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Author Topic: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!  (Read 82645 times)

Hobby Shooter

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #90 on: March 21, 2013, 08:57:09 PM »
The more money Canon milks from its entry-level product line, the more money it has to invest in its pro and semi-pro gear. Sounds good to me ;D

yeah well it only has to show results some day....

I would say the 1Dx and the 5D3 are adequate results.

Aside from dominating the DSLR market, yes.
But that's only because we don't know what we're buying.

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #90 on: March 21, 2013, 08:57:09 PM »

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #91 on: March 21, 2013, 09:27:22 PM »

So it's somehow wrong to convince buyers to spend more money for more features?  Wrong to offer a diverse product line with products at different price levels?  Then we photographers should follow the same rules: never offer clients a way to spend more to get more.  Never offer any extra product for any extra money.  Offer just one product at one price, one size fits all?  Or, offer various products but all at the same price, no matter what it costs to make and service them? ???  In what galaxy does business work that way?

well you think like the typical brainwashed consumer slave and i can´t blame you for that.
but maybe you should think again before wasting so much time asking rhetorical questions.

i think it´s pretty clear why AFMA should be in any camera.
i don´t want all the 1D X features in all the cheaper bodys.

AFMA fixes a FLAW.... i could also ask for body and lenses that focus correct from the start.

It's pretty clear that AFMA should be in your camera.  It isn't clear that it should be in this camera.  Photographers don't all have the same needs as you.

This cameras will focus correctly from the start for the vast majority of users, even without AFMA.  The review on
http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/03/21/first-impressions-canon-rebel-sl1/
indicates that the autofocus is "really good". 

AFMA recognizes that autofocus isn't perfect for more demanding users in certain situations.  It is a brilliant solution to customizing each individual camera to each individual lens.  But Canon knows well that AFMA is also laborious to implement.  The typical buyer of this camera will not know what it is and will not want to do it.  There is such a thing as "feature bloat" where there are just too many unfamiliar settings on the menus, making a camera less attractive to many buyers.

fonts

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #92 on: March 21, 2013, 09:34:29 PM »

So it's somehow wrong to convince buyers to spend more money for more features?  Wrong to offer a diverse product line with products at different price levels?  Then we photographers should follow the same rules: never offer clients a way to spend more to get more.  Never offer any extra product for any extra money.  Offer just one product at one price, one size fits all?  Or, offer various products but all at the same price, no matter what it costs to make and service them? ???  In what galaxy does business work that way?

well you think like the typical brainwashed consumer slave and i can´t blame you for that.
but maybe you should think again before wasting so much time asking rhetorical questions.

i think it´s pretty clear why AFMA should be in any camera.
i don´t want all the 1D X features in all the cheaper bodys.

AFMA fixes a FLAW.... i could also ask for body and lenses that focus correct from the start.

It's pretty clear that AFMA should be in your camera.  It isn't clear that it should be in this camera.  Photographers don't all have the same needs as you.

This cameras will focus correctly from the start for the vast majority of users, even without AFMA.  The review on
http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/03/21/first-impressions-canon-rebel-sl1/
indicates that the autofocus is "really good". 

AFMA recognizes that autofocus isn't perfect for more demanding users in certain situations.  It is a brilliant solution to customizing each individual camera to each individual lens.  But Canon knows well that AFMA is also laborious to implement.  The typical buyer of this camera will not know what it is and will not want to do it.  There is such a thing as "feature bloat" where there are just too many unfamiliar settings on the menus, making a camera less attractive to many buyers.

+1000. Freelancer, I get it, trust me I do, but you are forgetting we live in an open market world. Canon can't make ONE camera with EVERYTHING in it. Come to think of it, NO COMPANY CAN, in any industry. Seriously calm down, there is already a camera out there for your needs, Nikon has it. I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but that's the whole point of different manufactures, they reach out to different people. Just chillax for once.

fonts

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #93 on: March 21, 2013, 09:38:09 PM »
The more money Canon milks from its entry-level product line, the more money it has to invest in its pro and semi-pro gear. Sounds good to me ;D

yeah well it only has to show results some day....

I would say the 1Dx and the 5D3 are adequate results.

Aside from dominating the DSLR market, yes.
But that's only because we don't know what we're buying.

Don't know what we're buying? PLEASE say that the D4 is better than the 1DX, PLEASE!

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #94 on: March 21, 2013, 09:45:46 PM »
as mentioned before by someone, AFMA is a feature to fix canons own shortcomings in the manufacturing process. it should be a standard feature!

