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Author Topic: 6D Autofocus not impressive  (Read 81923 times)

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2013, 04:31:35 PM »
I also did some night tests with some other photographers (interesting because they were both nikon shooters, one on a d800, one on a d3).  They both had their cameres with them so we did alot of matching our settings and comparing.  The center point locked on in some pretty damn dark conditions.

both shots at ISO 25,600, 50mm 1.4 lens at 1.4.  One was darker than I think I will ever really need to shoot in with no on cam light or off cam light - the other had the subject in deep shadows and the big street light heavily back lighting him, not exactly wedding lighting but I could see that kind of situation occurring.  The focus locked pretty quick in the center. 

On camera back previews, the 6d's images looked pretty damn good next to the same settings and focal length nikon shots.  The d800 did look nicer at higher ISO's than the d3.  6d looked better than the d3, and i'd say the d800 was pretty close to the 6d but there is a whole lot more room to crop on the d800.  I'm waiting to see what the other guys posts are like (seen one from the d3 shooter and the 6d does blow the d3 out of the water at high ISO).  We'll see what the d800 images are like.

All in all, I have a feeling that the 6d will in fact become my backup body.  If i didn't already have a 5d3 then it would be a no brainer, but, are the things missing from the 6d enough to warrant shelling out an extra grand for a backup body?  I'm leaning towards no as the answer.   After the hands on with it, if I were to opt to not snag a 6d, the AF wouldn't be the deal breaker, it would be the lack of a sync port.  I like to have the option of having a flash on cam for fill and have off cam lighting.  Is that enough of an issue to warrant the extra cost?  (I will be eyeing the used and refurb market!).     
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 04:56:02 PM by Chuck Alaimo »
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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2013, 04:31:35 PM »

Mark D5 TEAM II

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2013, 01:11:27 AM »
Have the 6D AF bashers actually used the camera extensively? :P Otherwise it's more likely regurgitated talking points from the social media echo chamber that originated from the ID-10-T department.

From this scientific and repeatable test, it is blindingly evident that it has more consistent & precise AF than the D800, 5D2 & 7D:

http://www.reikan.co.uk/focalweb/index.php/2012/12/af-consistency-comparison-nikon-canon-phase-detect-contrast-detect/
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Marsu42

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2013, 10:43:13 AM »
All in all, I have a feeling that the 6d will in fact become my backup body.  If i didn't already have a 5d3 then it would be a no brainer, but, are the things missing from the 6d enough to warrant shelling out an extra grand for a backup body?  I'm leaning towards no as the answer.   After the hands on with it, if I were to opt to not snag a 6d, the AF wouldn't be the deal breaker, it would be the lack of a sync port.  I like to have the option of having a flash on cam for fill and have off cam lighting.  Is that enough of an issue to warrant the extra cost?  (I will be eyeing the used and refurb market!).   

Thanks for the review, I you have a 5d3 and don't think the less precise 6d af is a deal breaker (except for sports and so on) it certainly will do ok for me.

Btw in anticipation of my 6d purchase I have bought a pc sync hotshoe adapter with ettl passthrough from ebay/china, except for the added bulk I really don't see any problem with not having it in the camera - actually the other way around, I  don't like sticking cables like mini-usb into my camera at all.

From this scientific and repeatable test, it is blindingly evident that it has more consistent & precise AF than the D800, 5D2 & 7D

The "bashing" stems from the lack of advancement, the 5d2 & 7d are years old cameras, and even a recent Rebel has a better af system than the expensive 6d (except for low light & fw customizations).

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2013, 12:33:55 PM »
2 things I found out last night that are negatives --- one is odd - if you try to use the remote wifi ap with off cam lighting, it won't pop the flashes.  It will pop the flash if the flash is on camera.  Why would that be? 

The other thing, - if the camera goes into sleep mode, it disappears from the available networks on the phone, so there is no way to 'wake' the camera up.   I had been envisioning setting up the 6d in spots I would not be able to access during wedding ceremonies.  So I need to make sure there is a way to have the camera never go into sleep mode fort hat idea to work.  Glad to find that out now and not in the middle of a ceremony - that would be a good way to not get a single shot!
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Marsu42

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2013, 03:57:34 PM »
2 things I found out last night that are negatives --- one is odd - if you try to use the remote wifi ap with off cam lighting, it won't pop the flashes.  It will pop the flash if the flash is on camera.  Why would that be?

