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Author Topic: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]  (Read 33559 times)

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #180 on: March 28, 2013, 03:33:08 PM »
However, look at the 5D Mark III and the D800/E.  The majority of the market didn't give a crap about the 36 vs 22 MP and a lot more 5D Mark III's were sold.  A lot more.

We do have to remember that Canon already had more market share, and thus more users invested into their system. And Canon is a much bigger company than Nikon, with more manufacturing and distribution capacity.

But, I am curious, where are you getting sales figures from to say "a lot more" 5D3's were sold? I hear different things from different people but it's all pretty much anectdotal...no actual figures.

Due to the volume of camera equipment they sell, and the diversity of markets they exist in across the world, Amazon's category rankings are usually used as an indication of the strength of any given product like the 5D III or D800. It is not a perfect example of every reseller or market, but it is a statistically significant measure. Historically, Canon cameras take and maintain the top spots, almost the entire first page in fact, of Amazon's DSLR rankings.

That is not necessarily a direct measure of the quality of a camera, for sure, but it is correlated, and is certainly a measure of popularity. One would think, by reading so many of the comments about Nikon here, that the simple existence of the D800 or D600 and the DR those two cameras are capable of achieving would make them orders of magnitude more popular than any of the competing cameras from Canon. In point of fact, that does not appear to be the case...at least based on Amazon's rankings.

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Point is that a select few of us want a big MP camera, but just because Canon doesn't have one, doesn't mean they are behind or "not in the game."  Quite the opposite when you look at DSLR sales.  In fact, Nikon needs to "get in the game."  The D800/E did absolutely nothing for them on a large scale while the 5D Mark III did a ton for Canon on a large scale.
The way I heard it, for awhile Nikon couldn't manufacture enough D800s to keep up with demand, so I would hardly call that a failure. But again, where are you getting the numbers from to know what impacts these cameras had in terms of sales?

An inability to keep up with demand is a problem Nikon has had for a very long time. I've owned a DSLR for about four years, and was researching them for a couple years before that (drooling and wondering if I should buy one...when I should have just gone out and purchased something). I remember way back in 2006 that Nikon had supply problems.

I don't think that is a measure of popularity...I think that is a measure of Nikon's ability to produce supply in general. They just seem to have supply chain problems. I use Canon gear myself, but I am not against other brands. I love the competitive force Nikon is in the market place. However they seem to be a less than organized company, and that shows in many ways. Just look at their chaotic naming scheme for their DSLRs...I can't imagine a better example of a company that can't get it's S___ strait than Nikon DSLR names. There seems to be no order to when models are released, a severe lack of sequential numeric increase, little or no correlation between models (D700, D800, D600...released in that order, none of which seem to be directly related to each other), etc.

I think if Nikon could produce as many D800s as Canon produced 5D IIIs, I would still bet on the Canon 5D III to be the top seller.

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You can use a 5D Mark III in a lot more situations than a D800/E and that is why it sold more units.
How many more, and how did that relate to each manufacturer's existing market share?

Also, any situation in which you can use a 5DIII, you can use a D800. Neither camera is a limiting factor to the photographer.

I would dispute that. Assuming one uses the D800 as a full-frame camera, and does not use the 1.2x or other crop modes...then you are limited to 4fps. Frame rate is a CRITICAL factor in a lot of photography. AF system is another key factor. The D800 has a good one from a specification standpoint, but it has also had more than its fair share of problems. In the spirit of Nikon (as indicated by their lack of ability to maintain a consistent product supply and their braindead naming scheme), photographers who have contacted support to resolve the issue have been given the runaround, and it took months to even get Nikon to recognize the issue, let alone fix it in any way.

I wouldn't use a camera with a 4fps max frame rate or AF problems for the kind of things I shoot...which is primarily wildlife and birds. I currently use a 7D. It doesn't have the best sensor in the world by ANY means...relative to current sensors of today, the 7D sensor would probably rank at the BOTTOM of the list. But that doesn't matter to me. For one, the IQ is still great, even if it does rank at the bottom of todays list of sensors. More importantly, though, is the fact that it does 8fps. I don't think I could live with less, and if I had to, I wouldn't go lower than 6fps...trying to get the right moment with cameras that max out at 5fps is difficult at best, even with skill. In this respect, the 5D III barely makes the mark, with 6fps. The D800? Nope...4fps just won't cut it. I missed too many shots of just the right moment when using a 4fps DSLR in the past, I'll never do it again.