Why stop at just AFMA?  Everything should be a standard feature on the $649 13.05 ounce camera.  Everything has the potential to be useful to some photographer somewhere.  And added complexity never stopped anyone from buying a camera.  Yep, we know Canon's business better than they do. ;)

Because AFMA is different. It is NOT a feature it is about making a camera not be broken and about making up for QC tolerances!!!!

Something that is a feature is AutoISO. That is something one can argue over and, in fact, I will. It still doesn't work even on 5D3!! Every other maker has it working for years on rebel-like stuff and Canon marketing, after a decade, is STILL slowly dribbling it out even to top level.

If AFMA is about making a camera not be "broken", then photographers have been using "broken" cameras for about 25 years, since autofocus became popular.  And yet they somehow managed to make pictures. 

Even $5,000 - $10,000 Leica lenses sometimes need to be adjusted to specific bodies, despite their very high QC tolerances and low volume production.  I doubt most of us could actually afford to pay for the ultra-perfect lens production and AF systems that would meet your QC standards. This quest for perfection at f/1.4 in a $649 camera is far beyond what the typical user of this camera expects.  Think f/5.6 at a soccer game, or f/3.5 at a birthday party.

Auto ISO works wonderfully on the 5D3 -- I use it quite a lot.  I really don't know why you would buy Canon if this is such a problem and "every other maker has it working".

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #95 on: March 21, 2013, 09:46:20 PM »

So it's somehow wrong to convince buyers to spend more money for more features?  Wrong to offer a diverse product line with products at different price levels?  Then we photographers should follow the same rules: never offer clients a way to spend more to get more.  Never offer any extra product for any extra money.  Offer just one product at one price, one size fits all?  Or, offer various products but all at the same price, no matter what it costs to make and service them? ???  In what galaxy does business work that way?

well you think like the typical brainwashed consumer slave and i can´t blame you for that.
but maybe you should think again before wasting so much time asking rhetorical questions.

i think it´s pretty clear why AFMA should be in any camera.
i don´t want all the 1D X features in all the cheaper bodys.

AFMA fixes a FLAW.... i could also ask for body and lenses that focus correct from the start.

It's pretty clear that AFMA should be in your camera.  It isn't clear that it should be in this camera.  Photographers don't all have the same needs as you.

This cameras will focus correctly from the start for the vast majority of users, even without AFMA.  The review on
http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/03/21/first-impressions-canon-rebel-sl1/
indicates that the autofocus is "really good". 

AFMA recognizes that autofocus isn't perfect for more demanding users in certain situations.  It is a brilliant solution to customizing each individual camera to each individual lens.  But Canon knows well that AFMA is also laborious to implement.  The typical buyer of this camera will not know what it is and will not want to do it.  There is such a thing as "feature bloat" where there are just too many unfamiliar settings on the menus, making a camera less attractive to many buyers.

No that shows that that one particular SL1 with that one lens happens to focus really well.
For most pairings it is  constantly sending to Canon for adjustments.

agierke

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2013, 09:50:08 PM »
Quote
This quest for perfection at f/1.4 in a $649 camera is far beyond what the typical user of this camera expects.  Think f/5.6 at a soccer game, or f/3.5 at a birthday party.

+1

this conversation is hilarious. do you all really care that much about the Rebel line?
5D3, 5D2, 5DC, s15mm Fish, 24mm TSE, 35mm F1.4L, 50mm F1.2L, 85mm F1.8, 100mm F2.8L, 24-70mm F2.8L, 70-200mm F2.8L, 580EX, 580EX2, 600EXRT

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2013, 09:50:08 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #97 on: March 21, 2013, 09:52:21 PM »
as mentioned before by someone, AFMA is a feature to fix canons own shortcomings in the manufacturing process. it should be a standard feature!

Why stop at just AFMA?  Everything should be a standard feature on the $649 13.05 ounce camera.  Everything has the potential to be useful to some photographer somewhere.  And added complexity never stopped anyone from buying a camera.  Yep, we know Canon's business better than they do. ;)

Because AFMA is different. It is NOT a feature it is about making a camera not be broken and about making up for QC tolerances!!!!

Something that is a feature is AutoISO. That is something one can argue over and, in fact, I will. It still doesn't work even on 5D3!! Every other maker has it working for years on rebel-like stuff and Canon marketing, after a decade, is STILL slowly dribbling it out even to top level.

If AFMA is about making a camera not be "broken", then photographers have been using "broken" cameras for about 25 years, since autofocus became popular.  And yet they somehow managed to make pictures. 

1. before digital many people also looked at 3x5" prints which masked lots of errors
2. people have been complaining about poor calibration though and it means sending in stuff for adjustment, sometimes more than once, sometimes being without it for weeks, sometimes it means not having a focusing pair for a nat geo expedition because Canon is too busy fixing 1D3 bodies to care about anything else in the meantime.
3. It costs 0 dollars to put it in the body why the heck are you defending it unless Canon is paying you??


