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Author Topic: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!  (Read 44869 times)

elflord

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #180 on: March 23, 2013, 01:53:33 PM »

I don't think it's really necessary on Rebels since the focusing on them tends to be inconsistent anyway (at least that was the case with my old T2i). AFMA wouldn't fix that.

Not quite. Yes, the phase detection AF on most Canons is inconsistent but you can increase your good image outcome by a lot by doing AFMA. Just to give you an example. Let's say that without any adjustment your average focus is located at +6 with the shot-to-shot error of +/-3 units (that means that the lower and upper bounds are +3 and +9). If you keep it at that you will never get a sharp image. Now, if you do microadjustment of -6 units, you are zeroing your average focus position and your range becomes from -3 to +3 - much better. You will get much better images in this case.

Yep. Even if you are within the error range, you will get improvements. Suppose the keep rate when properly calibrated is 95% (+-2 standard deviations). Let's say the standard deviation is 3 AFMA units. Even if you're off by half a standard deviation (1.5 units so 95% of your shots fall between -4.5 and +7.5) your miss rate increases by about 50%, and goes up to 16% (3 times as much) if you are off by 3 AFMA units.

If you are towards the edge of the 95% band, it becomes a crapshoot (at that point it's about 50/50 -- you basically need to hope that the random component of your AF errors are in the right direction to make up for the miscalibration)

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #180 on: March 23, 2013, 01:53:33 PM »

cccp80

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #181 on: March 23, 2013, 02:01:36 PM »
Hey, elford,
I see you got the 5D mark III.
Is the AF on this model really that much better than on previous models? What is the st. dev for it in Canon's units (if you know of course)?

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #182 on: March 23, 2013, 06:33:46 PM »
Most people who get Rebels leave the stock lens on - or at best, get a 50mm 1.8...

How would you know? Just because the people in this forum are so well-off that they don't use Rebels with L glass? If I'd had to decide, I'd use 550d+70-300L rather than 60d/7d+70-300 non-L.

I heard the 5D Mark IV is just around the corner. The question is, whether to buy that or wait for the Mark V which will be even better.

Hey, I usually write this :-> ... but actually I really don't expect the 5d4 to be as late as the 5d3, the af is great (with good/expensive lenses, that is) ... but once (and IF) Canon updates their sensor tech imho the profitable 5d line will be the second to get it ... along with an internal rt flash controller, I hope.

Act444

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #183 on: March 23, 2013, 08:15:38 PM »
Most people who get Rebels leave the stock lens on - or at best, get a 50mm 1.8...

How would you know? Just because the people in this forum are so well-off that they don't use Rebels with L glass?



Because 80-90% of the people I see shooting with Rebels out in the field are doing so with the stock lens...mind you, it's only from my own experience and I realize there are many that use much more expensive lenses with them. I was one of them (I used the 70-200 F4 IS with it)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 08:21:08 PM by Act444 »

jdramirez

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #184 on: March 23, 2013, 09:15:01 PM »
Most people who get Rebels leave the stock lens on - or at best, get a 50mm 1.8...

How would you know? Just because the people in this forum are so well-off that they don't use Rebels with L glass?



Because 80-90% of the people I see shooting with Rebels out in the field are doing so with the stock lens...mind you, it's only from my own experience and I realize there are many that use much more expensive lenses with them. I was one of them (I used the 70-200 F4 IS with it)

I sold appliances for a while... so everytime I see an appliance on tv, I stop the dvr and try and see what kind it is... It always annoys me when they try to pass a $1500 4 piece kitchen frigidaire off as somethig someone who is REALLY successful might have. 

As for cameras... I constantly lens peep.  The 18-55 is predominant, but occasionally I see a Tamron superzoom or an 18-135... but I'm genuinely shocked when I see a MILF rocking a 5d mkiii and a 24-70 mkii... or mki... if I'm going to get that close, I'm checking out the fake boobs and not which iteration of lens she has.
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100L->85mm f/1.8 USM-> 8mm ->100L & 85L

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #185 on: March 23, 2013, 09:16:16 PM »
Most people who get Rebels leave the stock lens on - or at best, get a 50mm 1.8...

