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Author Topic: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?  (Read 12848 times)

Midphase

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2013, 01:48:54 PM »
My biggest fear is that the 7D2 will do something like full raw recording for 30-60 seconds.  I would have jumped at something like that.   I love my 5D2, and always will,  so I'm really hoping that Canon makes a comeback.

I seriously doubt that the 7D2 will do something that even the 1D C can't do. For Blackmagic to be coming to market with this new 4K camera in July means that they've pretty much been co-developing all 3 of their cameras all along and that it's quite likely that the 4K just wan't ready for the public last year. For Canon to be suddenly competing with them would mean that they would have had to have known about the BMCC and in development with their response all along. In addition, it would have required for Canon to actually give a crap about their growing video base which they really don't appear to.

Our best hope is that the new 5D3 firmware (which I'm sure will come in the new 7D2) will result in a somewhat improved video image through an external recorder. If the difference is mild to unnoticeable, then Canon might as well say goodbye to the DSLR video market that they so luckily gained by accident.

Every day I'm tempted to put my 5D3 up on eBay, then I remind myself that the 5D3 is a formidable stills camera, and I do enjoy shooting still photography as well. Rather my guess is that in the not too distant future I'll own the new BM Pro Camera (and most definitely the pocket one).

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2013, 01:48:54 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2013, 11:29:28 PM »
OK I was an idiot. Yes! It does deliver full-size clean HDMI out! You need to hit INFO a bunch of times while in video mode to bring up a special full size mode! Thank god.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2013, 04:04:57 PM »
Nobody else has anything to say about the new firmware??

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2013, 09:09:17 PM »
So I heard Canon Announced that in the April of 2013, or next month, the Canon 5D Mark iii would get an update which would allow for a clean HDMI output. Does this mean that we can use an external recorder such as the BlackMagic Hyperdeck Shuttle for external recording? If so, then can we actually record at a higher fps such as 60p at Full HD? if not, then what kind of impact does this have on videomakers? Thank You in Advance!

It won't give 60p. Hopefully the better compression will make a noticeable difference. Depends how much of the problems occur before the compression stage. Maybe not.

It won't give you noticeable difference, trust me. I'm using Canon 1D C with Atomos Ninja 2 external recorder. if you don't do heavy colour grading or keying/compositing, there is no difference at all.

Yeah I'm starting to think that you may have been correct. The issues seem to be with the weird softening Canon is doing at some stage and with the 8bits and not as much as the compression engine in the 5D3 (which is better than the one in the 5D2). I haven't tried any tricky scenes yet though. Maybe for those??????? So far it seems it seems of somewhat dubious value. But I haven't done much yet. But yeah you may have been right. I'm not sure it even helps grading any.

I also lost my ML software by going to the new firmware.

At first I though the new firmware made things sharper, but I'm pretty sure now that I just tricked myself.

JasonATL

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2013, 09:00:54 PM »
Nobody else has anything to say about the new firmware??

LTRLI: You're talking about the Canon firmware? Where did you get the new firmware? It doesn't appear to be available for download yet. That might be why others, like me, who might be interested in it have not received it yet.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2013, 09:49:45 PM »
Nobody else has anything to say about the new firmware??

LTRLI: You're talking about the Canon firmware? Where did you get the new firmware? It doesn't appear to be available for download yet. That might be why others, like me, who might be interested in it have not received it yet.

It got leaked and various people had it on dropbox and the like. The link I got it from is dead. EOS HD had a link that had still worked. Don't know if it still does. It's easy to find since the firmware news is on their front page. There are links on POTN and all over. Google google.

Hope to test f/8 tomorrow.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 11:40:23 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

JasonATL

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2013, 07:26:51 AM »
It got leaked and various people had it on dropbox and the like. The link I got it from is dead. EOS HD had a link that had still worked. Don't know if it still does. It's easy to find since the firmware news is on their front page. There are links on POTN and all over. Google google.

Hope to test f/8 tomorrow.