You could probably swap your statement. "In any situation  you could use the D800, you could use the 5D III as well." The D800 does offer one thing the 5D III cannot directly match mark for mark...dynamic range. I wouldn't say that precludes the use of the 5D III for landscape photography, though. People were getting some of the best landscape photos in the world wit the 5D II! You just can't push shadows around as much...assuming you even need to.

What I really care about, as a purchaser, is what is going to make me want to buy another Canon camera. And I can tell you that another 20-ish megapixel sensor with pattern noise will not do it.

I can't argue with this one at all. I completely agree. Canon shouldn't be releasing any more cameras with 5 year old sensor technology. If the rumors about the 70D are true, I find that to be rather sad...repurposing the old 18mp APS-C sensor AGAIN...well, it is almost becoming insulting. I can sort of understand it...Canon doesn't want to release ground-breaking new technology in a mid-range consumer model. They want to reserve that shining moment for the 7D II. Still...I guess I would choose to release the 70D AFTER the 7D II, with ANOTHER new sensor...something different than the 7D II, maybe lower resolution or something (to help differentiate). However you slice it...Canon definitely needs to stop beating the dead horse...all that's left are a few splinters of bone and a drop of blood here and there...there isn't any more horse left to beat!!  :o
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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #180 on: March 28, 2013, 03:33:08 PM »

bdunbar79

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #181 on: March 28, 2013, 03:48:46 PM »
  In fact, Nikon needs to "get in the game."  The D800/E did absolutely nothing for them on a large scale while the 5D Mark III did a ton for Canon on a large scale.

I'm constantly reading that Canon are beating Nikon but I don't see any evidence. I know I read that Nikon took 40% of the whole dSLR market in the UK last year, which is pretty good!

Also don't forget that those of us with money invested in Canon lenses are less likely to switch to Nikon and that no doubt includes those of us with higher end bodies.

No, its Canon that need to stir themselves, Sony and Nikon have made Canon look stupid. If not stupid then maybe just fast asleep?

Again, sales do not support your statements.  Also, it is not my responsibility to produce proof of sales figures, since they are publicly viewed on amazon.com as an example, at least from their site.  Canon does not look stupid, at least tell execs that at Canon who make a direct profit off sales.  Quite the opposite.  Again, everyone is missing the whole entire point of all of this.  It doesn't matter what YOU want.  Canon does not care what YOU want.  They care what the MASSES want, and that's exactly why they are so successful.  They are a business.  A very small percentage of photogs are going to buy a high end high MP camera.  A very small percentage give a rat's behind about 14 stops of DR vs 11.  Who cares?

If I have a D800 and a 5D3, and I'm shooting weddings, sports, and family events, I'm using the 5D3 for all of that.  And THAT's what MOST professionals with cameras shoot.  It's the same thing with the 1Ds Mark III vs either the 5Dc or 5D2.  The 1Ds3 sold fewer units, by higher-end users, and was not versatile at all.  It went away while the 5D2 continued to smash the market.
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art_d

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #182 on: March 28, 2013, 04:45:21 PM »
art_d

I won't disagree with any of your points.  They're all valid.  For 5D3 sales figures, I used amazon.com.  Now granted, it is not by any means EVERY vendor but I thought a good representative sampling.  But, that logic could be flawed.
Ironically I recall several heated internet forum discussions a few months ago about how "the D800 is outselling the 5DIII" and those people were using Amazon as their source too. I think the only thing we can infer is that when compared during certain time periods on Amazon, for awhile the D800 sold more units, and for awhile the 5DIII sold more units. But we have no way to tally how many total units were sold of each. I do think it is safe to say that each camera has been successful for each manufacturer :)

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I didn't downsample either.  I looked at RAW's shot at ISO 6400 from each, and the D800 files were noisier.  If you must downsample to equal sizes, then my personal use needs didn't need the 36 MP anymore, since I was downsampling so much.
Right, but that's sort of missing the point. It is obvious the D800 has the advantage in resolution, but people tend to think because of that it has a disadvantage in noise. Which it does not. Because if you equalize the resolution by downsampling to the 5DIII's resolution, there is no practical difference. So, you can use the D800 either to produce high resolution 36mp images, or low noise 22mp images that are as good as you could get from a 5DIII. Conversely, the same is not true of the 5DIII. A 22mp 5DIII image will match a 22mp D800 image, but you cannot upscale a 5DIII image to 36mp and get the D800 resolution.