Probably because this is the 1.0 release of the app, Canon delivered that in the short dev timeframe for the 6d when panicking about the Nikon d600 release. Pray someone revers engineers the communication so that 3rd party apps are possible...

The other thing, - if the camera goes into sleep mode, it disappears from the available networks on the phone, so there is no way to 'wake' the camera up.

I already read about that, it's most likely due to the 6d wifi position as an "amateur" travel cam where long battery life is important. But it's still completely idiotic because Canon also markets the wifi feature for wildlife, the only current workaround until a fw update is to do something with the app every now and then to prevent sleep mode. There are two things you can do:

1. Bug Canon with this bug, they acknowledge problems after many complaints in their official forum (like the 5d3 af assist bug): http://forums.usa.canon.com/t5/EOS/bd-p/eos

2. Use Magic Lantern, I just posted a feature request for an option to disable 6d sleep mode (can you please check if the problem description if accurate)? http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5008.msg29874#msg29874


Chuck Alaimo

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2013, 04:17:03 PM »
2 things I found out last night that are negatives --- one is odd - if you try to use the remote wifi ap with off cam lighting, it won't pop the flashes.  It will pop the flash if the flash is on camera.  Why would that be?

Probably because this is the 1.0 release of the app, Canon delivered that in the short dev timeframe for the 6d when panicking about the Nikon d600 release. Pray someone revers engineers the communication so that 3rd party apps are possible...

The other thing, - if the camera goes into sleep mode, it disappears from the available networks on the phone, so there is no way to 'wake' the camera up.

I already read about that, it's most likely due to the 6d wifi position as an "amateur" travel cam where long battery life is important. But it's still completely idiotic because Canon also markets the wifi feature for wildlife, the only current workaround until a fw update is to do something with the app every now and then to prevent sleep mode. There are two things you can do:

1. Bug Canon with this bug, they acknowledge problems after many complaints in their official forum (like the 5d3 af assist bug): http://forums.usa.canon.com/t5/EOS/bd-p/eos

2. Use Magic Lantern, I just posted a feature request for an option to disable 6d sleep mode (can you please check if the problem description if accurate)? http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5008.msg29874#msg29874

I could get the flash issue if it didn't trigger the on cam flash, why it ignores the trigger is a big I don't know or get it...i guess canon just assumed the people buying this body wouldn't be interested or even have the capability to do off camera lighting...

Oh, and I was digging around the menus - there is an option to disable the auto power off.  gonna play around tonight and see if that fixes things (it should, as long as the cam is on and the phone is connected it should work!)  I just don't want to end up buying this camera thinking i can set it up behind the alter to get shots of brides and grooms only to find that i can't activate the camera!
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Marsu42

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2013, 04:27:27 PM »
Oh, and I was digging around the menus - there is an option to disable the auto power off.  gonna play around tonight and see if that fixes things (it should, as long as the cam is on and the phone is connected it should work!)

Please do, because as I wrote I've read this before - there seems to be a hard limit to how long wifi can stay active, but maybe I'm mistaken (in this case, I'd remove the Magic Lantern feature request :-o).

Reason is: I also want to buy a 6d which for my budget is very expensive, so also don't want to end up with some hidden show stoppers (like the current 5d3 af assist bug - but Canon might fix that now 1+ years after camera release...)

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2013, 04:27:27 PM »

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2013, 04:44:55 PM »
Oh, and I was digging around the menus - there is an option to disable the auto power off.  gonna play around tonight and see if that fixes things (it should, as long as the cam is on and the phone is connected it should work!)

Please do, because as I wrote I've read this before - there seems to be a hard limit to how long wifi can stay active, but maybe I'm mistaken (in this case, I'd remove the Magic Lantern feature request :-o).

Reason is: I also want to buy a 6d which for my budget is very expensive, so also don't want to end up with some hidden show stoppers (like the current 5d3 af assist bug - but Canon might fix that now 1+ years after camera release...)

similar here, my wedding biz is really just beginning and I am stepping up the ladder of probably not making as much as I could (I see my value, but I need a few more seasons to have perceived value).  And I am getting married this year too, so, money is tight.  Yes, the 6d has many little downsides.  But are those downsides enough to warrant spending an extra 1K for a second 5d3?  I'm still unsure.  Next season I should be doing better and my expenses will be lower without a wedding to plan.  If grab a 6d this season, I should be able to swap that out next year (and by next year there will be more used and refurb 5d3's kicking around). 

