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Author Topic: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor  (Read 21929 times)

Normalnorm

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2013, 01:37:46 PM »
It seems that it may have a real application in a 3 chip camera. The greater sensitivity would be very useful behind beamsplitters. The resolution then would be 3*2.8MP.

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2013, 01:37:46 PM »

Peerke

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2013, 01:49:58 PM »
Oops, this sounds to me like Canon is trying to tell us: "Please don't jump to the dark side, although for the time being we are not able to sell you equal equipment. We are working on some great stuff, so bare with us."
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jrista

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2013, 01:52:27 PM »
Is it just me or does this seem like a bunch of made up nonsense?

We're already capturing 50% of the light that enters the camera. And noise and clarity under dark conditions are a result of quantum distribution of electrons. Meaning the noise you capture in a noisy photo is the result of noise from the light itself, not from the camera. You cannot capture less noise than exists in the incoming light, and you cannot capture more light than exists.

These videos seem to show a 4 stop improvement. My guess is that they are simulated by a marketing company and that this is designed to be misleading.

Actually, if something mentioned by TheSuede recently is correct, we are capturing only about 16-18% of the light entering a camera. We capture between 40% to 60% of the light incident on the photodiode. That means,  40-60% of the photons that pass through the lens, through the IR cut and AA filter, through the CFA, and actually reach the photodiode effectively free an electron. However, only 30-40% of the light that actually reaches the CFA makes it through...as the CFA is explicitly designed to filter out light of certain frequencies. So...50% of 35% is 17.5%...modern cameras are currently working with VERY LITTLE light. We have a long, long way to go before we are recording as much light as we can...and in a bayer type sensor, that would still be at most 40% of the light that makes it through the lens. The lens itself, assuming a multicoating, can cost as much as 15% light loss or more (depending on the angle to a bright light source). Nanocoating improves that, reducing the loss to only a few percent. The IR cut and AA filters cost a few percent as well.

The only way we could preserve more of the light that makes it through the lens would be to either move to grayscale sensors (eliminate the CFA), or use some kind of color splitting in place of a CFA. Combined with nanocoatings on lens elements and an efficient filter stack over the sensor, total light loss could drop to 10% or less, meaning the Q.E. of the photodiode itself determines the rest. 50% of 90% means we would preserve ~45% of the light reaching and passing through the lens on the camera.

As for "noise in the incoming light"...that is kind of a misnomer. Photon shot noise is caused by the random distribution of photon strikes on the sensor's pixels. With larger pixels, noise caused by that physical fact is reduced, as for any given level of light, each pixel on a large-pixel sensor picks up more light than in a small-pixel sensor. To some degree, assuming the same physical characteristics of the silicon used in both a high density vs. very low density sensor, the high density sensor will sense almost the same amount of light in total as the low density sensor...minus small losses due to a greater amount of wiring which reduces the total surface area that is sensitive to light (and yes, losses will occur despite the use of microlenses.) On a size-normal basis (i.e. scaling the higher resolution image down to the same image dimensions of the lower resolution image), the higher resolution image should perform nearly as well as the lower resolution image....assuming the physical characteristics of the sensors are otherwise identical (same temperature, same Q.E., same CFA efficiency, etc.)

jrista

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2013, 02:21:58 PM »
So, this and the thing about the guy using video to capture stills.... Canon, don't forget photographers. Also, don't forget that photography is not videography. Crank out somrthing to tickle the video industry, then get back to stills...

Lol you never fail to complain when something you're not interested in shows up on here.  Can't you just ignore it and be happy for the people that shoot video?  And yes there were 2 articles about video, but what about the 10 photo related posts in a row before that?  Oh right, you're not interested in it so therefore Canon has forgotten about photographers.  You're assuming that one takes away from the other, when in reality they are separate divisions.  The Motion Picture industry is just as big or bigger than photography, just because you aren't a part of it doesn't mean they don't deserve any new gear.

I'm curious as to what piece of gear you are looking for that you feel is holding you back so much, because clearly you are looking for something specific and not seeing it.  So what is it?

