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Author Topic: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!  (Read 40419 times)

Ladislav

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2013, 09:00:38 AM »
Skiltron, the point is the average rebel user isn't an above average photographer... it's a person who goes to costco and see's a rebel as splurging...  It's the realtor that would rather do their own photos rather than pay for a pro to do them for them and wonder why the photos dont look right...  It's that soccer mom who wants to take the photos of little jimmy and dont give a rats butt about the horrid noise...  Then they read in the manual that oh yeah, it has afma, and has NO clue how to do it, or dont even read the manual in the first place and dont even know it's there... then canon has to deal with the morons who buy the camera, reads about afma, and then calls them asking how to do it, and have their employees on the phone with the people for 10-15 minutes at a time trying to talk them through it, wasting their time and money...  It's stupid... it's advanced... It's like getting a hyundai accent and complaining it has a stick shift saying it should have pedal shifters instead.  It's more than enough camera for what that target market is aimed for.

awinphoto i tell you a secret!

MONEY has nothing to do with intelligence, artistic vision or knowledge about a certain topic.

but MONEY does have much to do with what people can AFFORD!

what i want to say, there are A LOT of people who could make very good use of AFMA but can not afford a body with that feature.
or they wisely chose to invest the limited budget they have in lenses not bodys.

as mentioned before by someone, AFMA is a feature to fix canons own shortcomings in the manufacturing process. it should be a standard feature!

While this statement is correct it is hopeless ... There are people who die because they cannot afford proper treatment. Some products or services are considered premium no matter what is their real cost and what should be their effect if offered in much affordable price. This is ugly but quite deep part of "modern culture" and economic reality. 

Seriously guys (all of you who calls for innovation or better products): The only real thing you can do is change your equipment for Nikon, Olympus, Sony or whatever else. That is the only hurt you can do to Canon and the only way you can let Canon know that you disagree with their strategy. Otherwise you can only wait till Canon decides to show something. Rant on Internet has no effect - it leads only to flamewars. Only if Canon's market share and income drops they will start looking for the reason. Until that they have you exactly when they want you, because they know that once they release something interesting you will all run and buy it. They already have your money, they just choosing when to collect them ... It is called vendor lock-in (caused by investments you already made to vendor's products).
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 09:02:09 AM by Ladislav »
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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2013, 09:00:38 AM »

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #121 on: March 22, 2013, 09:01:09 AM »
AFMA makes the 5D3 and 1DX work as you should expect.  It's a great feature.  But the Rebel line of cameras, including this new SL1, work as you should expect without AFMA.

ah, now your telling us the rebel line has smaller tolerances then the top cameras from canon.
your inside information into canon is stunning!  ;D

of course there are no people on a budget who decided to buy a cheap body and good fast glas.  ::)

now, i have a lot of fast glass and would love to have AFMA on my 550D too.
and i know some other people with a 50mm f1.2 and a rebel.


Quote
Different users, different expectations

you are obviously wrong. just search the internet....

I never claimed the Rebel line has smaller tolerances.  That misstatement has been repeated at least twice now.  It misses the point about different users having different expectations, which is factual, whether we're talking about cameras or cars or many other things.

"Just search the internet" -- yes, that's where people complain that a manufacturer hasn't met their personal needs for a $649 camera.  There are indeed people some who use fast aperture lenses on cheaper cameras.  I've done it too.  That doesn't mean the manufacturing world should revolve around them.

Albi86

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #122 on: March 22, 2013, 09:35:11 AM »
It's fascinating how the only people defending Canon's latest releases all own either a 5D3 or a 1DX, and as such, are probably not going to buy a Rebel. If yes, only as back-back-back-back-up body.

Maybe your perspective would be a bit more accurate if that was the only Canon camera in your budget. Sure, one can switch to Nikon, but it has a cost to rebuild a lens kit, and money is the problem to begin with. Otherwise we would all buy a 5D3 and a D800E and lots of top glass and be happy ever after.

I bought a D600 and I'm building a set of lenses in F-mount. I didn't like it. Switching brand is always some sort of hassle and economic inconvenience. I could afford it and it worked very well for me, in the sense that I'm very satisfied with my purchase. But I understand that not everyone can afford to do so. This doesn't make them a bunch of childish whiners. As a matter of fact, I would hardly advise anyone to buy a 700D over a D5200.


papa-razzi

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #123 on: March 22, 2013, 09:53:43 AM »
This thread should be retitled - "A senseless religious argument regarding AFMA and if it should be included with every DSLR along with the shutter button - along with the general insulting of anyone who isn't "smart" enough to buy a professional grade camera".
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skitron

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #124 on: March 22, 2013, 10:04:13 AM »
Quote
If anyone if worries about AFMA, then they aren't the target audience for this camera...  The people who are the target audience are those who say, of look cool, it has video!

there are plenty of people who can only afford a xxxD body.
they spend more for lenses and AFMA would be usefull for them.

Of course I would love a lexus, but if I could only afford a Hyundai, I wouldn't expect to get high end lexus features in the Hyundai.  If you can only afford this camera, save up like just about anyone has to do, or if your set on getting this level of camera, send in your camera/lenses to be calibrated together...