Thanks. I'll just wait two more days until Canon sends me the e-mail. I'm too busy editing my BMCC video footage from a weekend trip in which I didn't even touch the 5D3. My wife got some great photos with the 5D3. If it sounds like I've moved on...

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2013, 07:26:51 AM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2013, 12:50:35 PM »
It got leaked and various people had it on dropbox and the like. The link I got it from is dead. EOS HD had a link that had still worked. Don't know if it still does. It's easy to find since the firmware news is on their front page. There are links on POTN and all over. Google google.

Hope to test f/8 tomorrow.

Thanks. I'll just wait two more days until Canon sends me the e-mail. I'm too busy editing my BMCC video footage from a weekend trip in which I didn't even touch the 5D3. My wife got some great photos with the 5D3. If it sounds like I've moved on...

Kinda scary, it sounds like everyone has moved on. This forum used to be post crazy when news like new firmware or this or that came out and now there will be no posts for days even after news! Even my begging for some more posts only brought but your response and that after a wait.

If you've seen my other post it is amazing what the camera actually seems to get off the sensor in 1920x1080, decent amount of DR and good detail, the compression engine seems to work well (at least for the soft, low DR signal it is fed) but why does it get fed a soft, low DR signal when the ML test implies that their is some much more awesome quality coming off the sensor at 24fps? Maybe that source is too slow to actually feed the video engine? But it seems like that IS the source that then gets played with and fed into the compression engine.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 12:52:48 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

HurtinMinorKey

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2013, 01:44:26 PM »

If you've seen my other post it is amazing what the camera actually seems to get off the sensor in 1920x1080, decent amount of DR and good detail, the compression engine seems to work well (at least for the soft, low DR signal it is fed) but why does it get fed a soft, low DR signal when the ML test implies that their is some much more awesome quality coming off the sensor at 24fps? Maybe that source is too slow to actually feed the video engine? But it seems like that IS the source that then gets played with and fed into the compression engine.

We know that the sensor puts out a 14bit stream. The processor then quickly and crudely compresses the files for storage. My guess is that without this crude compression, you would overload all the buffers, because the processors weren't designed for efficient compression at high speed.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2013, 04:57:54 PM »

If you've seen my other post it is amazing what the camera actually seems to get off the sensor in 1920x1080, decent amount of DR and good detail, the compression engine seems to work well (at least for the soft, low DR signal it is fed) but why does it get fed a soft, low DR signal when the ML test implies that their is some much more awesome quality coming off the sensor at 24fps? Maybe that source is too slow to actually feed the video engine? But it seems like that IS the source that then gets played with and fed into the compression engine.

We know that the sensor puts out a 14bit stream. The processor then quickly and crudely compresses the files for storage. My guess is that without this crude compression, you would overload all the buffers, because the processors weren't designed for efficient compression at high speed.

A pre-compression before the h.264 compression engine???

If the liveview 'raw' DNG buffer can toss those frame out at 24fps (ignoring buffer clog) why can't they just clip to 1920x1080 and 10bits (or 8bits if their HDMI system won't handle 10bits) and output that over the HDMI at 24fps without any other junk being done to it and just toss each frame internally afterwards? Then, at the least, we'd get sooo much crisper video when using an external recorder.

So as each of these hits the 512MB buffer they send it to HDMI after first clipping to 1920x1080 and then they just delete it from the buffer so it never overflows?

Maybe ML doesn't have access to the proper hooks to do that but couldn't Canon do that?

Roger Jones

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2013, 06:31:45 PM »
Biggest disappointment so far is the lack of audio on the HDMI output signal. I'll be that the leaked firmware is the same thing canon will be releasing. No audio on the external recorder makes this feature less useful. I think Canon does care about video users. The c300 and c100 have been a big success. Dumbing down the still camera capabilities keeps them from cannibalizing sales of higher end gear with bigger margins.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2013, 01:26:38 PM »
Biggest disappointment so far is the lack of audio on the HDMI output signal. I'll be that the leaked firmware is the same thing canon will be releasing. No audio on the external recorder makes this feature less useful. I think Canon does care about video users. The c300 and c100 have been a big success. Dumbing down the still camera capabilities keeps them from cannibalizing sales of higher end gear with bigger margins.

