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Author Topic: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]  (Read 35664 times)

bchernicoff

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2013, 09:08:58 AM »
Thanks bud, suprisingly....not much snow! Looking out my window today and I'm trying hard to imagine that it's late March....lol!

It's funny that you say that. We are WAY under average snowfall in the DC area this winter too. The overnight forecast called for a possible dusting of snow. I woke up to a very unexpected 4 inches of snow on the ground. I took some quick shots of the woods behind my apartment before heading to work..a pleasant surprise. In keeping with the recent conversation about DR in this thread, I will push a single shot exposure and post to show that even with shadows and snow the Mk III does just fine.
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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2013, 09:08:58 AM »

Dylan777

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2013, 09:44:18 AM »
This might benefit many others shooters: studio or landscape shooter, but not for me. 23MP on 5D III is more than enough.
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klickflip

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2013, 09:45:15 AM »
At least we are getting a presumably fairly solid rumour here? .... I have been waiting since before the 5D mkIII for the next generation of sensors, that Nikon / Sony must of had in development 4 years ago. So what have Canon been doing? And I'm quite dismayed about this.

For me its not all about MP, I think 50mp on 35mm might be too much.. for most people and pushing sensor density and lens to limits. I think 40MP with 2 stops more DR and the most important NO banding / noise in shadows at 100-400 would be the optimum combination.

I shoot studio work at lot and this would make a huge difference when dealing with low key subjects plus simply having a more maluable file to push and retouch with. I did a head to head test with my friends D800 the other day as was seriously considering getting one to run alongside my 5D mkIII.

So I hope this is of interest and not too off topic, but for those debating the D800 vs 5D mkIII or MFDB or wanting more MP read on. And when I get time this week I will post a proper review of my tests with samples.

The first thing I found was the D800 has not much more DR in a studio setting with a subject full of smooth tones and some fairly contrasty areas. The D800 is a more natural looking file and much less micro contrast & sharpness compared to canon raws straight out of the box. The actual MP size difference was not that big, nothing that couldnt successfully be upscaled. But the shadow detail had quite a bit less noise, but also had less information in it, it seemed the noise in the canons shadow areas was actually emphasising any subtle details especially on skin texture.

As some other posters correctly said its about what you do with the file and how you shoot to capture the exposure.
In canons case overexpose TTR and get a cleaner file plus you can pull back the highlights slightly more than the D800.
But if you do underexpose or have to pull shadow up a lot then the D800 wins hands down.

Surprisingly in my tests I compared my experience of Hasselblad H3DII-39 and Phase one P30+ image quality and the D800 is better than the Hasselblad sensor -cleaner and can be pushed more, although it is not as bitingly sharp but that can easily be added later. And the P30 is a harder more processed looking file similar to the canon but can be pushed a lot but is also very smooth at the same time.

But what I did find was the most important factor - LENS, I only had access to the nikon 24-70 and tested it against the canon 24-105 L and 50mm 1.4 and both the canon lens appeared to be sharper. I believe 50 % was due to sharper lens and 50% due to the way the canon raw files are sharper to begin with before any sharpening can be applied in processing. Also because of the slightly smaller file size the canon images looked sharper overall which is good news for most uses up to 24" prints I would imagine.

Then the next day I tested out the 35L , 50L and 85L and I was very surprised by the look from these lens, not quite enough is written about this in reviews that concentrate on sharpness , CA, vignetting and bokeh. Bokeh is one thing but the way these lenses smoothly draw the image and combined with the punchy raw characteristics the camera it was amazingly similar to the Hasselblad primes with a Phase One back which is very impressive indeed.

So after a lot of studying files and forums about the D800 then testing it myself I ended up with the surprise conclusion to invest more into Canon-specifically the main 3 primes I don't have yet,  35L (though may try the sigma as well) 50L and 85L as this will have the nicest and biggest impact on the look and feel of my images.
And beyond that i really do hope canon do produce a sensor with as clean shadows as the D800 in the next year or I will be really sad to have to look to alternatives again.

However I am slightly scared that they will produce a monster MP 50+ with less than 1 stop better DR and more noise reduction to keep shadow noise at bay rather than concentrating on a purely better sensor in terms of DR, tonal gradation and shadow noise/ banding. 

One last word is please people and Canon stop this hi-iso driven quest, very rarely do most people need to shoot over 6400 and how many truly beautiful images have been made at stupidly high ISOs. It's ruining photography for a lot I believe compared to few good snaps you might be able to get and marvel about how dark it was!
When I saw a post recently about them demoing a video sensor that can shoot in near darkness I wailled and cursed why are their R&D so obsessed with that and video .. remember proper photographers that like to use light, studio flash and shoot mostly at 100iso for beautiful clean stunning professional results!