Quote
Auto ISO works wonderfully on the 5D3 -- I use it quite a lot.  I really don't know why you would buy Canon if this is such a problem and "every other maker has it working".

Unless you need EC and then you are stuck. Note that you can't use Av mode with shutter limit because they locked out all of the shutter speeds that would work for action which is exactly what you need autoiso for!
Seriously with like 2 bytes of changes code (or just a few more if they need to table each allowed shutter speed) it would work but marketing had them cripple it on purpose. Why? For what purpose?

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #98 on: March 21, 2013, 09:55:49 PM »
So it's somehow wrong to convince buyers to spend more money for more features?  Wrong to offer a diverse product line with products at different price levels?  Then we photographers should follow the same rules: never offer clients a way to spend more to get more.  Never offer any extra product for any extra money.  Offer just one product at one price, one size fits all?  Or, offer various products but all at the same price, no matter what it costs to make and service them? ???  In what galaxy does business work that way?

all AFMA does is make a camera work as you should expect.
so it´s ok to pay for that? mhm, in what galaxy do you live?  ;)

it´s actually sad seeing consumer defend such company strategys.
but it shows why companys can get way with so much crap today.   :-[
most consumers are sheeps.

AFMA makes the 5D3 and 1DX work as you should expect.  It's a great feature.  But the Rebel line of cameras, including this new SL1, work as you should expect without AFMA.  Different users, different expectations.

I'm puzzled by some posters' extreme negativity about a manufacturer's "strategy" to make a profit, or to offer a diverse product line that meets different customers' needs and budgets.  It is as if all of those factories and highly skilled employees should somehow spend all of their time serving photographers without any profit motive.  Hmmmm.   ???

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #99 on: March 21, 2013, 09:58:41 PM »

So it's somehow wrong to convince buyers to spend more money for more features?  Wrong to offer a diverse product line with products at different price levels?  Then we photographers should follow the same rules: never offer clients a way to spend more to get more.  Never offer any extra product for any extra money.  Offer just one product at one price, one size fits all?  Or, offer various products but all at the same price, no matter what it costs to make and service them? ???  In what galaxy does business work that way?

well you think like the typical brainwashed consumer slave and i can´t blame you for that.
but maybe you should think again before wasting so much time asking rhetorical questions.

i think it´s pretty clear why AFMA should be in any camera.
i don´t want all the 1D X features in all the cheaper bodys.

AFMA fixes a FLAW.... i could also ask for body and lenses that focus correct from the start.

It's pretty clear that AFMA should be in your camera.  It isn't clear that it should be in this camera.  Photographers don't all have the same needs as you.

This cameras will focus correctly from the start for the vast majority of users, even without AFMA.  The review on
http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/03/21/first-impressions-canon-rebel-sl1/
indicates that the autofocus is "really good". 

AFMA recognizes that autofocus isn't perfect for more demanding users in certain situations.  It is a brilliant solution to customizing each individual camera to each individual lens.  But Canon knows well that AFMA is also laborious to implement.  The typical buyer of this camera will not know what it is and will not want to do it.  There is such a thing as "feature bloat" where there are just too many unfamiliar settings on the menus, making a camera less attractive to many buyers.

No that shows that that one particular SL1 with that one lens happens to focus really well.
For most pairings it is  constantly sending to Canon for adjustments.

So you know a lot of Rebel users constantly sending their gear to Canon for adjustments?  I don't.  But maybe I'll ask the other parents at the soccer game or at the school play.

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #100 on: March 21, 2013, 10:06:14 PM »
as mentioned before by someone, AFMA is a feature to fix canons own shortcomings in the manufacturing process. it should be a standard feature!

Why stop at just AFMA?  Everything should be a standard feature on the $649 13.05 ounce camera.  Everything has the potential to be useful to some photographer somewhere.  And added complexity never stopped anyone from buying a camera.  Yep, we know Canon's business better than they do. ;)

Because AFMA is different. It is NOT a feature it is about making a camera not be broken and about making up for QC tolerances!!!!

Something that is a feature is AutoISO. That is something one can argue over and, in fact, I will. It still doesn't work even on 5D3!! Every other maker has it working for years on rebel-like stuff and Canon marketing, after a decade, is STILL slowly dribbling it out even to top level.

If AFMA is about making a camera not be "broken", then photographers have been using "broken" cameras for about 25 years, since autofocus became popular.  And yet they somehow managed to make pictures. 