I see a grim trend in a direction I do not like. As the old saaying goes, the squeaking wheel gets the oil. I remember a canon experimental camera from a while ago, a weird white spaceship looking thing, talking about the future of photography being the imager videoing the subject then selecting the best frames. This is NOT a direction I want things going; therefore, I make my voice known. Moreover, I am certain that I am not alone in this.

You are assuming that progress on the video front results in zero benefit on the stills front. Sensors are sensors, and they read out the same way regardless. Even if this technology will initially be applied to a low-resolution video camera's sensor does not mean it cannot be applied to high resolution photography sensors in the future. Progress on the sensor technology front is progress on the sensor technology front, and it should benefit Canon products regardless of what category they fall under in the end.

ddashti

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2013, 03:11:47 PM »
Wow. This might go head-to-head (if not surpass) Nikon's current lineup of legendary low-light performance sensors.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2013, 03:17:36 PM »
1. Suddenly all of the web discussion forum people demanding "lower MP count as this is bound to give better IQ" got more ammunition.

OTOH they said: "In addition, the sensor’s pixels and readout circuitry employ new technologies that reduce noise, which tends to increase as pixel size increases."

So for read noise (and total DR) as opposed to photon capture noise....

Quote
2. 16:9 AR using the largest possible image circle in an EF lens. What are they saying?

Just take the largest 16:9 rectangle that can fit inside an EF image circle.

Quote
3. Is this Canon using their silicon fabs advantage/disadvantage where it can be best used (coarser geometry, specialized application)

-h

perhaps, hard to say

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2013, 03:22:13 PM »


I'm not sure I follow the "noise per unit of area" thing.
Like I said, I'd be interested to see what neuro and jrista have to say.

Probably because you've read too much jrista  ;).
He doesn't seem to believe in the concepts of noise per area or normalization (or at least hadn't for a long time).



« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 03:31:54 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2013, 03:22:13 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2013, 03:24:48 PM »
Can anyone explain why DSLRs sensors are not square which would provide more viewing area?

sensor cost goes by size, if they made them square then APS_C, to hit same cost, would've been made less width across and since many photos do end up closer to rectangular they figure it is a waste of space- my guess

some older lenses were also masked off to large rectangles too and at a certain size the mirror because trouble

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2013, 03:28:26 PM »
Is it just me or does this seem like a bunch of made up nonsense?

We're already capturing 50% of the light that enters the camera. And noise and clarity under dark conditions are a result of quantum distribution of electrons. Meaning the noise you capture in a noisy photo is the result of noise from the light itself, not from the camera. You cannot capture less noise than exists in the incoming light, and you cannot capture more light than exists.

These videos seem to show a 4 stop improvement. My guess is that they are simulated by a marketing company and that this is designed to be misleading.

you also need to compare 8MP normalization of DxO to the 2MP of this

and you forgot about read noise

unfocused

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2013, 03:29:16 PM »
I don't ever get the angst over video advancements from still photographers. What do people think a DSLR is anyway? It is nothing but a video camera optimized for stills.

It's kind of like those who complain that they don't want to "pay" for video because they never use it. It's been explained over and over again – video capability makes DSLRs cheaper not more expensive. Unless you are using film, video enhancements inevitably makes stills photography better.

Wow. This might go head-to-head (if not surpass) Nikon's current lineup of legendary low-light performance sensors.

Nikon has a "lineup of legendary low-light performance sensors?" I must have missed those. Seriously, EVERY review I've read and every comparison I've looked at makes it clear that Canon's lineup of sensors far outperforms Nikon's in high ISO performance. Nikon has been emphasizing megapixels, while Canon has focused on high ISO performance. A few years ago it was the other way around, but since the introduction of the 1D-X Canon has captured the high ISO field.

Take a close look at comparison shots on any of the reputable test sites and it's clear that at higher ISOs Canon outperforms Nikon and Nikon/Sony sensors.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 04:21:36 PM by unfocused »
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2013, 03:33:45 PM »
Seriously, EVERY review I've read and every comparison I've looked at makes it clear that Canon's lineup of sensors far outperforms Nikon's in high ISO performance.