To put it another way, using the D800 at high ISO will not prevent you from getting images as good as a 5DIII at high ISO while still giving you the high megapixel option if you want it.

Now, that is of course not taking into account the combination of cameras with lenses. As we've already discussed Canon lenses will often be better than Nikon counterparts. And there are other intangible factors too, like Nikon's terrible live view implementation. Those are the reasons I'm still shooting Canon (though still with a 5DII ;) )

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #183 on: March 29, 2013, 10:03:58 PM »
Why does this turn into a discussion on sales?  I just want some new news on the camera!  LOL!   ;D
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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #184 on: April 11, 2013, 02:57:34 PM »
Why does this turn into a discussion on sales?  I just want some new news on the camera!  LOL!   ;D

I think its because some people seem to want to come on here and convince everyone that they would be better of buying Nikon's. Quite frankly if I got pictures as bad as they do  ::), if the samples they put on here are to be believed, I would change. But I don't so I won't  :)

I still cant see the point of all those Megapixels, I was hoping that some one might tell what they do with them all. So far apart from some pixel peeping I haven't got much idea what they are going to do with them all.

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #185 on: April 11, 2013, 05:43:43 PM »
well, the megapixels gives you freedom , the DR also.
IF Canon has the same camera as Nikon, what should your answer be then?
I do not like resolution, or a great DR

I like 24L II, 50L, 85L, 135L. :|

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #186 on: April 11, 2013, 07:15:53 PM »
Why does this turn into a discussion on sales?  I just want some new news on the camera!  LOL!   ;D

I think its because some people seem to want to come on here and convince everyone that they would be better of buying Nikon's. Quite frankly if I got pictures as bad as they do  ::), if the samples they put on here are to be believed, I would change. But I don't so I won't  :)

I still cant see the point of all those Megapixels, I was hoping that some one might tell what they do with them all. So far apart from some pixel peeping I haven't got much idea what they are going to do with them all.

Ever heard of Gigapan?
Everyone using those will be grateful when higher resolution cameras are more common.
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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #186 on: April 11, 2013, 07:15:53 PM »

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #187 on: April 11, 2013, 10:02:42 PM »
nice, I have them also, but DXO means that the sigma 85mm is better than my Canon 85/1.2mk2, and cheaper.
what to do?what to do?

The sigma 85mm does not render better than the 85L II. It just doesn't.

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #188 on: April 11, 2013, 11:23:19 PM »
...
You realize your last three points, DR, Low ISO Noise, and Shadow Recovery....are really all the same thing, right? Dynamic Range IS effectively a measure of noise,

No, DR is not a measure of noise. You could have 3 stops of DR and lots of noise. Similarly you could have 3 stops of DR and no noise. They are not combined.

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Shadow recovery is simply a benefit of low ISO read noise. So, in your little table, there are really three points total: Live View, Silent Shooting, and Dynamic Range. The 5D III wins hands down on two points. The D800 wins hands down on one. If you throw in High ISO dynamic range (or High ISO SNR), then the 5D III wins on another point.

Or to rephrase this, Canon wins on using the camera but the Nikon wins on producing quality images. Personally, I don't even know why "Silent Shooting" makes it to the list.

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A two-shot HDR blend will also take care of any DR problems you have quite nicely (if you push it to the extremes, a two-shot HDR blend could be separated by 10 stops (+5 and -5), allowing ~16-18 stops of DR in the final 32-bit HDR image...more than enough.) HDR blending is a simple ordeal these days as well. Is it less convenient? Sure, by a very small amount.

Sure, but you can do the exact same HDR tricks with the D800 and to even greater effect than with Canon.

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Enough to warrant spending thousands, maybe tens of thousands, switching brands just to have the D800?

Probably not. Canon will figure out their sensor stuff soon enough, and they'll be back in the game.

What if Canon can't/don't figure it out?

