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Author Topic: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]  (Read 36603 times)

J. McCabe

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2011, 01:43:31 AM »
At the risk of sounding stupid- doesn't anyone's wish list include a GPS chip for geo-tagging photos or wi-fi or 3G/4G for transferring files? With the latter, someone could be post-processing while the photog is still shooting. Or, you could call and locate your camera if it is lost or stolen.

Wi-fi or 3G/4G for transferring files is not on my wish list - I usually shoot photos away from my computer, and do the processing myself, so I could just as well use a card reader when I get home. Am I an exception ?

I would like GPS. I've heard it consumes a lot of power from the battery, so it might make sense to produce a grip with built-in GPS. If the price is right, I would buy one for my 5Dmk2

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2011, 01:43:31 AM »

WarStreet

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #76 on: July 29, 2011, 03:29:52 AM »
From a video side there are other cameras out there like Red and Sony's super 35 that are either FF or close to full frame.  The issue is not the cost, or the technology...

I have re-checked, Sony's super 35 sensor size seems to be 23.6mm x 13.3 mm which is more APS-C like and makes a difference in cost compared to a 36mm. The RED EPIC is 30mm x 15mm and it is a modular system. I can't find out the sensor module cost alone, but to get a whole camera they are selling it $58,000. http://www.red.com/store/epic/product/epic-m Is this the bare minimum needed for the EPIC or you can get a working camera for less ?

Also, on the net there are news about a Scarlett FF35 module which seems to be a FF sensor costing $12,000 (sensor module alone). I can't find this info on the red website.

There are also other FF alternatives which costs over $100K but I can only find this info on forums and don't know the validity of all this.

I just would like to find out if what I have said in the previous post makes sense or not. i.e  Would a video dedicated FF sensor, be expensive due to the dedicated R&D/production and low sales, compared to using a dslr FF sensor alternative but with the disadvantage that it is not optimised for video ?

Could someone who knows about this subject tell me about any current FF digital alternative, the bare minimum working camera prices, and any links from where they can be purchased ?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 07:57:17 AM by WarStreet »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2011, 10:22:39 AM »
Could someone who knows about this subject tell me about any current FF digital alternative, the bare minimum working camera prices, and any links from where they can be purchased ?

Canon 5D MK II.  Its a FF that is used every day be very large numbers of film makers from News Reporters to Television programs to Commercials to Indie Film Makers, and even occasionally by large feature film makers.

Its not a Red, and, you can get a refurb straight from Canon for under $2000.

Just like the Red, for serious money making video, you will then need 10X the cost of the body in accessories, tripods, audio, editing software, the whole shooting match.

WarStreet

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2011, 10:33:57 AM »
Canon 5D MK II.  Its a FF that is used every day be very large numbers of film makers from News Reporters to Television programs to Commercials to Indie Film Makers, and even occasionally by large feature film makers.

Its not a Red, and, you can get a refurb straight from Canon for under $2000.

Just like the Red, for serious money making video, you will then need 10X the cost of the body in accessories, tripods, audio, editing software, the whole shooting match.

Thanks, but I think you misinterpreted my request. Please re-read my last 2 posts as maybe you can give me the answers. I don't want to buy one, and don't do video, and I know about the value of the 5DII. The question I asked is just to find out what's the cheapest video dedicated FF cameras, to see the price difference of producing a video dedicated FF sensor vs a consumer still camera sensor with video capability. 

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2011, 10:40:30 AM »
what's the cheapest video dedicated FF cameras, to see the price difference of producing a video dedicated FF sensor vs a consumer still camera sensor with video capability.

I don't think there is such a thing as a video dedicated FF sensor.  A sensor that can be used for video can be used for stills

DoesNotFollow

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2011, 12:58:10 PM »
...doesn't anyone's wish list include a GPS chip for geo-tagging photos or wi-fi or 3G/4G for transferring files?...

I have been waiting for a GPS for quite awhile now. Canon has included the feature in it's point and shoot line (the recent SX230), and I'd be surprised if it isn't found in the 5D mkIII or the new 1D.

WarStreet

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2011, 01:15:40 PM »
I don't think there is such a thing as a video dedicated FF sensor.  A sensor that can be used for video can be used for stills

Yes, they can be used for both video and stills, but they are optimised for their main usage. A video sensor will be low res to avoid line skipping as an example ? The Reds, and the other dedicated video cameras have a video specialised sensor and I am claiming that they are more expensive due to this.

