September 20, 2014, 02:27:47 PM

Author Topic: mirror lock up  (Read 3714 times)

jimjamesjimmy

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mirror lock up
« on: March 16, 2013, 06:34:50 PM »
ive been experimenting with mirror lock up recently, and it got me thinking, i should probably do some tests!

though probably very un scientific, i found there to be absolutely no difference between 1. remote shutter press and 2. remote shutter press+mirror lock up.

there was a noticeable difference for the worse when pressing the shutter button manually with either the mirror up or down.

this test was done on a tripod indoors same focus/apeture/iso  etc photographing some small writing on a side of a lens box.  zooming in 100% onto same part of the picture.

is mirror lock up just a battery waste?

should you always use a remote shutter press for EVERYTHING?  even hand held stuff if thats even possible ?

« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 06:36:22 PM by jimjamesjimmy »

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mirror lock up
« on: March 16, 2013, 06:34:50 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2013, 06:43:53 PM »
What shutter speeds did you use?  A lot of people think the benefit is with 'long' exposures, but not really.  Fast and slow shutter speeds really don't benefit from MLU, whereas between around 1/20 and 0.5 s you should see a benefit.

MLU + EFC is even better. See: http://krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/index.html for examples.
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jimjamesjimmy

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2013, 06:58:07 PM »
What shutter speeds did you use?  A lot of people think the benefit is with 'long' exposures, but not really.  Fast and slow shutter speeds really don't benefit from MLU, whereas between around 1/20 and 0.5 s you should see a benefit.

MLU + EFC is even better. See: http://krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/index.html for examples.

Good point, ive just checked and they were all luckily manually set, at 1/4 !

Don Haines

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2013, 06:58:38 PM »
I found that the tripod weight was more important than mirror lockup. I have a pair of tripods.... the old heavy one moves a lot less than the new lightweight one.... but hang a weight off of the lightweight tripod and it gets very steady. I have a eyelet in the bottom of the central collumn that I attach to the camera bag with a length of light rope.... makes the setup much more stable.

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jimjamesjimmy

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2013, 07:03:47 PM »
I found that the tripod weight was more important than mirror lockup. I have a pair of tripods.... the old heavy one moves a lot less than the new lightweight one.... but hang a weight off of the lightweight tripod and it gets very steady. I have a eyelet in the bottom of the central collumn that I attach to the camera bag with a length of light rope.... makes the setup much more stable.


surely if it was a bit windy your bag would be swaying all over the place?   my tripods pretty sturdy and there was no hint of wind in my room or shake on my floor!

Don Haines

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2013, 07:23:07 PM »
I found that the tripod weight was more important than mirror lockup. I have a pair of tripods.... the old heavy one moves a lot less than the new lightweight one.... but hang a weight off of the lightweight tripod and it gets very steady. I have a eyelet in the bottom of the central collumn that I attach to the camera bag with a length of light rope.... makes the setup much more stable.


surely if it was a bit windy your bag would be swaying all over the place?   my tripods pretty sturdy and there was no hint of wind in my room or shake on my floor!

I just tighten the rope enough for tension, but not enough to lift the bag into the air.
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jimjamesjimmy

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2013, 07:32:48 PM »
What shutter speeds did you use?  A lot of people think the benefit is with 'long' exposures, but not really.  Fast and slow shutter speeds really don't benefit from MLU, whereas between around 1/20 and 0.5 s you should see a benefit.

MLU + EFC is even better. See: http://krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/index.html for examples.

ok thats amazing!

so if i got this right, just switch into live view mode?

i did a quick test, same scenario and the difference is amazing, very noticeable !  1.normal remote shutter  2.remote shutter +live view

the live view version is miles cleaner at 100% crop.

again i tired the same shot one with mirror up ,then one down, no difference!

I guess all the pros know about this, but for me this is a revelation ! only problem is the drain on batter from live view!


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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2013, 07:32:48 PM »

degies

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2013, 07:39:06 PM »
I normally only use it in low light situations and it does make a difference if you pixelpeep a bit. Normally I will have the camera on either a remote shutter or on a 2s delay. I sometimes use it in HDR as well.
I have a Manfrotto Tripod and to get more stability I split the legs a bit wider as I don't carry weights or sandbags. Key to all of this for me is wind hitting the lens hood. If I work in low light I can see it in post if there was a bit of movement because I did not lock down the body properly. Camera and lens stability is about 85% for me in these situations with Mirror lockup about 10% That last 5% is this back-focus thing I am coming to grip with


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Larry

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Mirror Lock-up - importance w/ & w/o IS (Link)
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2013, 01:24:19 PM »
ive been experimenting with mirror lock up recently, and it got me thinking, i should probably do some tests!

...is mirror lock up just a battery waste?

...should you always use a remote shutter press for EVERYTHING?  even hand held stuff if thats even possible ?

Mirror Lock-up - importance w/ & w/o IS (Link) ???

