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Author Topic: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]  (Read 65374 times)

sanj

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #150 on: March 27, 2013, 12:06:01 AM »
REQUEST:
Can anyone guide me to a study which indicates that high MP results in poorer IQ? PLS.

I so curious about this negativity towards high MP cameras. I want to read up and understand.

A buddy of mine shifted to Nikon for D800 and sings (literally) its praises.

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #150 on: March 27, 2013, 12:06:01 AM »

heptagon

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #151 on: March 27, 2013, 03:41:39 AM »
Would you as a landscaper be disappointed if it only had ISO100, no VF and no Phase-AF?

Could you use ISO25 if it gave you more DR?

Is the Live-View-AF of the EOS-M sufficient for your studio shots?


If you are OK with all these, the new Camera would be the ultimate mirrorless resolution and DR monster which doesn't compromise with general usability wich already is provided by the 1Dx.

mb66energy

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #152 on: March 27, 2013, 04:07:32 AM »
[...]

Seems that the most desirable quality of the D800 would be the impressive dynamic range it offers.

I'd just like to ask, you folks think cameras will ever reach the DR our eyes and brains could resolve and if so, the impact it could have on photography?

[...]

In my opinion:

AD 1 (DR of D800): I think DR will allways help to capture reality as close as possible.

AD 2: Very good question because you included the brain: I think a real 20bit DR sensor with a 20bit DR display will convince our eye and brain to see the real thing.
Physically a 20bit DR sensor is easy to built, but technically it is not. Think about an ISO 6 sensitivity and the capacity to collect large amounts of charge per pixel without saturation ... you will be fine: Pedestal noise is the same but saturation is far away and increases the DR. Physically.
Technically: I think you have to go into the 3rd dimension for sensor pixels charge storage and a good 20bit ADC is available but slow (at the time). 3D-Sensor design is IMO the real challenge because you have to create millions of 3D structures with small tolerances between them in the size of some microns. A 12 Mpix full frame sensor with a DR of 20bit would be sufficient (for the beginning) and blow away a lot of other sensors for some photographic fields.

I am shure that a lot of companies do research to built such (sensor) chips. A lot of chip technology has 3Dish structures just now. Hopefully we will see good sensors soon in Canon cameras - I don't have money/time to reinvest in new glass ... and hopefully we will see large OLED displays which provide DRs of 14 or 16 bit easily.
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mb66energy

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #153 on: March 27, 2013, 04:23:42 AM »
REQUEST:
Can anyone guide me to a study which indicates that high MP results in poorer IQ? PLS.
[...]

I cannot guide you to such a study and I am shure you will never find such a study because:

If the per pixel quality stays the same, more pixels give always better IQ until other factors like lens IQ are limiting.

Lower pixel counts help to reduce processing time and filesize which may be valuable for some purposes but nothing less/more. 

I am physicist and it was never bad to measure values as precise as possible - it was bad to measure with less than required precision! If you don't need the precision you can report rounded measurement values - if a light bulb has a power consumption of 60.22412 Watts or 60 Watts essentially is not important for a bulb user, but perhaps for a lamp design researcher who optimizes the production process.
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sanj

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #154 on: March 27, 2013, 05:18:57 AM »
REQUEST:
Can anyone guide me to a study which indicates that high MP results in poorer IQ? PLS.
[...]

I cannot guide you to such a study and I am shure you will never find such a study because:

If the per pixel quality stays the same, more pixels give always better IQ until other factors like lens IQ are limiting.

Lower pixel counts help to reduce processing time and filesize which may be valuable for some purposes but nothing less/more. 

I am physicist and it was never bad to measure values as precise as possible - it was bad to measure with less than required precision! If you don't need the precision you can report rounded measurement values - if a light bulb has a power consumption of 60.22412 Watts or 60 Watts essentially is not important for a bulb user, but perhaps for a lamp design researcher who optimizes the production process.

Hmmmm. Then why the resentment to better IQ? That is what I am trying to understand.