LOL...and Canon service will set AFMA in their service menus that can't be accessed by users...

The point is it costs them nothing to add it and it would be yet another sales bullet. Just think of all the buzz there would have been right here in this very thread if it was announced it DID have AFMA?

The point is, even a Hyundai has cup holders in it...

Skiltron, the point is the average rebel user isn't an above average photographer... it's a person who goes to costco and see's a rebel as splurging...  It's the realtor that would rather do their own photos rather than pay for a pro to do them for them and wonder why the photos dont look right...  It's that soccer mom who wants to take the photos of little jimmy and dont give a rats butt about the horrid noise...  Then they read in the manual that oh yeah, it has afma, and has NO clue how to do it, or dont even read the manual in the first place and dont even know it's there... then canon has to deal with the morons who buy the camera, reads about afma, and then calls them asking how to do it, and have their employees on the phone with the people for 10-15 minutes at a time trying to talk them through it, wasting their time and money...  It's stupid... it's advanced... It's like getting a hyundai accent and complaining it has a stick shift saying it should have pedal shifters instead.  It's more than enough camera for what that target market is aimed for.

So why does it even have modes other than full auto then? And why does it have 18 MP? After all, they don't know how to use anything other than full auto and they certainly don't need 18 MP in a crop body. And why NINE AF points? Everyone knows they are only going to use the center point or just leave it in "focus point roulette mode" and they'll never even understand what all those other points are supposed to do.

So, you are totally missing the point.

The point is 1) sales bullets count and 2) people who buy these things often, if not usually, find somebody they know who is "into photography" to ask before they buy.

I guarantee most who are "into photography" would say to them "AFMA is good to have though you may never need it with your f/3.5-f/5.6 lens." "But if you ever upgrade to one of those expense $350 50mm f/1.4 lens, you'll probably want that feature."

Just like you probably would tell them, "you may not use them, but 9 AF points instead of just 1 is good to have".

Consumer goes "Hmff, I didn't really follow all of that, and I'm not sure I'd buy a seperate lens that costs that kind of money, but if so and so says I might need that AFMA thingy, I should buy this newest model just in case."

And of course the same holds true if they were reading all of the reviews and blogs stating the same thing, had Canon provided it.

LOL, and to tie back to the car analogy, do you have any idea how many car sales are closed because of cup holders and storage nooks?

So to me, it is just stupid to not match your primary competitions sales bullet when you can do so for zero investment.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 10:15:36 AM by skitron »
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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #125 on: March 22, 2013, 10:31:00 AM »
It's fascinating how the only people defending Canon's latest releases all own either a 5D3 or a 1DX, and as such, are probably not going to buy a Rebel. If yes, only as back-back-back-back-up body.

Maybe your perspective would be a bit more accurate if that was the only Canon camera in your budget. Sure, one can switch to Nikon, but it has a cost to rebuild a lens kit, and money is the problem to begin with. Otherwise we would all buy a 5D3 and a D800E and lots of top glass and be happy ever after.

I bought a D600 and I'm building a set of lenses in F-mount. I didn't like it. Switching brand is always some sort of hassle and economic inconvenience. I could afford it and it worked very well for me, in the sense that I'm very satisfied with my purchase. But I understand that not everyone can afford to do so. This doesn't make them a bunch of childish whiners. As a matter of fact, I would hardly advise anyone to buy a 700D over a D5200.

I don't think people would argue that Canon needs to improve its sensors, but that takes time -- years.  Engineering takes years, tooling takes a year or more.  What is coming out has been planned years ago.  I think it's pretty clear Sony/Nikon caught Canon off guard.  It may take a couple more years before you start seeing the changes you want.

Unfortunately, the Rebel line is refreshed yearly.  It's also unfair to expect the Rebels to feature the newest and highest IQ sensors first -- I'd expect those to be in the xxD and xD lines first.  And history bears that out.  Over the next 3-4 years, the Rebels would inherit most of the features of the xxD line and the cycle starts again.  IFF the 70D comes out with a new 24MP sensor, then the Rebel would get that in the future, not now.

Does Canon deserve to lose market share in this market?  Yes, if its competition offers superior value to its customers, and that value is not just the body, but the whole system including lenses.  But Canon also knows that a large segment won't get anything beyond the kits lens(es), so it might not lose many until it can get its problems fixed.

Canon's FF offerings were all refreshed last year.  This year and next will see the APS-C lines get refreshed.  The future Rebel upgrades will be clearer once the 70D is released.  If you can't wait until then, choose the best system for you based on your time-table.  I'm sure Canon would rather have you as a customer than lose you to a competitor, but it can only move as fast as it can.  You make your choices based on your needs and what the market offers.  Complaining that Canon doesn't meet your specific needs/time table won't change a thing.  Individually, you or I do not matter.  A single person is not a profitable market.  Thousands/millions of people compose a market. 

neuroanatomist

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #126 on: March 22, 2013, 10:41:26 AM »
the comments all over the internet speak volumes.