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2013, 09:57:53 AM »
Just a small question, and excuse me if i seem a little illeducated about a high MP sensors as i'm only a novice, but who is it aimed at? Are we looking at fashion pros producing life size posters / billboards and that type of things? My 18MP camera can print A3 at 300dpi so I'm assuming you all produce huge prints for one thing or another?

pedro

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2013, 10:19:37 AM »
Maybe by then, Intel will have a superfast processor and SATA express will be out.  Current SSD's are limited by SATA III to about 500mb/sec, and huge image files take a lot of time to process.
At least Canon has options for sraw that you can select when you don't want full blown resolution.  With the D800, you get those huge files every time if you want to use raw.
That way a user would have a choice.


Yes but I doubt Canon will try to incorporate anything more than what is bare minimum. Lately they just don't seem to be interested in leapfrogging the competition, they seem to be content with merely keeping in step. So I doubt they would use any new technology that hasn't been tried and true like SATA Express. Perhaps this time we'll at least hopefully get USB 3.0 (although I would prefer Thunderbolt) as an I/O upgrade. But who knows, perhaps they'll prove me wrong. I certainly hope so for everyone's sake.

...they seem to be content with merely keeping in step If I am not absolutely wrong about all I've read during my intercultural studies about asian people, this IS asian way of competition. Because if you step outside of the mass, you expose yourself too much and take the whole stagelight for yourself, which is considered as impolite...and Canon are a japanese enterprise...so much more lowprofile acting is requiered. Anybody out there to confirm my humble assumptions, please?
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Woody

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #80 on: March 25, 2013, 10:25:17 AM »
Because if you step outside of the mass, you expose yourself too much and take the whole stagelight for yourself, which is considered as impolite...and Canon are a japanese enterprise...so much more lowprofile acting is requiered. Anybody out there to confirm my humble assumptions, please?

Nikon, Sony, Olympus etc are also Japanese companies.

Besides, Canon was one of the FIRST companies to introduce FF sensors.

pedro

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2013, 10:41:41 AM »
Because if you step outside of the mass, you expose yourself too much and take the whole stagelight for yourself, which is considered as impolite...and Canon are a japanese enterprise...so much more lowprofile acting is requiered. Anybody out there to confirm my humble assumptions, please?

Nikon, Sony, Olympus etc are also Japanese companies.

Besides, Canon was one of the FIRST companies to introduce FF sensors.

Thanks, Woody. Then I was a bit too blue eyeish about that...;-)

On a sidenote: I just hope that all this might lead up to new, higher improved and different sensor tech which will also result in even better ultra high ISOs in the next or the overnext 5D-generation (I know there are 1Dxs, but they're out of my saving up scheme). My 5D3 delievers decent results as up to 51k if I wanna push it, 102k looks a bit different ;-) So if 51k ISO will nearly look like let's say ISO 16-18.000 I will be more than excited. Let's hope for the best then. But anyway, the 5D3 rock really hard.


Shooting my Cat at ISO 51k by Peter Hauri, on Flickr


Z96A3565bBWKLEINALT by Peter Hauri, on Flickr
this past weekend, ISO 51k


Z96A3556bBWKLEIN by Peter Hauri, on Flickr
this past weekend, ISO 102k
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 10:52:15 AM by pedro »
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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2013, 10:41:41 AM »

psolberg

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #82 on: March 25, 2013, 11:07:52 AM »
about time, and good for canon as the benefits of high resolution sensors and oversampling are becoming obvious to anybody shooting with D800/e all the time, specially for portraits, fashion, weddings and landscapes.

if anything this camera sounds conservative. it should be at least 50+MP if it is to keep up with 2014 trends.

finally canon seems to be leaving the low resolution game they've been playing!!!

bestimage

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #83 on: March 25, 2013, 11:26:49 AM »
hoping for 16 bit color depth and batter sensor

insanitybeard

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #84 on: March 25, 2013, 12:37:58 PM »
privatebydesign- love the signature! (not exactly on topic but probably relevent, given the amount of negativity seen on this forum sometimes)  :P
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Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #85 on: March 25, 2013, 12:53:40 PM »
At least we are getting a presumably fairly solid rumour here? .... I have been waiting since before the 5D mkIII for the next generation of sensors, that Nikon / Sony must of had in development 4 years ago. So what have Canon been doing? And I'm quite dismayed about this.