How long has it been since the 5D Mark II came out now?
And in all that time, we haven't seen any evidence of a sensor that is any better - or rather Nikon have made great advances with their sensors, Canon haven't moved...

jrista

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #189 on: April 12, 2013, 12:19:12 AM »
...
You realize your last three points, DR, Low ISO Noise, and Shadow Recovery....are really all the same thing, right? Dynamic Range IS effectively a measure of noise,

No, DR is not a measure of noise. You could have 3 stops of DR and lots of noise. Similarly you could have 3 stops of DR and no noise. They are not combined.

Your thinking photon shot noise. I mean read noise. Dynamic range is the ratio from the brightest highlight (the clipping point) and the read noise floor (that may be the RMS, the maximum, the square root, depends on the exact method of determining DR). However you calculate it, dynamic range is specifically limited by read noise.

Quote
Shadow recovery is simply a benefit of low ISO read noise. So, in your little table, there are really three points total: Live View, Silent Shooting, and Dynamic Range. The 5D III wins hands down on two points. The D800 wins hands down on one. If you throw in High ISO dynamic range (or High ISO SNR), then the 5D III wins on another point.

Or to rephrase this, Canon wins on using the camera but the Nikon wins on producing quality images. Personally, I don't even know why "Silent Shooting" makes it to the list.

Silent Shooting makes the list because a huge number of customers asked for a quieter shutter. Canon gave their customers what they asked for. Same deal with the AF system...Canon gave a very vocal and very large user base exactly what they wanted: a better AF system. Again, same deal with fewer megapixels and better high ISO. That was probably the biggest thing Canon customers asked for, including myself and pretty much everyone I know.

When it comes to listening to their customers, Canon wins every time in every way. Can't really get better than that, and given their track record, it shouldn't be long before Canon gives their customers something with better DR as well. The only reason they haven't is because the DR game only really changed with the D800, and that was released about the same time as the 5D III. Now people are asking for it, and I have no doubt Canon will deliver.

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A two-shot HDR blend will also take care of any DR problems you have quite nicely (if you push it to the extremes, a two-shot HDR blend could be separated by 10 stops (+5 and -5), allowing ~16-18 stops of DR in the final 32-bit HDR image...more than enough.) HDR blending is a simple ordeal these days as well. Is it less convenient? Sure, by a very small amount.

Sure, but you can do the exact same HDR tricks with the D800 and to even greater effect than with Canon.

You would only have about two extra stops of DR with the D800, regardless of whether your talking about a single-shot context or HDR context. We already knew the D800 had two extra stops of DR, though.

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Enough to warrant spending thousands, maybe tens of thousands, switching brands just to have the D800?

Probably not. Canon will figure out their sensor stuff soon enough, and they'll be back in the game.

What if Canon can't/don't figure it out?

Hypothetically speaking...nothing changes. People are still buying Canon cameras in huge volumes. Canon's worldwide market share wavers up and down a few percent every few years. I don't foresee that changing. DR is not the only thing that matters, certainly doesn't seem to be impacting Canon's sales to any meaningful degree. So, those who want more DR will move off to Nikon, or add Nikon to their kits, and keep using both brands.

Either way, assuming Canon is literally incapable of competing on the DR front, I don't really foresee any major change, not unless someone comes out with a 16-bit ADC with 15 stops or more of DR. If that happens, then I think the game would change. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

How long has it been since the 5D Mark II came out now?

Irrelevant.

And in all that time, we haven't seen any evidence of a sensor that is any better - or rather Nikon have made great advances with their sensors, Canon haven't moved...

Why is it that you Nikon radical fanboys refuse to see the areas where Canon sensors HAVE improved? Canon sensors HAVE improved! Canon sensors currently have the best noise performance I've ever seen at high ISO. They also support the fastest readout rates of any DSLR sensor on the market at the current time (14fps @ ~19mp, or approximately a 500MB/second throughput rate).  I've seen clean, entirely usable ISO 51200 sports shots with the 1D X. I've seen usable ISO 12800 shots from several generations of Nikon cameras, but nothing at ISO 51200 from a Nikon that looked truly usable or anywhere nearly as clean as a 1D X shot...too much color noise, too much loss of detail (probably because every setting above ISO 12800 is a "fake" expanded setting, which is really just the same as ISO 12800 with a post-process digital exposure lift....we've been able to do that with software for years.)

