 82mm ND3.0 screw-in).  It does have a warming effect, you can see an example I posted in this thread.
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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2013, 04:20:00 PM »
I haven't noticed a 3000K shift in color with any of my B&W filters. Even my old cheapo colkin ND filters aren't that terrible, but then again I'm using the Pro-glass LEE and Schneider 4X4 & 4X6 GND & ND square filters.

You might want to look into a square system, Its fantastic.

In hindsight I should have went the big stopper route, though to be fair, the B+W was hardly a budget option.

I'm interested in the 3.0 filters you've used made by cokin, can't find these anywhere?
Had a look for the Schneider 3.0 filters as well, having bother finding them, other than as being sold under the sister B+W brand.  I could find the Schneider square filters at up to 1.8 ND, but not as high as 3.0.

Just interested in the comparison you've made between the colour shift on my B+W 3.0 (N.B. 1000 NDx, 10 stop, not 3 stop) and the similar cokin and schneider filters you've used.

Can you give me a link to the Cokin 3.0 ND (1000x, 10 stop) filter?  If they are as cast free as you say then I might end up getting one.


RLPhoto

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2013, 04:36:25 PM »
I haven't noticed a 3000K shift in color with any of my B&W filters. Even my old cheapo colkin ND filters aren't that terrible, but then again I'm using the Pro-glass LEE and Schneider 4X4 & 4X6 GND & ND square filters.

You might want to look into a square system, Its fantastic.

In hindsight I should have went the big stopper route, though to be fair, the B+W was hardly a budget option.

I'm interested in the 3.0 filters you've used made by cokin, can't find these anywhere?
Had a look for the Schneider 3.0 filters as well, having bother finding them, other than as being sold under the sister B+W brand.  I could find the Schneider square filters at up to 1.8 ND, but not as high as 3.0.

Just interested in the comparison you've made between the colour shift on my B+W 3.0 (N.B. 1000 NDx, 10 stop, not 3 stop) and the similar cokin and schneider filters you've used.

Can you give me a link to the Cokin 3.0 ND (1000x, 10 stop) filter?  If they are as cast free as you say then I might end up getting one.

The Big stopper is my only 10-stop ND, I haven't used it more than twice compared to my GND's. Haven't seen a 3000K color cast but perhaps more like 500K cooler.

Colkin and Schneider don't make ND's that dark but on the ones I do own, a 3000K shift I haven't seen but I've only had the .3-.6-.9 filters GND's before I ditched Colkin all together.

IE: My fav's.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/399443-REG/Schneider_68050656_4x5_65_Graduated_Neutral_Density.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/399272-REG/Schneider_68_056412_4x4_Neutral_Density_1_2.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/686370-REG/LEE_Filters_10_STOP_GLASS_4X4_4_x_4_Big.html
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 04:39:10 PM by RLPhoto »

Marsu42

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2013, 06:26:41 AM »
Schneider has had an 82mm 10-stop ND for a while (in fact, when I bought it in 2011 they were the only game in town for an 82mm ND3.0 screw-in).
Ok, in this case I was unable to find it for sale anywhere or simply forgot about it after seeing the price :-o

But concerning the original topic: I just stumbled across a link about "IR Pollution" that doesn't just result in a color cast but lower contrast, and this is said to be fixable with a combined ir/uv stop filter: http://www.leeduguid.com.au/blog/tips/bw-10-stop-nd-filter-nd-110/

However, this filter has a big drawback: "Interference filters do not work well with wide angle lenses; light rays entering at an angle cause differing color rendition, resulting in increasingly cyan corners. It should not be used on lenses with an angle of view wider than 60° (about 35mm on a full-frame 36 X 24mm sensor)."

brad goda

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2013, 06:37:19 AM »
like "hot mirror NDIR filters"

brad goda

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2013, 06:39:17 AM »
use Fuji ND filter behind the lens.

