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Author Topic: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....  (Read 2564 times)

documentaryman

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Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« on: July 22, 2011, 09:55:16 PM »
This comment (AUG 10, 2011, Digital Photo Pro) by CEO Jim Jannard CEO of RED Digital Cinema maybe worthwhile to highlight at this time:

“I fully expect the DSLR mfgs to get it right at some point. Make a non-line-skipping 4K camera. At that point, the difference will be RAW 5K and 6K vs. whatever they make. Until then, a line-skipping 1080P camera is just not in the running for a pro camera. Can you make OK images with a line-skipping 1080P camera? Sure. Should you be embarrassed? Yes. We are not in that business.”

If indeed Canon has been "embarrassed" by their skipping line technology as Mr. Jannard contends, they have been so .... smiling all the way to the bank these last several years.

That said, with the seemingly imminent release of the next generation Canon HDSLRs, these remarks give me pause to consider the debate (ad nauseam ... here on CR and elsewhere).

While Canon obviously pays attention to its competition (maybe more Nikon then RED), these inflammatory remarks by a "mercurial" CEO hopefully struck home to the Canon braintrust.

IMO, there is absolutely no sense in trying to make 1 camera body do 2 entirely different things, at least at this point in the evolution of digital photography ... i.e., shoot professional , high megapixel still images at a furiously fast burst rate with the latest and greatest AF, while at the same time create "Hollywood" quality video with AF and all the other improvements / features that have been discussed here for many months.

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Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« on: July 22, 2011, 09:55:16 PM »

gene_can_sing

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Re: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2011, 10:13:30 PM »
I don't think a DSLR will ever be in the same league as a RED. But then again, it's costs a LOT less. DSLRs and REDs are for different markets. REDs are for bigger budget productions, and people tend to use Canon DSLRs more for the low budget jobs.

If Canon just has the next video DSLR with a 4:2:2 50mb compression, that will satisfy broadcast standards and be a pretty good camera. Just get rid of the line-skipping / moire / aliasing, things that have already been done in Panasonic DSLRs and you'll have a pretty good product.

Canon really only needs to do fairly basic things to make their DSLRs shine once again. But with the way they move, I'm thinking it's going to be a long time before Canon does anything. In one of the recent CR posts, they mentioned that Canon is in NO rush to get out the 5D3 because the 5D2 is selling so good still. So it might not be till next summer. That's a really long time away, especially to continue using a Line-skipping Canon.

So stop buying those 5D2 already so the next one can come out.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2011, 11:28:46 PM »
So stop buying those 5D2 already so the next one can come out.

So stop in nearly every thread even remotely related to this topic, please.

The 2011 Prius is selling great...so, it must make fiscal sense for Toyota to hold off on releasing the 2012 Prius, until people stop buying the 2011 model, right?  But wait, that's cars, not cameras.  Ok, then.  The T2i/550D sat atop the Amazon.com best-selling dSLR list for many, many weeks - and of course, all those people buying T2i/550D cameras  resulted in Canon delaying the release of the T3i/600D until sales of the previous model slowed down, instead of them releasing it on the normal cycle.  Oh wait, it's out and ~~gasp~~ it, too, is now #1 in Amazon's dSLR sales ranking.

I'm not saying Canon is going to release a 5DII tomorrow.  But when it's ready, they'll release it.  They are not sitting on a ready-for-launch 5DIII because the 5DII is still popular. 
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Edwin Herdman

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Re: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2011, 11:35:35 PM »
The only thing holding them back is probably a lack of good affordable alternatives.  If anything, buying Mark II cameras is validating their decision to release the camera at that price point and in that market segment, and encouraging them to keep that line going.

From the lens segment - Canon likely hasn't updated the 100-400mm partly because there's been little pressure to do so from competition.

pinnaclephotography

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Re: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2011, 01:21:46 AM »
So stop buying those 5D2 already so the next one can come out.

So stop in nearly every thread even remotely related to this topic, please.

+1 to neuroanatomist for excellent emoticon technique

UncleFester

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Re: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2011, 02:53:43 AM »
Holy crap!! It's August already??