1. before digital many people also looked at 3x5" prints which masked lots of errors
2. people have been complaining about poor calibration though and it means sending in stuff for adjustment, sometimes more than once, sometimes being without it for weeks, sometimes it means not having a focusing pair for a nat geo expedition because Canon is too busy fixing 1D3 bodies to care about anything else in the meantime.
3. It costs 0 dollars to put it in the body why the heck are you defending it unless Canon is paying you??


Quote
Auto ISO works wonderfully on the 5D3 -- I use it quite a lot.  I really don't know why you would buy Canon if this is such a problem and "every other maker has it working".

Unless you need EC and then you are stuck. Note that you can't use Av mode with shutter limit because they locked out all of the shutter speeds that would work for action which is exactly what you need autoiso for!
Seriously with like 2 bytes of changes code (or just a few more if they need to table each allowed shutter speed) it would work but marketing had them cripple it on purpose. Why? For what purpose?

The correctness of your analysis depends on at least these two things:
1.  You know that Canon's exact costs for implementing AFMA in a completely new camera body are $-0-.
2.  You have read the minds of unknown people in "marketing" and you know they were motivated to "cripple" the 5D3.
Really, why buy Canon if you think they are so badly motivated?

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #101 on: March 21, 2013, 10:10:28 PM »
Quote
This quest for perfection at f/1.4 in a $649 camera is far beyond what the typical user of this camera expects.  Think f/5.6 at a soccer game, or f/3.5 at a birthday party.

+1

this conversation is hilarious. do you all really care that much about the Rebel line?
Thank you!  :)

elflord

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #102 on: March 21, 2013, 10:45:18 PM »
So you know a lot of Rebel users constantly sending their gear to Canon for adjustments?  I don't.  But maybe I'll ask the other parents at the soccer game or at the school play.

If Canon share this attitude towards users of their entry level SLRs, that would certainly explain their policy of removing "confusing" features that "parents at the soccer game" don't understand.


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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #102 on: March 21, 2013, 10:45:18 PM »

Hillsilly

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #103 on: March 21, 2013, 11:12:59 PM »
Assuming it doesn't cost anything to add AFMA, I can't see why it can't be added to an "advanced features" tab on the menu with adequate warnings.  I find it a bit presumptious to say only the poorly educated would buy a rebel camera and that extra features aren't suited.  Given the numbers of cameras sold, if only 5% were to skilled users, they would still number more than the total 1DX crowd.  And there are plenty of soccer mums taking great photos.

Personally, I think the 100D will be a huge hit.  It is a great concept and will do well amongst new camera owners.  Experienced users that want something small and light and don't want to deal with the negatives of the mirrorless systems will also snap them up. 
Camera Obscura

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #104 on: March 21, 2013, 11:21:35 PM »
So you know a lot of Rebel users constantly sending their gear to Canon for adjustments?  I don't.  But maybe I'll ask the other parents at the soccer game or at the school play.

If Canon share this attitude towards users of their entry level SLRs, that would certainly explain their policy of removing "confusing" features that "parents at the soccer game" don't understand.

You completely misunderstood my point, which was that Rebel users are certainly not constantly sending their gear to Canon for autofocus micro-adjustments.  You think I'm saying something bad about them when I'm not.  I'm a parent at the soccer game too and I respect their situation.  They want good photos, and getting good photos of soccer (or basketball or many other sports) is not easy.  The Rebel is the camera they bought because they knew that a point & shoot wouldn't do the job as well. The Rebel does that job much better, whether it's a soccer game, a show at school, a birthday party, etc.  The point is:  it's very well-suited to those tasks, without being too big or too heavy (parents have enough stuff to carry) or being too expensive ... and without having AFMA!

You used the word "confusing" in quotes, but that's not the word I used.  If you could appreciate the perspective of many parents, you would recognize that too many unfamiliar features on a camera menu is a minus, not a plus.  And AFMA is definitely an unfamiliar feature to the vast majority of people who don't read photography gear forums.  Advanced features sell cameras to advanced hobbyists and pros, not to many camera buyers looking for a very small DSLR.  For many buyers, feature bloat is a distinct disadvantage of modern cameras.  Have you noticed that even the typical point & shoot has menus cluttered with many settings that most people never use?  This is not a selling point.

The thrust of the critics in this thread can be summarized as:  The new Rebel doesn't meet my personal needs!  I need AFMA.  The only reason Canon omitted the feature that I want is because they want to make a (presumed) higher profit on an AMFA-featured body.  And as we all know, this devious strategy of making a profit is wrong.  ???
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 11:24:40 PM by Zlatko »

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #104 on: March 21, 2013, 11:21:35 PM »