How would you know? Just because the people in this forum are so well-off that they don't use Rebels with L glass?



Because 80-90% of the people I see shooting with Rebels out in the field are doing so with the stock lens...mind you, it's only from my own experience and I realize there are many that use much more expensive lenses with them. I was one of them (I used the 70-200 F4 IS with it)

This is not far from the truth.  In October 2011, Canon announced that the 50 millionth EOS cameras and 70 millionth EF lens was produced.  1.4 lenses to each body.

elflord

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #186 on: March 23, 2013, 10:03:26 PM »
Hey, elford,
I see you got the 5D mark III.
Is the AF on this model really that much better than on previous models? What is the st. dev for it in Canon's units (if you know of course)?

Sorry it's confusing but the camera model that shows up beneath our names has nothing to do with what we own. I own a 5DII and a micro 4/3 camera. Before that I had an old Rebel (XS).

The standard deviation and the "tolerance range" in number of  AFMA units are not fixed quantities -- variability of the AF will depend on things like subject distance, and available lighting (either ambient or flash/ AF assist). Then the range for which an object appears to be in focus could be 2 or 3 or 5 standard deviations depending on depth of field.

Roger at Lens Rentals had some tests where he looked at the variability of autofocus of some different bodies (including the 5DIII) with some different lenses. My recollection was that with many tested lenses, phase detection on the 5DIII is more consistent than older bodies. Contrast detect (used in live view and on mirrorless bodies) is more accurate but slower. I'd suggest searching lensrentals for the article if you are intersted, it was a good read.

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #186 on: March 23, 2013, 10:03:26 PM »

jdramirez

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #187 on: March 23, 2013, 10:05:19 PM »
Most people who get Rebels leave the stock lens on - or at best, get a 50mm 1.8...

How would you know? Just because the people in this forum are so well-off that they don't use Rebels with L glass?



Because 80-90% of the people I see shooting with Rebels out in the field are doing so with the stock lens...mind you, it's only from my own experience and I realize there are many that use much more expensive lenses with them. I was one of them (I used the 70-200 F4 IS with it)

This is not far from the truth.  In October 2011, Canon announced that the 50 millionth EOS cameras and 70 millionth EF lens was produced.  1.4 lenses to each body.
There are some fine ef-s lenses (which also may not be in the calculation), like the 17-55... but that's a valid point.  I personally have owned a 50mm f/1.8, a 50mm f/1.4, a 75-300mm, a 70-200mm f/4L, a 100mm f/2.8L, a 70-200mm f/2.8L, a 70-300mm f/4-5.6, and a 24-105mm f/4L.  So that means that I have accounted for my share along with 15 ish other people's share as well... and that's not even including the ef-s lens I have owned at one time.
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100L->85mm f/1.8 USM-> 8mm ->100L & 85L

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #188 on: March 23, 2013, 10:15:12 PM »
There's no reason features that don't add substantially to marginal cost of production shouldn't be included in cheaper products. Failing to put this there is just a way of crippling the cheaper products. In Canon's case, it seems to be a calculated move to prevent their low end products from cannibalizing sales from their flagships. Whether or not this will be a good business strategy for them is an empirical question -- but I would find it hard to recommend the rebel line to a serious user on a tight budget.

Let's look at this a different way.  There's no reason features that don't add substantially to marginal cost of production shouldn't also be included in more expensive products. So failing to include them is just a way of crippling the more expensive products.  And even if they do add a few pennies to the marginal cost, that extra cost is much more easily added to the more expensive product -- so why not add it?

For example, the 5DIII lacks the "Creative Filters" of the SL1.  The creative filters offer a number of special effects:  Toy Camera, Fisheye, Miniature, Grainy Black & White, Soft Focus, Art Bold, Water Painting and Miniature Movie.  Not only that, but the 5DIII lacks special scene modes found on the much cheaper SL1, like Candlelight, Food, Kids, Night Portrait, HDR Backlight Control and Handheld Night Scene.  See how the 5DIII is "crippled"!  ;)  Yikes, the 1DX is "crippled" too!  :o

Based on some arguments in this thread, we might conclude that it would cost "nothing" to have included such features in the 5DIII.  And yet the SL1 has them, and the 5DIII doesn't.  So why the heck did Canon "cripple" the 5DIII by omitting so many features?  Why doesn't the 5DIII have fabulous built-in creative filters like Toy Camera and Grainy Black & White?  Is Canon just being greedy?  Or are they just being foolish, losing potential customers to competing brands?