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2013, 06:39:17 AM »

brad goda

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2013, 07:30:40 AM »
yah they are expensive...
Fujifilm made an extensive selection of durable wratten filters in 100mm size... lasted longer  than the kodak filters but thin and flexible unlike Sinar acrylic 100mm filters... I know I have a full ND kit within my old filter kit... yah a whole pelican case full of blue yellow magenta cyan grads with holders from the good ol days ... like hundreds of dollars hand over fist of filters... glad my assist insisted NOT ebaying the case...

anyways if you can find fuji IR and ND maybe in Japan or EU... I am sure you can sandwich them together behind the lens...
should help with IR funk with ND but dont know about CA... UWA does create problems...

beginning of Digital we used to add blue 82, 80A 80B filters to take sensors into tungsten range...
we thought it was better than just pushing a button... how things have come so far... there are buttons for everything...(better blue sensitivity or overall better)
the old fisheye had internal filters... maybe canon will have to bring back something like this one day...

Marsu42

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2013, 07:31:24 AM »
like "hot mirror NDIR filters"
use Fuji ND filter behind the lens.

Thanks for the information - these two pieces (hot mirror + gelatin nd) seem to be a solution for my 17-40L and the combined ndir for other lenses - though both outside my current budget. So I'll see how the "plain" 3.0 nd filter performs in the summer with more ir radiation - but good to know what the alternatives are, but the ir polution really seems to be an issue: http://www.tiffen.com/press_release_Hot_Mirror_IRND.htm

Btw: This page has a good discussion on fixed/vari nd filters concerning ir & uv leakage: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/8/12/heliopan82mmnd

Quote
Magenta casts and ND filters are usually due to IR leakage in the filter. This is common, most strong filters let a lot of IR through, and most older cameras register that IR in the blue and red channels, making magenta. A good "hot mirror" IR filter should clear it right up. And it will improve your foliage colors, too.
Quote
Every camera responds differently to variable ND filters (crossed polarizers, whether you cross your own or use something like the Heliopan) and also to actual ND filters. ND filters "leak" a lot of IR light. That's why crossed polarizers are sometimes used as improvised IR filters. Crossed polarizers have an additional problems that a "normal" ND filter, a single piece of dyed glass, won't have, in that they also leak UV. Cameras have good IR/UV blocking filters inside, but when you do something like blocking 8 stops of visible light, the leaked UV and IR start to cause problems. IR typically shows as a magenta cast, UV as a blue cast.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 07:35:43 AM by Marsu42 »

neuroanatomist

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2013, 07:34:47 AM »
Doesn't have to be IR.  if you look at the transmission curve for the B+W 3.0, it starts to rise from 'neutral' at about 630nm.
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Marsu42

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2013, 07:44:15 AM »
Doesn't have to be IR.  if you look at the transmission curve for the B+W 3.0, it starts to rise from 'neutral' at about 630nm.

Um, is this the same with the Heliopan filter (I couldn't find the information through google, and the manufacturer seems to think otherwise)?

And if I understand you correctly you're saying "IR Polltution" cannot be a problem for these nd filters no matter the fuss about it :-o ? I'm asking because the websites I just read suggest that nd filters leak ir on long exposure shots no matter how the transmission curve is supposed to be, and the only and new (see tiffen 2008 press release) solution is a hot mirror filter.

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2013, 07:46:12 AM »
Doesn't have to be IR.  if you look at the transmission curve for the B+W 3.0, it starts to rise from 'neutral' at about 630nm.

ok whatever you say but cinema guys I know all have full line up of hot mirror IR ND filter kits.
I guess they have spent thousands for nothing.

what do i know... live and learn




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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2013, 07:48:31 AM »
marsu42
ok good you are finding the info to answer your problem! great info hunting!

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2013, 07:48:31 AM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2013, 08:02:10 AM »
Doesn't have to be IR.  if you look at the transmission curve for the B+W 3.0, it starts to rise from 'neutral' at about 630nm.

ok whatever you say but cinema guys I know all have full line up of hot mirror IR ND filter kits.
I guess they have spent thousands for nothing.

what do i know... live and learn

Ummm...ok.   :-\   My point was that it's important to know the transmission characteristics of your filter.  With a B+W 110 and an IR cut filter starting at 700nm, you've still got some increased transmission from 630-700nm. 
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Marsu42

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2013, 08:05:41 AM »
marsu42
ok good you are finding the info to answer your problem! great info hunting!

Thanks :-) and maybe no surprise the manufacturer doesn't say: shooting with this filter will generate a color cast and lower contrast in high ir conditions, but you have to pay a *lot* more for the solution that fixes it and our stacked solution won't work for wide angle lenses at all so go and look elsewhere :-o

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Re: How to reduce the nd filter warm color cast?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2013, 08:05:41 AM »