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Author Topic: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!  (Read 82652 times)

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #150 on: March 22, 2013, 03:22:13 PM »
and even when i sound like a broken record... AFMA is just to correct flaws in canons manufacturing process. it´s not as if the customer gets something he would not expect from the start -> correct focusing with fast glass.

I've also got a broken record :-p ... Canon lenses work with Canon bodies most of the time just fine, imho the main reason for Canon removing / not implementing afma is to screw 3rd party manufacturers who have a harder time to do perfect lens-body adjustments for all the brands they support - that's why Tamron does free lens adjustments & Sigma rolls out the lens usb interface!

Ironically once Sigma has the USB calibration in all of their lenses they will do MFA with Rebels when Canon's own body+lens combo won't and they will push sales to sigma lenses even more perhaps.

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #150 on: March 22, 2013, 03:22:13 PM »

K-amps

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #151 on: March 22, 2013, 03:51:31 PM »
Some are arguing why Canon is not putting AFMA in Rebels... but if they wanted, they could also argue how much of a good thing it would be for both Canon and it's loyal user base who will invariably spend a lot more in lenses.

 



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Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #152 on: March 22, 2013, 04:21:54 PM »
Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera.  Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so.  These cameras do work to their specs, just not to your specs.

So if some back focus by 8' that is in spec for a Rebel?? How generous of you.

I didn't say that, did I? 

I think that if you did a survey of Rebel users and asked them "Does your camera back focus?" or "Is your camera's autofocus broken?", very few would respond with a "yes".   This notion that every non-AFMA camera is "broken" is an internet myth.  If a camera actually backfocuses by 8 FEET, as in your example, then it is defective and covered by warranty, and AFMA wouldn't fix it anyway.

For most people, small cameras are like refrigerators, power tools, lawn mowers and phones.  They are going to buy them and use them, but they are not going to spend any part of their life on internet forums debating them.  Zero.  I own a refrigerator, but have never visited a forum to discuss it and likely never will.  The people who debate on internet forums make up a very small part of the customer base for such things, and skew the discussion toward complaints about design, discontent with the profit motive, conspiracy theories about marketing, etc.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 04:28:35 PM by Zlatko »

awinphoto

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #153 on: March 22, 2013, 04:28:56 PM »
Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera.  Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so.  These cameras do work to their specs, just not to your specs.

So if some back focus by 8' that is in spec for a Rebel?? How generous of you.

I didn't say that, did I? 

I think that if you did a survey of Rebel users and asked them "Does your camera back focus?" or "Is your camera's autofocus broken?", very few would respond with a "yes".   This notion that every non-AFMA camera is "broken" is an internet myth.  If a camera actually backfocuses by 8 FEET, as in your example, then it is defective and covered by warranty, and AFMA wouldn't fix it anyway.

For most people, small cameras are like refrigerators, power tools, lawn mowers and phones.  They are going to buy them and use them, but they are not going to spend any of their life on internet forums debating them.  The people who debate on internet forums make up a very small part of the customer base for such things, and skew the discussion toward complaints about design, discontent with the profit motive, conspiracy theories about marketing, etc.

this is from the same guy who griped that the 5d3 didn't have the DR that the D800 has.... some people just like to nitpick and complain...  This rebel, for what it is, will probably be enough for 98% of all it's intended customer base...  The other 2% can either upgrade to the xxd or xd line or downgrade to the powershoots cause it is too much camera.  See ya guys, got photos to take
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iMagic

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #154 on: March 22, 2013, 05:29:55 PM »
Why is everyone talking about "Rebels"? This is the SL1. A new form factor that could appeal to more than just the entry level consumer.

rizenphoenix

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #155 on: March 22, 2013, 06:15:14 PM »
I think I've figured out the real reason that Canon decided to release the SL1 and T5i instead of the 70D.

They wanted to see the inevitable implosion on this forum.

 8)
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Don Haines

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #156 on: March 22, 2013, 06:16:28 PM »
Bit of a reality check here:

Concerning tolerances...I believe that all Canon cameras (and probably most other manufacturers) are tested with a reference lens and an internal AFMA number is stored in the body before it leaves the factory. This is how they deal with manufacturing tolerances. The process is not perfect... sometimes a lens might not be properly seated, or a mistake is made, and the wrong value gets calculated and stored..... but most of the time it gets the camera close. Same thing with lenses.

The average user will never notice that the image is not perfect.... it is "good enough". Many will remark on how it is way better than that p/s or cell phone camera they had.... They are buying a camera to take pictures and most of the time leaving it in auto will do just fine.

The SL1 and T5i are for those who will leave it in auto most of the time. They will take great pictures. They will be proud of them. They will be happy. There are also a whole heck of a lot of them so these two cameras will sell lots.
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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #156 on: March 22, 2013, 06:16:28 PM »

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #157 on: March 22, 2013, 06:33:05 PM »
Why is everyone talking about "Rebels"? This is the SL1. A new form factor that could appeal to more than just the entry level consumer.
The SL1 is called the "Rebel SL1".  Check the Canon web site.

iMagic

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #158 on: March 22, 2013, 06:48:57 PM »
Why is everyone talking about "Rebels"? This is the SL1. A new form factor that could appeal to more than just the entry level consumer.
The SL1 is called the "Rebel SL1".  Check the Canon web site.

i realize that. Thats why i put rebel in quotes. Perhaps i was being too subtle. I meant it isnt a traditional rebel. So i dont think the usual canon marketing rules should apply. I guess  i am the only one thinking along those lines.

scrup

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #159 on: March 22, 2013, 07:13:36 PM »
My 2 cents.