Of course, different users have different expectations.   So the 5DIII is not actually "crippled" by the lack of those creative filters, because the buyer of a 5DIII is not likely to want them or use them -- although a few buyers might.  Many buyers might find such creative filters to be an annoyance on their advanced camera.  But those few buyers who actually want Toy Camera, Grainy Black & White and other creative filters on their 5DIII can complain that it would cost "nothing" to add, and it would be of no consequence to add a "creative" tab to the 5DIII menus.  Without it, they are "forced" to buy the SL1 or another camera that has such features.

So the argument works both ways.  If basic cameras should have advanced features from advanced cameras, then advanced cameras should have basic features from basic cameras.  That is, if you don't mind the added clutter that many buyers would find annoying and useless, and which might drive them toward a competing product that is more rationally designed to meet their expectations.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2013, 12:05:05 AM by Zlatko »

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #189 on: March 23, 2013, 10:19:24 PM »
Always funny to see people complaining that the new low-end camera aren't focused on professionals users needs. The fact is that both these camera's target audience are amateurs who just what to make a few good looking picture easily. The great majority of them have no idea what are AFMA, DR or other. The thing they will see, though, is that they can get just as good picture from this camera that the last model but it is of smaller size, so it is more portable and more practical for them.
Although some might fell "cheated" by Canon, just remember that it is a corporation; its only goal is to make profits, just like any other corporation. They are making the products they think will sale best, and according to the success of those low-end camera, it seems they are doing a good job in it.

nonsense....

the complains are about that canon sells a camera as NEW that has barely anything new on it.

Said by many others, the rebel line is not about advancements, its about having something they can call new for the people who know nothing about photography (or little to nothing - the kind that will slap it in P mode and never change it). 

You want new, wait for the 7d2, or wait for the big mp, but I really don't get how anyone would expect 2013's new rebel to be more than the old rebel with a new name plate on it.
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #190 on: March 23, 2013, 10:27:27 PM »
Always funny to see people complaining that the new low-end camera aren't focused on professionals users needs. The fact is that both these camera's target audience are amateurs who just what to make a few good looking picture easily. The great majority of them have no idea what are AFMA, DR or other. The thing they will see, though, is that they can get just as good picture from this camera that the last model but it is of smaller size, so it is more portable and more practical for them.
Although some might fell "cheated" by Canon, just remember that it is a corporation; its only goal is to make profits, just like any other corporation. They are making the products they think will sale best, and according to the success of those low-end camera, it seems they are doing a good job in it.

nonsense....

the complains are about that canon sells a camera as NEW that has barely anything new on it.

What is funny is that people seems surprise. As stated before, the reason Canon does camera is to make profits. The low-ends body always get yearly release because this is how the market work. This is a bit like complaining that the Toyota Yaris 2013 is pretty much identical to the Toyota Yaris 2012; cars get yearly release, even though significant changes are only made every now and then. The same marketing logic is apply to consumers camera. The fact is it take lots of years of research to significally improve technology. Furthermore, I don't think lots of people upgrades from a XXXd camera to another one, and if so, I can only guess it can take quite a few years. Those camera aren't made for people who own a 600d or 650d, they are made for people who owns P&S and what something better. People who already own a XXXd are more likely to keep it for quite a few years if it fits there needs, or upgrade to XXd or Xd if not.