Pretty much no one has replied about an alternative. I think I was right in what I have claimed on the previous posts.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 01:40:53 PM by WarStreet »

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2011, 01:15:40 PM »

awinphoto

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2011, 01:31:56 PM »
...doesn't anyone's wish list include a GPS chip for geo-tagging photos or wi-fi or 3G/4G for transferring files?...

I have been waiting for a GPS for quite awhile now. Canon has included the feature in it's point and shoot line (the recent SX230), and I'd be surprised if it isn't found in the 5D mkIII or the new 1D.

To be honest as a working professional, I have never really needed to ever have GPS... I know where I shoot and dont have a need to know EXACTLY where I was... The few iphone photos I have taken have the GPS feature and Iphoto (which i use for my iphone stuff) records that data but I cant recall ever re-looking at the GPS map to find out where this or that photo was taken.  Built in wifi could be interesting if they can make it so it doesn't slow down the camera or make it hack-proof so some nerd down the corner can hack into my camera and take my photos. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 01:37:20 PM by awinphoto »
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x-vision

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #83 on: July 29, 2011, 02:38:59 PM »
Yes, they can be used for both video and stills, but they are optimised for their main usage. A video sensor will be low res to avoid line skipping as an example ?

Video sensors are no different than stills sensors but video sensors need to support much higher read-out speeds (60-120 fps for video vs 10-12 fps for stills).
One way to cope with the data throughputs at such speeds is of course to have a lower resolution sensor or to do line skipping (or 'thinning', as I've seen it called).

This is something that technology will definitely solve in the future, though.
A hi-res sensor designed to do pixel-binning (or some other trick) instead of line skipping will avoid many of the aliasing issues that current DSLR sensors have for video.

Quote
The Reds, and the other dedicated video cameras have a video specialised sensor and I am claiming that they are more expensive due to this.

I disagree with that. 
Economies of scale surely play a role in sensor costs but the REDs are so expensive mostly for business/marketing reasons.
RED are establishing themselves as the Ferrari/Lamborghini in their market. 
So, you will never see low cost cameras from them.

neuroanatomist

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #84 on: July 29, 2011, 02:53:49 PM »

RED are establishing themselves as the Ferrari... in their market. 
So, you will never see low cost ... from them.

Don't be so sure.  You can get a Ferrari for just over $10K...   :P
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awinphoto

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #85 on: July 29, 2011, 03:09:13 PM »
Yes, they can be used for both video and stills, but they are optimised for their main usage. A video sensor will be low res to avoid line skipping as an example ?

Video sensors are no different than stills sensors but video sensors need to support much higher read-out speeds (60-120 fps for video vs 10-12 fps for stills).
One way to cope with the data throughputs at such speeds is of course to have a lower resolution sensor or to do line skipping (or 'thinning', as I've seen it called).

This is something that technology will definitely solve in the future, though.
A hi-res sensor designed to do pixel-binning (or some other trick) instead of line skipping will avoid many of the aliasing issues that current DSLR sensors have for video.

Quote
The Reds, and the other dedicated video cameras have a video specialised sensor and I am claiming that they are more expensive due to this.

I disagree with that. 
Economies of scale surely play a role in sensor costs but the REDs are so expensive mostly for business/marketing reasons.
RED are establishing themselves as the Ferrari/Lamborghini in their market. 
So, you will never see low cost cameras from them.

Regarding economics and price, it kinda reminds me of a seminar I saw recently about professional photographers prices and perceived worth...  If 1 photographer charges more than another, all being equal, the customer will tend to think that there is a higher value or perception of the higher priced photographer.  It doesn't necessarily mean that they will chose the higher priced person or not, but the reputation or pecking order will be established accordingly... If someone undercuts on price, the customer will think it's a great price, but there has to be a REASON why they're cheaper, hence a compromise or lower quality or service.  That's kinda how camera prices work... The red may or may not cost the manufacturer the same to produce as canon does for the 1ds, however, they charge the higher price because they can... In fact, 10 years ago if Canon and Nikon wanted to put their flagships at $16000 or higher instead of 7000-8000, people wouldn't have thought anything of it and would be paying that for them.  Perhaps people wouldn't upgrade as often but you see where i'm getting that.  Heck it would make me cringe to think where then the 5d and 7d and xxd cameras would be priced then.  Maybe it would be better cause it would differentiate pros from non-pro's more and thin the heard a bit, but then other starting up photogs who are making great photos with xxd cameras or rebels wouldn't be able to get into the game as easily.   
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WarStreet

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #86 on: July 29, 2011, 06:18:19 PM »
I disagree with that. 
Economies of scale surely play a role in sensor costs but the REDs are so expensive mostly for business/marketing reasons.
RED are establishing themselves as the Ferrari/Lamborghini in their market. 
So, you will never see low cost cameras from them.

