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Author Topic: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]  (Read 34765 times)

KyleSTL

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #150 on: March 26, 2013, 05:41:54 PM »
Seriously, some guy just said "very rarely do people shoot in high iso"....are you kidding me?

To be fair, what he said was above ISO 6400.  I suspect he's true, only because until the most recent Canon bodies, shooting above ISO 6400 gave unusable results.  That's not true anymore.  On my 1D X, ISO 6400 is the new ISO 800.   ;)
I am in the minority as I never shoot at ISO 6400 (because that ISO setting does not exist in the 5DC).  :P 
I know I can buy a camera today that produces wonderful results (for my purposes) at ISO 6400, and I would be thrilled to own one of them (6D, 5D3, D600, D800).  I have no desires to have a camera more advanced or feature-rich than the 5D Mark III.  I would also be happy with the 6D.  My hobby and my disposable income do not allow me to invest in a 5D3 or 6D, even though I know I would be completely content with either one.  In my case my upgrade is not limited by what is offered by camera makers, it is limited by budget.

Also, regarding the form factor debate - I would not want a camera with a built-in vertical grip.  Personally, I would not care what size the body is for any future cameras (i.e. 5D-class, 7D-class, 60D-class, Rebel-class, SL1-class, mirrorless) so long as the viewfinder is as big and bright as the 5D and the sensor is full frame.  I enjoy the handling of my 5D, but I also think the 60D is the perfect mix of handling size and weight.
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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #150 on: March 26, 2013, 05:41:54 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #151 on: March 26, 2013, 06:58:10 PM »
LetTheRightLensin,
Quote
"The difference in DR a lot more than one stop. You definitely do not get that holy cow crispness from 20MP at 47"."

Anybody that, like LetTheRightLensin, doesn't believe my image, email me, I'll send you the untouched original RAW and my 47" print file. Take a crop, print it, then tell me it isn't crisp.

I'm not saying it's unusable or a blurry mess but it doesn't have that crazy crispness you get if you print 19" or less from 20MP.

sanj

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #152 on: March 26, 2013, 11:55:40 PM »
Please do, I have been dying to see some optimally exposed shots where the DR of a Canon has substantially ruined a shot yet a Nikon capture would have been perfect.
Here is one from a recent shoot of a prison complex:
http://www.arthurdomagala.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/cell-block-2nd-level.jpg

The common area on the first floor is illuminated by a skylight. The dark gray cell doors on the second level have no lighting on them at all. Exposing correctly for the highlights in this scene severly underexposes the doors. There is no way to set up any additional lighting. Lifting the shadows on the doors in post leads to very obvious pattern noise on the doors. The eventual solution is blending multiple exposures. If this had been shot with an Exmor sensor simply lifting the shadows in a single exposure would not have been a problem.

Another example:
http://www.arthurdomagala.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/IMG_6414-web.jpg

This image was exposed to capture the colors along the horizon. But because of dynamic range limitations, the water that should have been dark blue in the lower left corner was instead black. This requires lifting the shadows again. On the first 20x30 inch print I made, the shadow banding was clearly evident:
http://www.arthurdomagala.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/IMG_6414-20x30crop-no-nr.jpg

I had to go back, reprocess the image multiple times, blend exposures, apply noise reduction with debanding, apply a manual blur brush, and apply grain to even things out.  Again, with a better sensor, this processing scenario would have been greatly simplified.

(A longer explanation can be found at this link: http://www.arthurdomagala.com/blog/2012/04/dynamic-range-canon-dslrs-and-shadow-noise-dealing-with-it/ )

I will just add one more note: "ruined" is your term, not mine. And it's a loaded term. I don't think Canon images are "ruined" by not having more dynamic range. But there are circumstances where it becomes problematic.

Good examples. Thx.

sanj

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #153 on: March 27, 2013, 12:03:32 AM »
All this negativity about advancement in technology!!! Why??
There WILL be a high mpix camera anyone likes it or not.
There WILL be people who will buy it as it will promise better IQ...

We should not fight this and just wait to see if it suits our needs. If it does we will buy it.

I am looking forward to it in a 1d style body... But that is ME.

Just out of interest, what for?

As I said, I am no King Canute, it will all come whether we want it or not, but what, specifically, do you want 40+ MP in a 135 format camera for?