AFMA to me is a diagnostic tool. It is there to get the most of your tool.
Same as a computer that gives you access to the bios to tweak settings.

Some people will use it and some people would care less. But its good to have the option to be able to get the most from your tool.

Canon should see it this way and not as a feature to get people to upgrade to better bodies. It doesn't cost them much and it might even get people talking about tweaking lens versus b****ing about this new camera.

Anyhow how come ML haven't come up with a solution for AFMA?



LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #160 on: March 22, 2013, 07:59:30 PM »
Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera.  Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so.  These cameras do work to their specs, just not to your specs.

So if some back focus by 8' that is in spec for a Rebel?? How generous of you.

I didn't say that, did I? 

I think that if you did a survey of Rebel users and asked them "Does your camera back focus?" or "Is your camera's autofocus broken?", very few would respond with a "yes".   This notion that every non-AFMA camera is "broken" is an internet myth.  If a camera actually backfocuses by 8 FEET, as in your example, then it is defective and covered by warranty, and AFMA wouldn't fix it anyway.

For most people, small cameras are like refrigerators, power tools, lawn mowers and phones.  They are going to buy them and use them, but they are not going to spend any of their life on internet forums debating them.  The people who debate on internet forums make up a very small part of the customer base for such things, and skew the discussion toward complaints about design, discontent with the profit motive, conspiracy theories about marketing, etc.

this is from the same guy who griped that the 5d3 didn't have the DR that the D800 has.... some people just like to nitpick and complain...  This rebel, for what it is, will probably be enough for 98% of all it's intended customer base...  The other 2% can either upgrade to the xxd or xd line or downgrade to the powershoots cause it is too much camera.  See ya guys, got photos to take

Yeah well it doesn't have even close to the same DR the D800 does.

Believe it or not you ain't the only one with photos to take. How do you think people ended up hitting into problems with AF calibration or not having enough DR at times?

I'm not saying they need to put anythng special into the Rebel just give it MFA so it can be easily made to function to spec (and now that does not mean it will focus nearly as precisely as say a 1DX evne if both are calibrated, but at least it will do what a Rebel should be able to do).

neuroanatomist

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #161 on: March 22, 2013, 08:07:59 PM »
I meant it isnt a traditional rebel

You are clearly confused.  Put on your plastic glasses and step out of your virtual reality. Canon's marketing strategy is an open secret - and that's not just an unbiased opinion, it's based on an original copy of an internal memo.  I'd go into more detail, but I have to go finish the larger half of my dinner, I'm having jumbo shrimp.

Sorry for the digression - I found your oxymoron seriously funny.

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Hobby Shooter

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #162 on: March 22, 2013, 08:20:12 PM »
Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera.  Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so.  These cameras do work to their specs, just not to your specs.

So if some back focus by 8' that is in spec for a Rebel?? How generous of you.

honestly the guy is a jerk....
For giving his view?

I think you have made your view clear in numerous posts and should accept that others also wants to chip in.

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #162 on: March 22, 2013, 08:20:12 PM »

fonts

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #163 on: March 22, 2013, 08:28:42 PM »
I meant it isnt a traditional rebel

You are clearly confused.  Put on your plastic glasses and step out of your virtual reality. Canon's marketing strategy is an open secret - and that's not just an unbiased opinion, it's based on an original copy of an internal memo.  I'd go into more detail, but I have to go finish the larger half of my dinner, I'm having jumbo shrimp.

Sorry for the digression - I found your oxymoron seriously funny.

 ;)


Lmfao such a trololol, love it!

elflord

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #164 on: March 22, 2013, 09:50:31 PM »
You seem to have never encountered a person who wished for a simpler, smaller camera.

I've encountered both -- those who wish for small simple cameras and those who wish for small but powerful cameras. The former use iphones or point and shoots, the latter usually use SLRs or mirrorless.

Quote
  Many people who buy low end DSLRS cameras love pictures but are not into nit-picking over technical adjustments, doing AFMA or reading about it on gear forums.  They buy zooms, not primes, because zooms are more useful to them. 

Yes, but many people who buy low end DSLRs are buying them because they can't afford the high end cameras (e.g. art or photography students).

Quote
And your claim about treating buyers of low end products "with contempt" is imaginative, but not based on any fact.  It presumes a fantastic mind-reading ability.  You imagine this contempt for the buyer because your premise is that cheaper products should have the same advanced features as more expensive products, which is not a valid premise in the business world.  That's a prescription for business failure.

But what makes a product "cheap" or "expensive" ?

Feature bullet points, especially firmware related ones aren't it -- even point and shoots have impressive feature sets these days (face recognition, built in panorama support, as well as more "serious" features like raw support, color temperature control, spot metering, manual focus and/or selectable AF regions, hotshoe mounted flash etc)

In a competitive market, what makes a product expensive are features that add substantially to marginal or fixed costs of production, and/or absence of economy of scale to absorb fixed costs.  In the case of cameras, the former largely consists of the sensor (e.g. larger sensors are MUCH more expensive), and most probably a more rigorous testing process.

There's no reason features that don't add substantially to marginal cost of production shouldn't be included in cheaper products. Failing to put this there is just a way of crippling the cheaper products. In Canon's case, it seems to be a calculated move to prevent their low end products from cannibalizing sales from their flagships. Whether or not this will be a good business strategy for them is an empirical question -- but I would find it hard to recommend the rebel line to a serious user on a tight budget.

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #164 on: March 22, 2013, 09:50:31 PM »