+1 ---a rebel user that actually knows what AFMA does, they would know enough and probably progressed enough to upgrade to XXD or XD lines.  the rebel users upgrading to other rebels - that's the guy who brought his rebel to the bar and forgot it there, or dropped it.  Like you said, you don't go sell your 2012 yaris to buy a 2013 yaris, that's not really an upgrade - a camry hybrid would be an upgrade!
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

jdramirez

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #191 on: March 23, 2013, 10:47:05 PM »
Always funny to see people complaining that the new low-end camera aren't focused on professionals users needs. The fact is that both these camera's target audience are amateurs who just what to make a few good looking picture easily. The great majority of them have no idea what are AFMA, DR or other. The thing they will see, though, is that they can get just as good picture from this camera that the last model but it is of smaller size, so it is more portable and more practical for them.
Although some might fell "cheated" by Canon, just remember that it is a corporation; its only goal is to make profits, just like any other corporation. They are making the products they think will sale best, and according to the success of those low-end camera, it seems they are doing a good job in it.

nonsense....

the complains are about that canon sells a camera as NEW that has barely anything new on it.

What is funny is that people seems surprise. As stated before, the reason Canon does camera is to make profits. The low-ends body always get yearly release because this is how the market work. This is a bit like complaining that the Toyota Yaris 2013 is pretty much identical to the Toyota Yaris 2012; cars get yearly release, even though significant changes are only made every now and then. The same marketing logic is apply to consumers camera. The fact is it take lots of years of research to significally improve technology. Furthermore, I don't think lots of people upgrades from a XXXd camera to another one, and if so, I can only guess it can take quite a few years. Those camera aren't made for people who own a 600d or 650d, they are made for people who owns P&S and what something better. People who already own a XXXd are more likely to keep it for quite a few years if it fits there needs, or upgrade to XXd or Xd if not.


+1 ---a rebel user that actually knows what AFMA does, they would know enough and probably progressed enough to upgrade to XXD or XD lines.  the rebel users upgrading to other rebels - that's the guy who brought his rebel to the bar and forgot it there, or dropped it.  Like you said, you don't go sell your 2012 yaris to buy a 2013 yaris, that's not really an upgrade - a camry hybrid would be an upgrade!

 when I got my xs I  didn't know what afma was.   when I upgraded to my 60d, I  didn't know what afma  was.   when I found out what it was and that it was stripped from the 50d, I  was  super pissed.  I grow into my gear as I  get  better,  but it is annoying. 
Upgrade  path.->means the former was sold for the latter.

XS->60D->5d Mkiii:18-55->24-105L:75-300->55-250->70-300->70-200 f4L USM->70-200 f/2.8L USM->70-200 f/2.8L IS Mkii:50 f/1.8->50 f/1.4->100L->85mm f/1.8 USM-> 8mm ->100L & 85L

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #192 on: March 23, 2013, 10:57:48 PM »
Quote
If anyone if worries about AFMA, then they aren't the target audience for this camera...  The people who are the target audience are those who say, of look cool, it has video!

there are plenty of people who can only afford a xxxD body.
they spend more for lenses and AFMA would be usefull for them.

Of course I would love a lexus, but if I could only afford a Hyundai, I wouldn't expect to get high end lexus features in the Hyundai.  If you can only afford this camera, save up like just about anyone has to do, or if your set on getting this level of camera, send in your camera/lenses to be calibrated together...

well that´s one way to see it.

in my opinion AFMA is there so canon can get away with higher manufacturing tolerances.

it would only be FAIR when canon offers AFMA in all bodys so we can correct canon manufacturing errors ourself.

in the end everyone pays the same for a 85mm f1.2.. not?
a 600D user does not get a lens cheaper then a 1D X user.

the "cheap body customers don´t own expensive glass" argument is no argument and it´s wrong.
when you are clever, you buy the best glass and a cheaper body... not the other way around.

Back to the car analogy, so the cheap car should get heated seats and a roll cage and turbo and  etc etc etc just so its fair? 

And this can be taken another way too.  A pin hole camera can take some pretty creative shots with no lenses at all.  Every upgrade has it's price and its compromise.  If you buy that $2k lens for the $600 body, then you will be limited by that body.  For one, the effective FOV won't be what it should be due to the crop, so you won't really be getting all you can out of the lens.  And while you let in more light, your ISO range will still be limited.  If your in the emerging photog camp, you gotta make due with what you got and plan your buying!   Most people on this path end up with a mix of for crop and FF lenses.  and there's nothing wrong with that!  But, maybe if your buying 2K glass, just maybe, you can afford a slightly better body too?