But but doing that also makes them just one of many and there are many hungry players. Not dumbing it down may have been the way to really get tons of sales. WHo cares about a bit of margin if you get 100x the sales instead? Who knows but it seems like they reacted in their usual conservative way instead of trying to aggressively go after the gold mine they accidentally hit on. Who knows.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2013, 09:00:51 PM »
I wonder if the new firmware doesn't actually make things a touch sharper after all, maybe comparing HDMI vs new internal is the same but maybe new internal is sharper than old? Fine edges seem to get mosquito noise sort of, maybe part of making it sharper. I need to shoot with the new, rollback and shoot with the old and compare. Maybe they did sharpen it up a bit? It is a different look than the 'raw' though, less fine micrcontrast still and yet maybe more aliasing than old video or the 'raw' video buffer?

EDIT: the artifacts, fine detail shimmer, aliasing and such seem to be something going wrong in Premiere Pro (h.264, High, 5.1, 40Mbs CBR; USM/sharpen/colorista tools) since both the original Ninja recorded files and ones recorded by the 5D3 with new firmware DO NOT have that weird stuff going on. So whatever that is it is definitely not the fault of the 5D3 and/or new firmware.

EDIT: EDIT: well other than in one file where there is some weird black band that pops on and off across a few letters of white text in a weird way on one file, that is on the original
MORE EDITS: actually that weird stuff is in all the files, slight bumps to cam and almost like a bit of 5D2 line skip sorta aliasing jitter, just without sharpenin git wasn't as easy to spot
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 03:42:57 AM by LetTheRightLensIn »

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2013, 09:00:51 PM »

psolberg

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2013, 06:52:56 AM »
this is an excellent article on the ML hacks which although not related to the firmware in question, it does answer why the quality improvements are minor at best.
http://www.eoshd.com/content/10294/3-5k-canon-5d-mark-iii-raw-video-with-magic-lantern-and-latest-updates

apparently the 5DmkIII internal processing before encoding pretty much degrades the image quality while preparing it to exit the camera either via the h264 encoding engine or hdmi. In other words, this dashes all hopes to improve on the soft output via HDMI recording. It's a hardware limitations problem.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2013, 01:12:46 PM »
this is an excellent article on the ML hacks which although not related to the firmware in question, it does answer why the quality improvements are minor at best.
http://www.eoshd.com/content/10294/3-5k-canon-5d-mark-iii-raw-video-with-magic-lantern-and-latest-updates

apparently the 5DmkIII internal processing before encoding pretty much degrades the image quality while preparing it to exit the camera either via the h264 encoding engine or hdmi. In other words, this dashes all hopes to improve on the soft output via HDMI recording. It's a hardware limitations problem.

There must be some hook to send stuff over the HDMI since it has to send the degraded stuff out, if one can find the hook and access that directly. Unless there is some direct hardware path to HDMI and to cards from the buffer that is forced into a certain pathway of manipulations that are hard locked and can't be adjusted enough either.

But if that buffer is where even normal images get sent before they get sent to the card then that seems odd since it doesn't debayer CR2 before writing to the card or convert them to jpg or anything.

It's a shame Canon didn't release full pipelines, OS, DIGIC documentation. Sooo mcuh more could be accomplished sooooooooo much more easily. hah.

I'm confused about why he talks about the DNG getting slowly debayered in the buffer and then written to the card and talk of still being in bayer format at 1931x1080 when the sensor is 22MP Bayer and 4:4:4 when Bayer files are not truly 4:4:4. And if it gets slowly debayered before being written to the card why are some claiming the DNG files on card are in bayer format (although it has seemed unlikely to me).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 01:38:28 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

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Re: Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2013, 01:12:46 PM »