It is not 100% about low ISO DR. The greater majority of photographers who use DSLR cameras, which includes sports, aviation, wildlife, bird, event, wedding and street photographers as well as photojournalists, tend to shoot at higher ISO settings. Much beyond ISO 400, DR is limited by physics. Even significant improvements in Q.E. result in marginal improvements in DR, if any. The only thing that really matters at high ISO is SNR.

In this respect, Canon owns the market. It's WHY they own the market. Canon cameras offer the best tools that support the greatest majority of photographers for the widest variety of photographic goals and styles. Canon sensors have most definitely improved in the last four years. The 5D II sensor wouldn't stand a chance against any one of the sensors from the 1D X, 5D III, 6D, hell even the SD1 seems to have a damn good sensor. DR isn't the only thing that matters, and while it may be the most important factor to some photographers, it is really the least important factor to most photographers.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 12:26:30 AM by jrista »
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bdunbar79

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #190 on: April 12, 2013, 12:30:22 AM »
Yeah, because the 5D2 sensor and the 1DX sensor are the same.  No improvement whatsoever.
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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #191 on: April 12, 2013, 09:49:06 AM »
well, the megapixels gives you freedom , the DR also.
IF Canon has the same camera as Nikon, what should your answer be then?
I do not like resolution, or a great DR

I like 24L II, 50L, 85L, 135L. :|

I have those as well...very nice lenses indeed. The 24L II is a real gem, I tried the Nikkor version on a D7000 when it was first launched and I was quite dissapointed in what I saw. It just seemed to miss focus a lot (randomly) and I didn't like the pictures from it either.
The 50L...well it's an odd ball but unique lens...I hope Canon replaces this with something worthy of the L moniker. My 85IIL is my most used Tele, it's just sublime. The results wide open are so sharp and beautiful...a truely unique and amazing piece of glass. The 135L is again quite unique. I don't use mine as much as I used to, great results and lovely images. But these days I tend to go for my 70-200 f2.8 L IS II (I use it for larger wedding receptions). I'm kind of hoping Canon will replace it with an IS version which is F1.8...but still just as sweet optically! If Canon did this and made the MFD a lot closer, I could sell my 100mm IS L Macro and use this at weddings a lot more. My real sweet heart lens is still my 35mm f1.4 L, I've not tried the Nikkor or Sigma versions but I've been using my Canon copy for about 5 years now and I'm still thrilled with it. 
When I look at the Nikkor lens catalogue, there's nothing there which particularly inspires me. I've got better options in the Canon range.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 09:51:28 AM by GMCPhotographics »

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #192 on: April 12, 2013, 10:01:25 AM »
nice, I have them also, but DXO means that the sigma 85mm is better than my Canon 85/1.2mk2, and cheaper.
what to do?what to do?

The sigma 85mm does not render better than the 85L II. It just doesn't.

I didnt say that, I say that DXO gives the Sigma lens higher score than 85/1,2 mk2

There is more to a lens that just a score.  ;)

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #192 on: April 12, 2013, 10:01:25 AM »

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #193 on: April 12, 2013, 10:29:11 AM »
nice, I have them also, but DXO means that the sigma 85mm is better than my Canon 85/1.2mk2, and cheaper.
what to do?what to do?

The sigma 85mm does not render better than the 85L II. It just doesn't.

I didnt say that, I say that DXO gives the Sigma lens higher score than 85/1,2 mk2

There is more to a lens that just a score.  ;)

Their 85IIL must have been seriously out of spec and shows just how laughable DXO testing really is. My copy (which I use wide open all the time) is sharper than my 135IIL and 70-200 f2.8 L IS II. It's a stunning optic. I've tried the Sigma, it's was nice but not in the Canon league. It's Focussing was erratic and the images just don't look as nice....plus it's not quite as bright and certainly not as well built. The Canon 85IIL is an engineering masterpiece. My copy is now 5 years old and still looks new and it's had a hard life....good luck with your Sigma in that regard. I've had a lot of Sigma glass over the years and I've completely lost faith in the brand.

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #194 on: April 12, 2013, 11:34:47 AM »
Agreed, but to say the 85L II is sharper than the 135L is stretch. Even though we're comparing razors to razors.

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Re: Big Megapixel Development Announcement in the Fall? [CR2]
« Reply #194 on: April 12, 2013, 11:34:47 AM »