"in the end everyone pays the same for a 85mm f1.2.. not?"  Yes, the lens is the same cost, but all it takes is a day of reading to learn that you won't be getting all you can out of this lens on a rebel body.  No rebel body has had AFMA.  Save yourself the hassle and use the 85 1.8, then you can buy the nicer body.  Optically the 1.8 IS very comparable to the 1.2 other than it's ability to shoot below 1.8 (stopped down the 1.8 may actually be better than the 1.2).  If your on the tight budget and clever, yeah, you snag the f1.8 for $400 and a 7d.  To me, if your buying specialized prime L series lenses your doing so because you have a body that can fully handle them, or because you plan to have a body that can handle them in the future. 

"when you are clever, you buy the best glass and a cheaper body... not the other way around."

Allow me to reword that - when you are clever, you buy the best gear bag you can get with the budget allotted to you... not the other way around.

Back to the overall point, people have to get real!  Most who buy rebels don't go body only, they get it with the kit lens and more times than not, that's all they go with!  Kit lens, pop-up flash...whooohoooo.   
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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #192 on: March 23, 2013, 10:57:48 PM »

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #193 on: March 23, 2013, 11:01:29 PM »
when I got my xs I  didn't know what afma was.   when I upgraded to my 60d, I  didn't know what afma  was.   when I found out what it was and that it was stripped from the 50d, I  was  super pissed.  I grow into my gear as I  get  better,  but it is annoying.

I started with a T1i, 17-55/2.8 IS and 85/1.8.  I knew enough to spend more on lens(es) than body, but nothing about AFMA.  Then I bought a 100L Macro IS, which noticeably backfocused, so I did some research.  I soon bought a 7D, and I'll never buy another AFMA-less body.
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Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #194 on: March 23, 2013, 11:02:17 PM »
Quote
If anyone if worries about AFMA, then they aren't the target audience for this camera...  The people who are the target audience are those who say, of look cool, it has video!

there are plenty of people who can only afford a xxxD body.
they spend more for lenses and AFMA would be usefull for them.

Of course I would love a lexus, but if I could only afford a Hyundai, I wouldn't expect to get high end lexus features in the Hyundai.  If you can only afford this camera, save up like just about anyone has to do, or if your set on getting this level of camera, send in your camera/lenses to be calibrated together...

LOL...and Canon service will set AFMA in their service menus that can't be accessed by users...

The point is it costs them nothing to add it and it would be yet another sales bullet. Just think of all the buzz there would have been right here in this very thread if it was announced it DID have AFMA?

The point is, even a Hyundai has cup holders in it...

Skiltron, the point is the average rebel user isn't an above average photographer... it's a person who goes to costco and see's a rebel as splurging...  It's the realtor that would rather do their own photos rather than pay for a pro to do them for them and wonder why the photos dont look right...  It's that soccer mom who wants to take the photos of little jimmy and dont give a rats butt about the horrid noise...  Then they read in the manual that oh yeah, it has afma, and has NO clue how to do it, or dont even read the manual in the first place and dont even know it's there... then canon has to deal with the morons who buy the camera, reads about afma, and then calls them asking how to do it, and have their employees on the phone with the people for 10-15 minutes at a time trying to talk them through it, wasting their time and money...  It's stupid... it's advanced... It's like getting a hyundai accent and complaining it has a stick shift saying it should have pedal shifters instead.  It's more than enough camera for what that target market is aimed for.

what are the sources for your claims?
you make this up out of the air i guess.

i know many photographer who only have a 550D or similiar entry level stuff.
some work in asia as pro photographer for magazines.
they borrow lenses as they need them.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/avikbangalee/

they just don´t have the money to buy a pro body!!
that does not mean they are all to stupid to know AFMA.


uggg...these users are like 1 out of every 100 though!
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #194 on: March 23, 2013, 11:02:17 PM »