Sporgon

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #155 on: March 27, 2013, 05:33:19 AM »
REQUEST:
Can anyone guide me to a study which indicates that high MP results in poorer IQ? PLS.
[...]

I cannot guide you to such a study and I am shure you will never find such a study because:

If the per pixel quality stays the same, more pixels give always better IQ until other factors like lens IQ are limiting.

Lower pixel counts help to reduce processing time and filesize which may be valuable for some purposes but nothing less/more. 

I am physicist and it was never bad to measure values as precise as possible - it was bad to measure with less than required precision! If you don't need the precision you can report rounded measurement values - if a light bulb has a power consumption of 60.22412 Watts or 60 Watts essentially is not important for a bulb user, but perhaps for a lamp design researcher who optimizes the production process.

Hmmmm. Then why the resentment to better IQ? That is what I am trying to understand.


I think may people are saying they would like the improvement in 'IQ' with files that are not as large, because they already have more than enough resolution for a highly portable 35mm type camera.

+ I feel that the reality of much higher MP on FF chip ( or APS for that matter) only manifests itself in 'higher IQ' when the photographer is viewing his images at 50 - 100% on his computer screen. Although this may give the photographer immense satisfaction it is not actually producing a better picture for display to anyone else.

mb66energy

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #156 on: March 27, 2013, 05:59:57 AM »
REQUEST:
Can anyone guide me to a study which indicates that high MP results in poorer IQ? PLS.
[...]

I cannot guide you to such a study and I am shure you will never find such a study because:

If the per pixel quality stays the same, more pixels give always better IQ until other factors like lens IQ are limiting.

Lower pixel counts help to reduce processing time and filesize which may be valuable for some purposes but nothing less/more. 

I am physicist and it was never bad to measure values as precise as possible - it was bad to measure with less than required precision! If you don't need the precision you can report rounded measurement values - if a light bulb has a power consumption of 60.22412 Watts or 60 Watts essentially is not important for a bulb user, but perhaps for a lamp design researcher who optimizes the production process.

Hmmmm. Then why the resentment to better IQ? That is what I am trying to understand.


I think may people are saying they would like the improvement in 'IQ' with files that are not as large, because they already have more than enough resolution for a highly portable 35mm type camera.

+ I feel that the reality of much higher MP on FF chip ( or APS for that matter) only manifests itself in 'higher IQ' when the photographer is viewing his images at 50 - 100% on his computer screen. Although this may give the photographer immense satisfaction it is not actually producing a better picture for display to anyone else.

I forgotten to refer to TECHNICAL IQ in my lines.

Sporgon, your argument (underlined) is IMO correct. I myself are satisfied with my 40D in terms of technical IQ .... FOR WHAT I DO: Photographing things and landscapes because I like to do it and viewing the best pictures for pleasure as 30x40cm (12x16 inch) prints or via a XGA-Beamer (1024 x 768 Pixels, 0,8 MPix (!!!)). A photograph with valuable content and expression works always on 12x16 inch or e.g. a 2 MPix beamer.

Furthermore I see no dramatical technical IQ gain with the 18MPix sensor of the 600D.

But I would take a 48 MP full frame sensor for one reason: Coulors of e.g. monochromatic light sources would be much cleaner if you downscale it to 12 MPix to have 1 red, 2 green and 1 blue subpixel for one final image pixel. Bayer demosaicing gives strong artefacts for e.g. LED tail lights and red sunsets. Therefore I miss a sRAW mode in my 600D which gives me 10 MPix or so.

sanj: "Then why the resentment to better IQ?"
Alternatively I could say "24 MPix for APS-C is bullS___, 10 MPix is enough". BECAUSE I have only 10 MPix at hand and no money to buy a better resolving camera. I think is more or less a psychologial resentment.
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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #156 on: March 27, 2013, 05:59:57 AM »

sanj

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #157 on: March 27, 2013, 06:21:21 AM »
So a higher MP camera, case in point D800, will not show any better IQ due to resolution on my 27" Imac? 

mb66energy

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #158 on: March 27, 2013, 06:41:53 AM »
So a higher MP camera, case in point D800, will not show any better IQ due to resolution on my 27" Imac?