For me its not all about MP, I think 50mp on 35mm might be too much.. for most people and pushing sensor density and lens to limits. I think 40MP with 2 stops more DR and the most important NO banding / noise in shadows at 100-400 would be the optimum combination.

I shoot studio work at lot and this would make a huge difference when dealing with low key subjects plus simply having a more maluable file to push and retouch with. I did a head to head test with my friends D800 the other day as was seriously considering getting one to run alongside my 5D mkIII.

So I hope this is of interest and not too off topic, but for those debating the D800 vs 5D mkIII or MFDB or wanting more MP read on. And when I get time this week I will post a proper review of my tests with samples.

The first thing I found was the D800 has not much more DR in a studio setting with a subject full of smooth tones and some fairly contrasty areas. The D800 is a more natural looking file and much less micro contrast & sharpness compared to canon raws straight out of the box. The actual MP size difference was not that big, nothing that couldnt successfully be upscaled. But the shadow detail had quite a bit less noise, but also had less information in it, it seemed the noise in the canons shadow areas was actually emphasising any subtle details especially on skin texture.

As some other posters correctly said its about what you do with the file and how you shoot to capture the exposure.
In canons case overexpose TTR and get a cleaner file plus you can pull back the highlights slightly more than the D800.
But if you do underexpose or have to pull shadow up a lot then the D800 wins hands down.

Surprisingly in my tests I compared my experience of Hasselblad H3DII-39 and Phase one P30+ image quality and the D800 is better than the Hasselblad sensor -cleaner and can be pushed more, although it is not as bitingly sharp but that can easily be added later. And the P30 is a harder more processed looking file similar to the canon but can be pushed a lot but is also very smooth at the same time.

But what I did find was the most important factor - LENS, I only had access to the nikon 24-70 and tested it against the canon 24-105 L and 50mm 1.4 and both the canon lens appeared to be sharper. I believe 50 % was due to sharper lens and 50% due to the way the canon raw files are sharper to begin with before any sharpening can be applied in processing. Also because of the slightly smaller file size the canon images looked sharper overall which is good news for most uses up to 24" prints I would imagine.

Then the next day I tested out the 35L , 50L and 85L and I was very surprised by the look from these lens, not quite enough is written about this in reviews that concentrate on sharpness , CA, vignetting and bokeh. Bokeh is one thing but the way these lenses smoothly draw the image and combined with the punchy raw characteristics the camera it was amazingly similar to the Hasselblad primes with a Phase One back which is very impressive indeed.

So after a lot of studying files and forums about the D800 then testing it myself I ended up with the surprise conclusion to invest more into Canon-specifically the main 3 primes I don't have yet,  35L (though may try the sigma as well) 50L and 85L as this will have the nicest and biggest impact on the look and feel of my images.
And beyond that i really do hope canon do produce a sensor with as clean shadows as the D800 in the next year or I will be really sad to have to look to alternatives again.

However I am slightly scared that they will produce a monster MP 50+ with less than 1 stop better DR and more noise reduction to keep shadow noise at bay rather than concentrating on a purely better sensor in terms of DR, tonal gradation and shadow noise/ banding. 

One last word is please people and Canon stop this hi-iso driven quest, very rarely do most people need to shoot over 6400 and how many truly beautiful images have been made at stupidly high ISOs. It's ruining photography for a lot I believe compared to few good snaps you might be able to get and marvel about how dark it was!
When I saw a post recently about them demoing a video sensor that can shoot in near darkness I wailled and cursed why are their R&D so obsessed with that and video .. remember proper photographers that like to use light, studio flash and shoot mostly at 100iso for beautiful clean stunning professional results!

While I want cleaner low iso, I also welcome all the low light improvements as it allows us wedding shooters to capture a greater variety of images that include the ambient light of the venue as opposed to blasting it away itch off cam lighting. 

Watching canons tactics, if you notice the past few years have had a ton of lens developments.  Me thinks that is a good plan, release lenses that can resolve way more than 50 MP's while the body is still in dev.  That way glass wise canon is ready for the next decade.

Either way though, while I WANT a big mp body, I as of yet do not NEED a big a big mp body. 
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

Bruce Photography

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #86 on: March 25, 2013, 01:33:12 PM »
Maybe by then, Intel will have a superfast processor and SATA express will be out.  Current SSD's are limited by SATA III to about 500mb/sec, and huge image files take a lot of time to process.
At least Canon has options for sraw that you can select when you don't want full blown resolution.  With the D800, you get those huge files every time if you want to use raw.
That way a user would have a choice.