Don't they always?  At least they're free to read, so people are getting what they're paying for.
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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #126 on: March 22, 2013, 10:41:26 AM »

Sporgon

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #127 on: March 22, 2013, 10:46:58 AM »
Actually I predict the little 100D will be highly successful; in fact I think it will prove to be the 'Rebel' that a lot of potential purchasers always wanted. Nikon and the deposed king of small - Pentax, will be falling over themselves to produce something similar.

I'm tempted myself as a 'have everywhere' pocketable SLR despite the fact I'm a FF diehard. I think I could forgive the APS format in a SLR this small.

marinien

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #128 on: March 22, 2013, 10:53:33 AM »
So to me, it is just stupid to not match your primary competitions sales bullet when you can do so for zero investment.

Does the Nikon D3200 have AFMA?  ???
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sdsr

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #129 on: March 22, 2013, 11:16:02 AM »

why the hell would so many rebel user here and all over the web ask for AFMA then?
please use your brain for a second in this discussion.

Zlatko, as far as I can tell, seems to use his brain rather well, and for periods longer than a second.  Just how many people are we talking about here?  I don't know, but suspect there are relatively few and that they are vastly outweighed by the number of people who either haven't the slightest idea what AFMA is or have but are intimidated by it and/or deterred from trying by Rockwell's warnings.  Rebels have never had it, no?  Yet they sell in rather large quantities, no?  Do other companies' entry level DSLRs have AFMA?

Sporgon

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #130 on: March 22, 2013, 11:18:53 AM »
Why on earth would the vast majority of Rebel owners want AFMA ?

Are they going to be shooting with 200 Ls at f2 ?


AFMA is extremely tricky to use properly and easy to b*****k up your AF.
 ::)

caruser

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #131 on: March 22, 2013, 11:40:26 AM »
Why on earth would the vast majority of Rebel owners want AFMA ?

Are they going to be shooting with 200 Ls at f2 ?


AFMA is extremely tricky to use properly and easy to b*****k up your AF.
 ::)
That's why the firmware should be able to automatically perform AFMA at the press of a button, using contrast-detect to calibrate phase-detect, it's not rocket science...

insanitybeard

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #132 on: March 22, 2013, 12:12:26 PM »
I don't know...

exactly!  ;)

And from your tone, you do, do you? Thats the thing...... I don't know, you don't know. It's all just a big load of conjecture and hot air. I commend zlatko particularly for his efforts to be objective, but I fear it's a pointless exercise. Canon apparently has something personal against us, if some of the stuff on here to be believed. Bring on your 'Canon fanboy' comments, I'm waiting.
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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #132 on: March 22, 2013, 12:12:26 PM »

Nishi Drew

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #133 on: March 22, 2013, 12:15:30 PM »
im a student.

i bought a 550D, 70-200mm F4, 90mm tamron macro, 50mm f1.4, 85mm f1.8 and will buy a 135mm f2 soon.

all i can tell you is that i would love to have AFMA in my 550D.

i have send my 85mm f1.8 to canon for adjustment.
my 50mm f1.4 is not perfect either.
but adjustment takes a week, a week without my camera.

you (and other rebel owner like you) don´t exist!  8)

Lol, what on earth are you doing with all those long lenses anyways, go get a better camera with AFMA instead of being obsessed with shooting everything shallow as heck.

Back to Canon not including AFMA in their lower lines, yeah ok it sucks but by the time I even knew what a properly sharp image was I progressed enough to want a camera that I could actually work with, although what's this, the 60D DOESN'T have AFMA?? My 70-200 front focused badly on my prev camera and needed to be able to adjust for that, and potential other lenses, so got the 5DII instead (better decision anyways). Now that makes no sense, it was like Canon trying to squeeze the XXD line out lineup all together, 7D for Pros and Rebels for noobs, no middle! Now including the function costs nothing, and exists as inaccessible firmware. I can understand why the Rebels don't have this, as someone can toy with it/attempt to "fix" their issue, and in turn mess up focusing, and then complain all over that it's a garbage camera. BUt, why not include the function as a sub custom function that's someway unlock able "to those that want to know". Because in the end, someone that thinks they need AFMA shouldn't be looking at an entry-level body, but if they find themselves using one, then having access to AFMA would be nice.

insanitybeard

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #134 on: March 22, 2013, 12:24:43 PM »
And from your tone, you do, do you? Thats the thing...... I don't know, you don't know. It's all just a big load of conjecture and hot air. I commend zlatko particularly for his efforts to be objective, but I fear it's a pointless exercise. Canon apparently has something personal against us, if some of the stuff on here to be believed.

the difference... AFMA would always help some canon customers.. even when it´s only a small minority.

defending canons strategy helps not a single canon customer.

and even when i sound like a broken record... AFMA is just to correct flaws in canons manufacturing process. it´s not as if the customer gets something he would not expect from the start -> correct focusing with fast glass.

I don't agree with capitalism in general, so I'm certainly not defending Canon's maximise profits strategy. But this is the world we live in, it's not just Canon, it's everybody. How do you change that?
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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #134 on: March 22, 2013, 12:24:43 PM »