Why would concern themselves with the dslr market? Who are they kidding...

Haydn1971

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Re: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2011, 04:34:44 AM »
I'd suspect that there is currently more profit in each sale of the 5DII, than an albeit more expensive 5DIII - that's one element to consider, along with the competition from Nikon mainly not really having a competing alternative. 

Whilst I accept the view that Canon will launch when it's ready, I also suspect that with such a key model, there will be a number of alternatives in their development portfolio with slightly different features, megapixels, ISO performance etc, perhaps not that different from each other, but different enough to give Canon in the edge to market a "slightly" better in some aspect model to the D400 alternative from Nikon.  Essentially the bodies and key components will be the same, perhaps a choice of sensors, plus a choice of firmware.

Car makers do a similar thing with features, as they are more greatly tied with tooling up, manufacturing line issues, third party suppliers etc, unlike camera firms who are less constrained by large production lines and third parties. The new Audi A1 in Europe for example is packed full of toys and options, sells for a very premium price, the BMW 1 series also has a much greater option count over the older model - why, because the competitors are doing more, Peugeot-Citroën now have Bluetooth as standard, so do Ford, VW and BMW currently charge £200 or so for this, the new 3 series may get it as standard....   
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Re: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2011, 04:34:44 AM »

gene_can_sing

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Re: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2011, 01:05:12 PM »
Canon not sitting on the 5D3? Of course they are. All the R&D and extra costs have been recouped, so they are just milking the 5D2 and make huge profits. From a business perspective it makes perfect sense.

Here's what Planet5d.com had to say about the 5D3 last week, and it makes perfect business sense:

"The feeling is that the 5D2 is still selling too well to bring out the next version. They point to next summer as the most likely date for the 5D3. Here’s a sample of one item I’ve been sent lately:
the person I spoke to is privy to all research and development ideas re the 5D. While he did say Canon, Japan, kept a few things to themselves, he said I was right not to expect a new camera 5d for a year. They are selling well, so why a mk III now?"

http://blog.planet5d.com/2011/07/common-question-do-i-buy-a-canon-eos-5d-mark-ii-now-or-wait/

So yeah, basically the 5D3 won't come out until sales trickle down.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2011, 09:37:43 AM »
Here's what Planet5d.com had to say about the 5D3 last week, and it makes perfect business sense:

"The feeling is that the 5D2 is still selling too well to bring out the next version. They point to next summer as the most likely date for the 5D3. Here’s a sample of one item I’ve been sent lately:
the person I spoke to is privy to all research and development ideas re the 5D. While he did say Canon, Japan, kept a few things to themselves, he said I was right not to expect a new camera 5d for a year. They are selling well, so why a mk III now?

Seems you conveniently forgot to include the first part of the quote, which actually reads, "On the other hand, as I’ve heard from planet5D fans who’ve been talking to Canon, the feeling is that the 5D2 is still selling too well to bring out the next version."

So, this is feedback from people like you and me, aka opinions, or as they're sometimes called, WAGs (wild ass guesses).

You could scroll up a little bit on the page you linked, where the author states, "...your guess is as good as mine. I don’t have any inside information to share....there’s a slight majority of you who think that the anniversary of the announcement of the 5D2 [September 2011] would be a perfect time for the 5D3. Makes a lot of sense to me too."

So, bottom line, this author is saying maybe in two months, maybe in a year, no one knows, both make sense, and I'll say both so one way or another, I'm right.

Canon not sitting on the 5D3? Of course they are. All the R&D and extra costs have been recouped, so they are just milking the 5D2 and make huge profits. From a business perspective it makes perfect sense.

But yet, we now have this CR2 statement that some decisions on the 5DIII still are not final. 