What ist the resolution of your 27" Imac?
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sanj

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #159 on: March 27, 2013, 08:23:19 AM »
I checked, it says 1920x1080 resolution. :)

fonts

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #160 on: March 27, 2013, 02:26:39 PM »
I checked, it says 1920x1080 resolution. :)

It says 2560 x 1440 on Apple website.

mb66energy

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #161 on: March 27, 2013, 02:53:18 PM »
I checked, it says 1920x1080 resolution. :)

Just seen your correction - 2560 x 1440.

There SHOULD BE no difference between e.g. 10 or a 36 MPix camera if both give per pixel sharpness and are downscaled by a good algorithm including some sharpening after downscaling.

What about the idea to prepare 2 photosets with different cameras of a similar (same) object/scene, scale them down to 1920 2560 Pixel width and do the comparison?
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jrista

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #162 on: March 27, 2013, 08:27:34 PM »
WOW, Canon still at least 2 years shy of the Nikon D800 sensor ...  :o
Confirms what I thought all along.

Geriatric ward really missed the boat big time.

How many years did Canon have a 'prosumer' 21 MP FF camera while Nikon's offering in that space had 12 MP?

And after 4.5 years  Canon has reduced the number of MP they had in that camera from 21 to 18, falling behind Nikon.

How many megapixels does the D4 have?

D4 is not the style of camera being referred to here, it is the 5D2/6D/D700/D600.

You you are referring to the likes of the 5D line, then Canon did NOT drop the MP from 21 to 18. They bumped it up from 21 to 22.3 in the 5D III, which is Canon's current high MP FF offering. The 1D X is the replacement for the 1D IV, and the amalgamation of a split 1D line into a single 1D line. The big MP camera will be something new, and will be the ultimate replacement for the 21mp 1Ds III.

Canon has not fallen behind Nikon by "reducing" to 18mp on anything. The direct competitor to the 1D X, the D4, still has fewer megapixels.

I'm beginning to think everything you say, Dilbert, is just trollish fabrications. Get your facts strait, and stop twisting the facts.

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #162 on: March 27, 2013, 08:27:34 PM »

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #163 on: March 27, 2013, 08:34:22 PM »
WOW, Canon still at least 2 years shy of the Nikon D800 sensor ...  :o
Confirms what I thought all along.

Geriatric ward really missed the boat big time.

How many years did Canon have a 'prosumer' 21 MP FF camera while Nikon's offering in that space had 12 MP?

And after 4.5 years  Canon has reduced the number of MP they had in that camera from 21 to 18, falling behind Nikon.

How many megapixels does the D4 have?

D4 is not the style of camera being referred to here, it is the 5D2/6D/D700/D600.

Ok, so which of the 5D2 or 6D has 18 mp then?

My mistake, it should have been 20 and not 18 but the point remains that it was a reduction in MP from the 21 of the 5D2.

WRONG!! AGAIN!!

The 6D has a 20.2mp sensor, however that is a NEW entrant (NOT a fallback design from anything else), and is in direct competition from the D600, another NEW entrant from Nikon. In this case, Canon's 6D is lacking, but it is not like Canon reduced the specs of any previously existing line. Stop falsifying S___!

The 5D III has a 22.3mp sensor. It is officially the successor to the 5D II, which had a 21.1mp sensor. The 5D III IS an improvement over its predecessor. Hell, it is a MONSTER improvement, in every single way, INCLUDING sensor IQ! It is not a direct competitor to the D800, which has deep roots in studio and landscape photography. The 5D III is the top all-around FF camera, with explicit design changes and significant improvements to cater to FF wedding photograpers, street photographers, and any other general-purpose or specialty photography that needs a moderately high frame rate & excellent high ISO performance, which covers most wildlife and bird photographers. There is no apples to apples comparison between a D800 and 5D III, they are apples and oranges. Again, stop falsifying S___!