Good question. Simple answer: Higher MP holds the promise of better IQ. And perhaps if you feel (I guarantee you know more about this than me) that 40+ will not work for 135mm format then perhaps Canon will not make it more than 40mp... :)

I remember when cameras where 12mp everyone said that was enoughhhh. But who would buy that now?

sanj

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #154 on: March 27, 2013, 12:06:01 AM »
REQUEST:
Can anyone guide me to a study which indicates that high MP results in poorer IQ? PLS.

I so curious about this negativity towards high MP cameras. I want to read up and understand.

A buddy of mine shifted to Nikon for D800 and sings (literally) its praises.

heptagon

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #155 on: March 27, 2013, 03:41:39 AM »
Would you as a landscaper be disappointed if it only had ISO100, no VF and no Phase-AF?

Could you use ISO25 if it gave you more DR?

Is the Live-View-AF of the EOS-M sufficient for your studio shots?


If you are OK with all these, the new Camera would be the ultimate mirrorless resolution and DR monster which doesn't compromise with general usability wich already is provided by the 1Dx.

mb66energy

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #156 on: March 27, 2013, 04:07:32 AM »
[...]

Seems that the most desirable quality of the D800 would be the impressive dynamic range it offers.

I'd just like to ask, you folks think cameras will ever reach the DR our eyes and brains could resolve and if so, the impact it could have on photography?

[...]

In my opinion:

AD 1 (DR of D800): I think DR will allways help to capture reality as close as possible.

AD 2: Very good question because you included the brain: I think a real 20bit DR sensor with a 20bit DR display will convince our eye and brain to see the real thing.
Physically a 20bit DR sensor is easy to built, but technically it is not. Think about an ISO 6 sensitivity and the capacity to collect large amounts of charge per pixel without saturation ... you will be fine: Pedestal noise is the same but saturation is far away and increases the DR. Physically.
Technically: I think you have to go into the 3rd dimension for sensor pixels charge storage and a good 20bit ADC is available but slow (at the time). 3D-Sensor design is IMO the real challenge because you have to create millions of 3D structures with small tolerances between them in the size of some microns. A 12 Mpix full frame sensor with a DR of 20bit would be sufficient (for the beginning) and blow away a lot of other sensors for some photographic fields.

I am shure that a lot of companies do research to built such (sensor) chips. A lot of chip technology has 3Dish structures just now. Hopefully we will see good sensors soon in Canon cameras - I don't have money/time to reinvest in new glass ... and hopefully we will see large OLED displays which provide DRs of 14 or 16 bit easily.
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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #156 on: March 27, 2013, 04:07:32 AM »

mb66energy

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #157 on: March 27, 2013, 04:23:42 AM »
REQUEST:
Can anyone guide me to a study which indicates that high MP results in poorer IQ? PLS.
[...]

I cannot guide you to such a study and I am shure you will never find such a study because:

If the per pixel quality stays the same, more pixels give always better IQ until other factors like lens IQ are limiting.

Lower pixel counts help to reduce processing time and filesize which may be valuable for some purposes but nothing less/more. 

I am physicist and it was never bad to measure values as precise as possible - it was bad to measure with less than required precision! If you don't need the precision you can report rounded measurement values - if a light bulb has a power consumption of 60.22412 Watts or 60 Watts essentially is not important for a bulb user, but perhaps for a lamp design researcher who optimizes the production process.
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sanj

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #158 on: March 27, 2013, 05:18:57 AM »
REQUEST:
Can anyone guide me to a study which indicates that high MP results in poorer IQ? PLS.
[...]

I cannot guide you to such a study and I am shure you will never find such a study because:

If the per pixel quality stays the same, more pixels give always better IQ until other factors like lens IQ are limiting.

Lower pixel counts help to reduce processing time and filesize which may be valuable for some purposes but nothing less/more. 

I am physicist and it was never bad to measure values as precise as possible - it was bad to measure with less than required precision! If you don't need the precision you can report rounded measurement values - if a light bulb has a power consumption of 60.22412 Watts or 60 Watts essentially is not important for a bulb user, but perhaps for a lamp design researcher who optimizes the production process.

Hmmmm. Then why the resentment to better IQ? That is what I am trying to understand.

Sporgon

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #159 on: March 27, 2013, 05:33:19 AM »
REQUEST:
Can anyone guide me to a study which indicates that high MP results in poorer IQ? PLS.
[...]