Yes, they've recouped the R&D costs for the 5DII.  But they're in the red for 5DIII development costs, and will be until the 5DIII is actually selling.  Haydn1971 is most likely correct, and it's consistent with the most reent rumor, in that they have several prototypes made, and are evaluating them currently.  If you want to call that 'developed and being sat on' and I would call that 'still in development' that's semantics.  But if 'sitting on the 5DIII' means they could announce it tomorrow and launch it next month, I think that's not the case.
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kubelik

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Re: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2011, 09:32:23 AM »
I think that, as excited as Canon should be about releasing the 5DIII, they are also [justifiably] cautious about it.  here's why:

the 5D Mark II was a camera that revolutionized the camera and video industries simultaneously.  both were moving on fairly traditional expansion lines when the 5D2 suddenly crossed those lines together.  the next two years of its life, other manufacturers spent their time chasing the 5D2, placing video into the cameras, releasing prosumer FF's, and so on.  in the last year, however, video manufacturers have taken large-sensor video to another level, putting large sensors into bodies actually designed for video, with proper functionality and proper ergonomics.

canon has a lot of deciding to do.  do it concede the video market back to the folks producing dedicated video cameras, committing the 5D3 to be more of a photographer's camera (please please please better AF)?  does it continue to try to integrate more and more video into the 5D3, possibly making it less pleasant to use for the folks who aren't interested in making indie films?  does it try to do both (I kind of shudder when I think of any manufacturer trying to pull this off)?  the 5D3 has to carry a huge canon demographic through the next 3 years ... which is a painfully long time when you're on the cusp of major industry change.

for me, personally, I hope Canon backs off of the video somewhat.  I'm all for improving video image quality, less jello, 4:2:2, but frankly I don't have the time and money to do full-scale video productions.  I'd be very interested to see what the numbers are in terms of people who buy the 5D2 solely for photo, solely for video, mostly photo, mostly video, or clean split.  my guess is that there are a lot more folks that use it primarily or solely for photo rather than primarily or solely for video.

Edwin Herdman

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Re: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 09:58:19 AM »
The argument that Canon is "sitting" on anything is pretty bad, but ironically it's just that one poorly chosen word that ends up doing a lot of dirty work.  Many of the underlying assumptions that argument makes are right, but it spins them and assigns something sinister to the situation.

The 5D Mark II does what most people who buy it want it to do: not sports or wildlife photography, but portraits, landscape, and as a low-cost body for motion pictures using EF lenses.  Nobody has said that it fails as a competent camera - everything that people are looking forward to in the Mark III (or any new camera) are things that would be nice but with which people currently are doing without.  The next camera may well be more expensive, after all, and when you count inflation against even a steady price, and falling prices on secondhand units, the current model actually gets cheaper to buy.  As with the film body days - if Canon can sell a perfectly good camera year after year, they save money and will be happy to do so.

This also helps the average photographer too - what a lot of the "Mark III sitter" crowd seem to forget is that when a new model comes out it adds pressure on current Canon users to spend their money upgrading to a model that they really don't want or need, but sometimes may feel they have to just to stay competitive with other photographers.

There is still a big, big difference in the implied intention between selling a good camera for a long while - even past its prime - and the arguably libelous and unflattering accusation that Canon is "sitting" on good technology just to milk profits.  The argument conjures up images of "fat cat execs" swimming through piles of cash and unreleased cameras in a vault like Scrooge McDuck.  Canon, and every other manufacturer for that matter, always has access to newer, better technology than what is out on the market at any time, but developing that into products is not like waving a wand.  They are under pressure from competitors and while the Mark II's spec is dated, the last thing they want is to release a camera that will not be a good purchase (an investment, really).  The unfolding changes with video on DSLRs is only making things more complicated.

Personally, I'm excited about the evolution to video but I also hope that Canon doesn't lose sight of the importance of continuing to tweak the interface for stills photography and move away from some of the thinking from the film days.  It is a pain for many serious photographers that the new cameras have dedicated buttons related to moviemaking, but there is still no apparent commitment to making Mirror Lock-Up a dedicated button.  Auto ISO is another feature that needs more development, especially since ISO adjustments only make sense up to a certain point due to the response curves of sensors.  The possibility of mixing the video and photography development groups with the aim of "one-size fits all" systems is an exciting possibility, but it also will be challenging.

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Re: Since There Isn't Much Else To Talk About ....
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2011, 09:58:19 AM »