You are the biggest fact twister in this joint. I don't know what your goal is, but stop cherry picking and cross-comparing non-aligned products to make it sound like your point has merit. You dislike Canon, that is clear. You don't need to lie and obfuscate to make that point...EVERYONE KNOWS.  :o  ::)

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #164 on: March 27, 2013, 08:43:16 PM »
I have both the 5D mk III and the Nikon D800.  The Canon is great at low light, and is a perfect camera for gigs with its real silent shutter.  The Nikon has great DR. End of.  I shoot mainly landscapes, so I want good low ISO performance.  The mk III forces me to use noise reduction at ISO 100 - 400.  This is a terminal disease for me, so I don't use the mmiii for very much at all now.  The mk III is dead in the water as far as I am concerned because of the noise banding in shadows.

You must have a bad 5DIII, for my landscapes it's been quite amazing and the appalling Nikon Live view effort puts me off any Nikon DSLR for landscape work. The D800 might have less banding and slightly more DR, but bracketing and digital blending is still required for high contrast imagery. If you are using NR on your 5DIII, then I would suggest your camera is out of spec, are using poor metering technique or you are rushing your landscape work. If you are pulling so much out of the shadows, then there is obviously a meeting issue or you are cutting courners with your bracketing and blending.
This image below, I combined the foreground and sky exposures into one image, I had to wait for the sun to kiss the foreground but the sun position was then wrong. So taking the two images created a better photo and one which looks balanced for exposure and has a stong visual feel. The difference between 30+ and 20+ mp is mute here and I get to utilise the camera's low 100 iso virtues because the 2 source images were taken using the camera's optimal performance.


I rarely have to use multiple shots with the D800 whereas I often had to with the mk III.  In my experience I can also get more detail from the shadows without getting the noise banding.  I agree that the Live View is far better on the Canon than on the D800, but then I very rarely use Live View in any case as I still prefer to use the viewfinder.  I'll often shoot handheld which is something I do with my medium format 645D also.

My experience:

                                        Canon   5D mkIII                Nikon  D800       

Live view                                 better                                           worse

Silent shooting                        much better                                  hardly much quieter than normal shooting

Dynamic Range                       worse                                            Much better

Low ISO noise                         much worse                                   Much better

Shadow recovery                     much worse                                   Much better


I'm no fanboi.  I judge from my images.  The Mk III can take some great images, but the pattern noise killed it for me.  That being said, I haven't yet sold all my L glass, so I am keeping my head in.  I operate a two camera set up: D800 and the 40 mp Pentax 645D.  The resolution isn't the be all and end all.  BUt is good to have the ability to print to about the same size with both.  The D800 is the best of all three for dynamic range in my experience, but the 645D gives a different feeling.  It also doesn't give me the pattern noise that the Canon does.  And I'm not the only one reporting that.

You realize your last three points, DR, Low ISO Noise, and Shadow Recovery....are really all the same thing, right? Dynamic Range IS effectively a measure of noise, and at low ISO, the D800 has spades of DR. Shadow recovery is simply a benefit of low ISO read noise. So, in your little table, there are really three points total: Live View, Silent Shooting, and Dynamic Range. The 5D III wins hands down on two points. The D800 wins hands down on one. If you throw in High ISO dynamic range (or High ISO SNR), then the 5D III wins on another point.

The sole area where Canon needs to improve is their read noise. If Canon can nip their read noise problems in the bud, Nikon won't stand a chance. Canon has better glass, better high ISO performance, better silent shooting (a huge factor, IMO, in countless situations), and a better AF system. A two-shot HDR blend will also take care of any DR problems you have quite nicely (if you push it to the extremes, a two-shot HDR blend could be separated by 10 stops (+5 and -5), allowing ~16-18 stops of DR in the final 32-bit HDR image...more than enough.) HDR blending is a simple ordeal these days as well. Is it less convenient? Sure, by a very small amount. Enough to warrant spending thousands, maybe tens of thousands, switching brands just to have the D800? Probably not. Canon will figure out their sensor stuff soon enough, and they'll be back in the game.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 09:15:23 PM by jrista »

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #164 on: March 27, 2013, 08:43:16 PM »