I cannot guide you to such a study and I am shure you will never find such a study because:

If the per pixel quality stays the same, more pixels give always better IQ until other factors like lens IQ are limiting.

Lower pixel counts help to reduce processing time and filesize which may be valuable for some purposes but nothing less/more. 

I am physicist and it was never bad to measure values as precise as possible - it was bad to measure with less than required precision! If you don't need the precision you can report rounded measurement values - if a light bulb has a power consumption of 60.22412 Watts or 60 Watts essentially is not important for a bulb user, but perhaps for a lamp design researcher who optimizes the production process.

Hmmmm. Then why the resentment to better IQ? That is what I am trying to understand.


I think may people are saying they would like the improvement in 'IQ' with files that are not as large, because they already have more than enough resolution for a highly portable 35mm type camera.

+ I feel that the reality of much higher MP on FF chip ( or APS for that matter) only manifests itself in 'higher IQ' when the photographer is viewing his images at 50 - 100% on his computer screen. Although this may give the photographer immense satisfaction it is not actually producing a better picture for display to anyone else.

mb66energy

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #160 on: March 27, 2013, 05:59:57 AM »
REQUEST:
Can anyone guide me to a study which indicates that high MP results in poorer IQ? PLS.
[...]

I cannot guide you to such a study and I am shure you will never find such a study because:

If the per pixel quality stays the same, more pixels give always better IQ until other factors like lens IQ are limiting.

Lower pixel counts help to reduce processing time and filesize which may be valuable for some purposes but nothing less/more. 

I am physicist and it was never bad to measure values as precise as possible - it was bad to measure with less than required precision! If you don't need the precision you can report rounded measurement values - if a light bulb has a power consumption of 60.22412 Watts or 60 Watts essentially is not important for a bulb user, but perhaps for a lamp design researcher who optimizes the production process.

Hmmmm. Then why the resentment to better IQ? That is what I am trying to understand.


I think may people are saying they would like the improvement in 'IQ' with files that are not as large, because they already have more than enough resolution for a highly portable 35mm type camera.

+ I feel that the reality of much higher MP on FF chip ( or APS for that matter) only manifests itself in 'higher IQ' when the photographer is viewing his images at 50 - 100% on his computer screen. Although this may give the photographer immense satisfaction it is not actually producing a better picture for display to anyone else.

I forgotten to refer to TECHNICAL IQ in my lines.

Sporgon, your argument (underlined) is IMO correct. I myself are satisfied with my 40D in terms of technical IQ .... FOR WHAT I DO: Photographing things and landscapes because I like to do it and viewing the best pictures for pleasure as 30x40cm (12x16 inch) prints or via a XGA-Beamer (1024 x 768 Pixels, 0,8 MPix (!!!)). A photograph with valuable content and expression works always on 12x16 inch or e.g. a 2 MPix beamer.

Furthermore I see no dramatical technical IQ gain with the 18MPix sensor of the 600D.

But I would take a 48 MP full frame sensor for one reason: Coulors of e.g. monochromatic light sources would be much cleaner if you downscale it to 12 MPix to have 1 red, 2 green and 1 blue subpixel for one final image pixel. Bayer demosaicing gives strong artefacts for e.g. LED tail lights and red sunsets. Therefore I miss a sRAW mode in my 600D which gives me 10 MPix or so.

sanj: "Then why the resentment to better IQ?"
Alternatively I could say "24 MPix for APS-C is bullshit, 10 MPix is enough". BECAUSE I have only 10 MPix at hand and no money to buy a better resolving camera. I think is more or less a psychologial resentment.
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sanj

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #161 on: March 27, 2013, 06:21:21 AM »
So a higher MP camera, case in point D800, will not show any better IQ due to resolution on my 27" Imac? 

mb66energy

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #162 on: March 27, 2013, 06:41:53 AM »
So a higher MP camera, case in point D800, will not show any better IQ due to resolution on my 27" Imac?

What ist the resolution of your 27" Imac?
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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #162 on: March 27, 2013, 06:41:53 AM »

sanj

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #163 on: March 27, 2013, 08:23:19 AM »
I checked, it says 1920x1080 resolution. :)

fonts

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #164 on: March 27, 2013, 02:26:39 PM »
I checked, it says 1920x1080 resolution. :)

It says 2560 x 1440 on Apple website.

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #164 on: March 27, 2013, 02:26:39 PM »