???

The 1DX is probably only barely better at high ISO than the D4 and it also, I think, has a weaker CFA.
Canon isn't worse at high ISO now but far better???

jrista

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2013, 04:16:00 PM »
Seriously, EVERY review I've read and every comparison I've looked at makes it clear that Canon's lineup of sensors far outperforms Nikon's in high ISO performance.

???

The 1DX is probably only barely better at high ISO than the D4 and it also, I think, has a weaker CFA.
Canon isn't worse at high ISO now but far better???

I wouldn't say the Canon is "far" better...things are limited largely by physics at that point. In real-world examples, I've noticed more color noise from the D4 at ISO 25600 and 51200 (probably because those settings are digitally amplified, vs. Canon's primarily analog amplification). Outside of that very slight difference, the two cameras are definitely comparable at those levels...you would be hard pressed to notice any real differences in most situations, I think.

jrista

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2013, 04:31:53 PM »


I'm not sure I follow the "noise per unit of area" thing.
Like I said, I'd be interested to see what neuro and jrista have to say.

Probably because you've read too much jrista  ;).
He doesn't seem to believe in the concepts of noise per area or normalization (or at least hadn't for a long time).

I do believe in noise per area normalization. I don't believe that doing so improves photographic dynamic range in any meaningful way. Signal dynamic range, sure, but the process of scaling destroys other image information while normalizing noise...the loss of real-world detail in favor of less apparent noise is a negative tradeoff as far as I am concerned. I don't know how long I'll have to clarify my position on that front...but I don't dispute the benefit purely from a noise standpoint. And when comparing the noise between two cameras, sure, normalize size. If you want to compare photographic dynamic range, normalization destroys detail that might be recoverable with the cameras' native dynamic range at the original image size.

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2013, 04:31:53 PM »

unfocused

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2013, 04:32:36 PM »
Seriously, EVERY review I've read and every comparison I've looked at makes it clear that Canon's lineup of sensors far outperforms Nikon's in high ISO performance.

???

The 1DX is probably only barely better at high ISO than the D4 and it also, I think, has a weaker CFA.
Canon isn't worse at high ISO now but far better???

I wouldn't say the Canon is "far" better...things are limited largely by physics at that point. In real-world examples, I've noticed more color noise from the D4 at ISO 25600 and 51200 (probably because those settings are digitally amplified, vs. Canon's primarily analog amplification). Outside of that very slight difference, the two cameras are definitely comparable at those levels...you would be hard pressed to notice any real differences in most situations, I think.

Okay. Point well-taken. Post corrected. Strike "far." And, frankly, I may have overreached a bit referring to the 1DX. Upon further consideration, I would say that most of the comparisons I have seen have been between the 5DIII and the D800. General consensus is that the Nikon is great for resolution, but falls apart at higher ISOs, while the 5dIII shines at high ISOs. Early reviews seem to indicate the 6D also performs quite well at high ISOs and from the comparisons I've seen between the 7D and the 24mp Nikons, the Canon 18mp sensor still holds its own against the competition despite its age.

Main point still stands. There is no "legendary" low-light performance on Nikon sensors.
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jrista

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2013, 04:35:59 PM »
Wow. This might go head-to-head (if not surpass) Nikon's current lineup of legendary low-light performance sensors.

Maybe. There are other things that can add noise besides dark current. Sony Exmor converts sensor data to a digital form as early on in the pipeline as they can, and they gain some benefits from that. They also parallelize processing, allowing lower frequency components, as well as isolating high frequency components away from pixel processors. That minimizes the components in the pipeline that can add additional noise, and minimizes the length of analog components in the pipeline.

So long as Canon continues to use off-die, high frequency ADC and any down-stream amplifiers, I don't foresee their IQ at low ISO being much better than it is now on current Canon sensors, and not as good as Exmor. Dark current is only one of a few primary contributors to noise...the whole pipeline needs to be addressed to compete or surpass the Sony/Nikon alliance and Exmor.

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Re: Canon Announces the Development of New High Sensitivity Sensor
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2013, 04:35:59 PM »