Yeah but sRAW isn't really all that RAW and with Nikon you can use crop mode FULL RAW which is great for wildlife since you maintain reach while not wasting storage on all the outer border areas so I'd actually WAY rather they went to the Nikon way of handling it.

I'd rather it be 39MP for perfect video and keeping 6fps than 47 or 50+ and being less than 5fps and having worse video.

Crop mode on my D800 crops the image away.  That's not useful to lose part of your FF image.  Its a feature added for those using the old DX lenses and turns the D800 into a 16mp crop camera.  I could use a 7D and get a cropped image with more pixels than a cropped D800.
If I had 1500 images to edit from a large MP sensor, I'd certainly try sraw or mraw.  I went looking for the feature after I got my D800 and had a day to edit 500 images, it was not fun to spend that many unplanned hours.

Sorry for the delay, I hit the wrong button.  I just received my D7100.  If feels like a cropped D800 but with 24mp.  I must say that I'm glad to see that Canon will be announcing some high MP camera this year.  I can now wait for 2014 to use my Canon gear again and I welcome the advance notice.  I was thinking of buying a Nikon supertele but I think I'll now wait until I can use my Canon glass again.  I may order the Nikon 200-400 because from what the rumors are saying the Canon 200-400 may be better but may be over $10,000 usd.  I have to draw the line somewhere.

By the way, my Dell computer from Costco (in other words, nothing special) is fine for processing large D800 images.  I use lostless compressed format and they average about 41mb.  The 5D3 as I remember produces files about 29mb per shot.  Yes their is a difference but getting a USB 3.0 driver made up for the slower download.  Getting bridge to produce the 100% preview images do take some time but CS6 seems to spawn a different process to do the downloading so I'm working on something else as the download and subsequent preview building is taking place. 

Bottom line is that technology is still going to be moving forward now and in the future.   
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 01:45:11 PM by Bruce Photography »

Dantana

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #87 on: March 25, 2013, 01:51:18 PM »
Anybody that can't print big from a Canon file just doesn't know what they are doing. I posted these in another thread about sharpness.

First image is the complete 21MP 1Ds MkIII capture, the second image is a 7" crop from a 47" print file. Now I played with the figures a little (downsampled my print file) to get the crop to display in the forum at around 7" wide. On my 27" monitor (which is where I got the measurements) the crop is 7" wide, but your screen size and resolution will affect the absolute size, if you have a tablet zoom until the crop is 7" wide.

You can now put your nose up to a pretty accurate representation (depending on your screen size, resolution and calibration) of a small section from my 31"x47" print, not the file, an actual print at life size.

I print big often, even I don't need much more than 21MP, when the Canon big MP camera comes out I won't buy it. Hopefully the 1Dx MkII will go up to 22-25MP, if it does then I am all over it, I will buy two and probably never buy another camera.

EDIT: When I wrote this it was in reply to another poster who said they could only print to 19" with their 5D MkII, it kinda doesn't seem as relevant now since they removed it, DOH!

That's a great image Private. I think it's in the eyes, and of course the light. The sensor sure doesn't seem to be holding you back.

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #87 on: March 25, 2013, 01:51:18 PM »

art_d

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #88 on: March 25, 2013, 03:04:03 PM »
Anybody that can't print big from a Canon file just doesn't know what they are doing.
That seems like a quite a presumptive statement to make.

Quote
First image is the complete 21MP 1Ds MkIII capture, the second image is a 7" crop from a 47" print file. Now I played with the figures a little (downsampled my print file) to get the crop to display in the forum at around 7" wide. On my 27" monitor (which is where I got the measurements) the crop is 7" wide, but your screen size and resolution will affect the absolute size, if you have a tablet zoom until the crop is 7" wide.
I am not sure how you are getting to your 7" wide crop. But your cropping image file is 700 pixels wide. At 300 ppi, that is 2.33 inches.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 03:06:35 PM by art_d »

motorhead

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #89 on: March 25, 2013, 03:16:25 PM »
Its about time Canon responded to the Nikon D800 and D800E. This fixation with high ISO, low DR, and high noise needs to stop. We need a quality camera to bring back the 1Ds range, a camera that is best in class.

For whatever reason Canon have been asleep at the wheel for a while now and its time they woke up. I have no wish for ISO extremes, nor do I shoot video at all, but I do shoot landscapes, so want a camera that has a minimum of noise and world beating DR. Maybe removal of the anti-aliassing filter?

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #89 on: March 25, 2013, 03:16:25 PM »