The question is periodically raised as to whether-or-not MLU is needed "with modern equipment". One must remember that "modern" is used to describe current equipment at any time in history. The suggestion has been made that MLU is "no longer important" through the years, more so since about the '70's - '80's, increasingly as makers began to NOT-include it as a standard feature, and wished to convince us to be satisfied with their judgement.
Numerous professionals have tested equipment to determine to their OWN satisfaction the truth about this function.
The consensus bottom-line has indicated that when one seeks the absolute best image quality which their equipment can deliver, ...MLU should be used, if possible/appropriate to the shooting situation.
There have been a few pooh-poohers, but one can read various articles on the web, and make a judgement as to which writers are to be considered most-authoritative. My own study puts me solidly in the "use it" camp.
A web search on mirror lock-up will turn up much discussion.
One of the most thorough analysis has been done by a respected German nature photographer, Fritz Polking, and can/should, IMO, be read at the following link.
Go to Home page > Workshop 1 > Sharp Photographs. 
It is a long page, with many test results and comment (MLU, IS, etc.):

http://www.poelking.com/index_e.htm

I have posted re. this link before. Apologies to those who find this info redundant.
HTH others,

Edit: There is also quite a bit of experienced and/or thoughtful discussion here:

http://photo.net/learn/nature/mlu

Larry
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 01:35:13 PM by Larry »

EOBeav

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2013, 02:44:52 PM »
I recently learned the value of mirror lock up from some knowledgeable individuals right here on CR Forum.  Bottom line: If you're at a long-ish focal length (like using a 70-200mm lens) and your shutter speed is anywhere around the 1/20 second area, you'd better put it to use. I learned my lesson.

Addendum: This is assuming, of course, that you're already on a sturdy tripod, with no other movement (wind, shaky ground, etc...) and you're tripping the shutter remotely. If you're not doing those things, then mirror lock up probably won't help you.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 02:47:52 PM by EOBeav »
In landscape photography, when you shoot is more important than where.

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jimjamesjimmy

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2013, 04:25:21 PM »
so it seems that mirror lock up is in essence just a form of IS for fairly long focal lengths when locked off?

i always thought it would be good practice for landscapes , to help achieve best sharpness, but it seems, its almost irrelevant for that from what im reading,my unscientific tests seem to point towards that for a 50 85 24 focal length for around 1/4 to 1/40 sec  so far.

definitely gonna use the live view trick, i think everyone should know about that!





Sporgon

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2013, 04:49:20 PM »
so it seems that mirror lock up is in essence just a form of IS for fairly long focal lengths when locked off?

i always thought it would be good practice for landscapes , to help achieve best sharpness, but it seems, its almost irrelevant for that from what im reading,my unscientific tests seem to point towards that for a 50 85 24 focal length for around 1/4 to 1/40 sec  so far.

definitely gonna use the live view trick, i think everyone should know about that!


It's not any form of IS for long focal lengths: as others have said, when the mirror flips up, violently as high speed is required, it slaps into it's foam buffer. The bigger the mirror the bigger the 'thwack'. ( so FF is worse than APS ). At fast shutter speeds the exposure of the chip (or film ) is so short, as the second curtain follows the first down ( or across ) leaving just a slit at any one time, that exposure is over before the effect of vibration is recorded.

With long exposures, say over 1/2 sec, the vibration from the 'thwack' has settled whilst the exposure continues, ero the longer the exposure continues the less the vibration portion will have any effect.

As others have pointed out the real danger exposure times are about 1/4 sec to about 1/35 sec. This is because the exposure time is long enough to record the vibration but short enough to influence the whole exposure.  As with any kind of camera vibration the effect will be magnified by a longer lens.

To get a razor sharp image with a tele lens outside at about 1/8 sec your going to need no wind, rock steady camera mount, clear air ( no moisture diffusion ) , mirror locked up, remote release and all the other things that make a sharp picture !
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 05:13:30 PM by Sporgon »

EOBeav

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2013, 05:16:57 PM »
so it seems that mirror lock up is in essence just a form of IS for fairly long focal lengths when locked off?

No. They're two totally different things.

Quote
i always thought it would be good practice for landscapes , to help achieve best sharpness, but it seems, its almost irrelevant for that from what im reading,my unscientific tests seem to point towards that for a 50 85 24 focal length for around 1/4 to 1/40 sec  so far.

Those would be focal length/shutter speed combinations that occasionally get used in landscape photography.

In landscape photography, when you shoot is more important than where.

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2013, 05:16:57 PM »

jimjamesjimmy

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2013, 05:59:16 PM »
youve missed my point, IN ESSENCE i wrote, i understand that that mirror lock up is different to IS but they are both trying to make your images sharper, or with less blur! 

people are saying the dangers are for shutter speeds of 1/4 to 1/35 of a second, but in my tests within those times, it made no difference.

im just trying to find out what shutter speeds with what focal lengths its worth using it for, which i guess ill have to just individually test for each of my lenses and different shutter speeds, as everything im reading or hearing is just contradicting each other!  but so far with my 85 and below focal lengths it seems irrelevant for any shutter speed.



Sporgon

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2013, 06:09:50 PM »
I suppose you could argue MLU is a form of IS using your logic.

You don't state which camera you're using. If it's APS with an 85mm lens shooting something close to the camera then I'm not surprised there's no camera shake without MLU.  Using the self timer is a good way to ensure a vibration free shutter release.

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Re: mirror lock up
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2013, 06:09:50 PM »