You are actually agreeing with me. They are specialised cars and their production cost and R&D is difficult to get covered with low number of sales. I guess you know that Lamborghini sold their cars at a loss to compete with Ferrari. The prices are not high for no reason !

Regarding economics and price, it kinda reminds me of a seminar I saw recently about professional photographers prices and perceived worth...  If 1 photographer charges more than another, all being equal, the customer will tend to think that there is a higher value or perception of the higher priced photographer.  It doesn't necessarily mean that they will chose the higher priced person or not, but the reputation or pecking order will be established accordingly... If someone undercuts on price, the customer will think it's a great price, but there has to be a REASON why they're cheaper, hence a compromise or lower quality or service. 

I agree with the photographer pricing. We are talking about clients seeking a service which can't judge easily who is going to give the best service. If every photographer has been used for the job, and the client would choice himself the photos, the client won't even care about the price as a decision factor since now he has a better educated decision criteria. For example how would I know how technically good a doctor is ? I will choice a doctor depending on how he express himself and how comfortable he make me fell, but he might not necessary be the best technical doctor.

That's kinda how camera prices work...The red may or may not cost the manufacturer the same to produce as canon does for the 1ds, however, they charge the higher price because they can... In fact, 10 years ago if Canon and Nikon wanted to put their flagships at $16000 or higher instead of 7000-8000, people wouldn't have thought anything of it and would be paying that for them.  Perhaps people wouldn't upgrade as often but you see where i'm getting that.  Heck it would make me cringe to think where then the 5d and 7d and xxd cameras would be priced then.  Maybe it would be better cause it would differentiate pros from non-pro's more and thin the heard a bit, but then other starting up photogs who are making great photos with xxd cameras or rebels wouldn't be able to get into the game as easily.

What I don't agree with you is that technology market is not going to be necessary similar to the photographer/doctor examples. As I said about the Lamborghini, due to market and competition they had to sell at a loss. Market will always dictate the price with the exception of monopoly. Especially if the market is very educated and full of aggressive competition. Camera customers are educated of what they are buying, as this is going to be the tool for their own service, and they will buy the tool that suits them best allowing them to gain money, rather than just buying the most expensive camera. I doubt people but the $58,000 EPIC just because it is expensive.  I don't think the 5DII would have the same success if it was priced twice the D700, That's because every little detail gets explored and people are really educated today thanks to the internet.

Edwin Herdman

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #87 on: July 29, 2011, 06:46:22 PM »
Also, ten years ago Canon and Nikon were just getting their DSLR bodies ready - Kodak (and Fuji had already put out a camera based on a Nikon body back then, I think) was the competition for Canon and Nikon, in a strange sort of way (it's complicated).

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #87 on: July 29, 2011, 06:46:22 PM »

UncleFester

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #88 on: July 29, 2011, 08:08:01 PM »
At the risk of sounding stupid- doesn't anyone's wish list include a GPS chip for geo-tagging photos or wi-fi or 3G/4G for transferring files? With the latter, someone could be post-processing while the photog is still shooting. Or, you could call and locate your camera if it is lost or stolen.


The geo tagging I could care less about, but gps sounds like a great idea for anti-theft or recovery of stolen equipment. The "Where's my camera?" iPad app.

wellfedCanuck

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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #89 on: July 30, 2011, 07:56:50 AM »
I do some aerial and real estate photography in a wilderness area. It's easy to lose track of exactly where a particular photo was taken and geo-tagging would be a nice feature. It's not as important as the primary capabilities of the camera, but if a $200 iPod or iPhone has the capability...
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Re: No Finalized 5D Mark III Yet [CR2]
« Reply #89 on: July 30, 2011, 07:56:50 AM »