Here are a few more shots from my rental tests!
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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2013, 11:33:18 AM »
2 things I found out last night that are negatives --- one is odd - if you try to use the remote wifi ap with off cam lighting, it won't pop the flashes.  It will pop the flash if the flash is on camera.  Why would that be? 

I assume you're using a radio trigger?  It won't work if you're using the WiFi in Live View.  If you "click" the little camera icon and shoot in normal view it works.  At least on mine.   I've never been able to get my off-camera flash to trigger (using YN RF-602s) in Live View.  Seems to be related to the old issue of non-Canon flashes not working in Live View.  No different than if I was tethered.

Edit:  I haven't tried this yet, may poke around this evening.  I never looked into it much because Live View doesn't do me any good if I'm mostly using flash.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/strobist/discuss/72157632313631392/
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 11:40:40 AM by Skirball »

CarlTN

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2013, 04:49:37 PM »
X-vision, thanks for posting the excellent AF module picture comparison!

You can customize it in the menu, so that it jumps straight to 100% when you press magnify.

Thanks, I discovered that without much time.  Now my main ergonomic/control complaint, is that it doesn’t display file quality/resolution on the top screen (RAW or jpg), but I can live with that.  It has a lot of nice customizable functions to the buttons.  I was surprised at all the choices which can be assigned to the DOF preview button.  The multi-control dial, is far easier to use than I feared.  I don’t miss the thumb joystick too much at all.  Obviously a joystick better, but it’s just not as big of a deal as I thought.

So far I am the opposite of a 6D cynic/nitpicker.  I’m in love with the 6D, and can’t believe how well-designed and elegant the overall package is, and how light-weight the body is.  It feels lighter than my 50D, is the same size, yet feels slightly more compact.  The grip, the buttons, it all feels better than every other Canon body I’ve held in my hands (especially the 7D and the 5D3…their buttons are too mushy, their bodies too wide for their height…kind of like a kardashian).  I’ve held them all (save for bodies older than the 1Ds Mk3).  I foresee living with the 6D for 5 or 6 years, at least.  I had thought of just keeping the 50D, but am beginning to think I don’t even need it, or any crop camera as a backup, or for birding (at least for now).  I will take more time to consider, especially after getting the right TC to use on my long zoom lens…to compare to the crop body without the TC.  Of course, it would help if future firmware allows AF at f/8, like it will do for the 5D3.  Might not happen of course.

I also can’t believe the low noise of the 6D.  With all NR disabled, the RAW files look to be cleaner than I thought they would be.  ISO 20,000 is quite usable, 16,000 very usable, and 10,000 is as clean as my 50D at 1000 (all of these require a bit of NR in post, but less than I thought).  By comparison, the 1D4 I rented last fall, of course was like a Formula 1 camera in its responsiveness and speed.  But it is also obviously large and heavy (unlike an F1 car), and could not AF in low light.  Its files at ISO 8000, were about the same noise content as the 6D at 20,000, or 25,600 (depending on exposure compensation amount).  Really 10,000 on the 1D4, is about like 25,600 on the 6D.

As for how the noise directly compares to the 5D3, I haven’t done enough comparing, and don’t feel the need to.  The luminance noise does seem less than the 5D3 files I’ve edited, around ISO 4000, and that was really my main concern.  The AF and extra weather sealing are the reason to buy the 5D3, not the file quality, from where I sit.  Both of those aspects are obviously a big deal to many of you, of course.  I could just point out that you should sell your 5D3 and buy a 1DX, if those are your main concerns.


CarlTN

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2013, 04:57:22 PM »
As for the low light AF ability of the 6D, all I can say is the reviews that have claimed it didn’t work, were either lying or propaganda.  It does indeed work quite accurately, especially with center point only selected, as I am accustomed to doing on the 50D.  I even got tack sharp focusing on dark chair legs set against medium-dark carpet, in a very dark room (lit by equivalent of a couple of candles on the opposite side of the room)…at night, with my 135 attached.

I have yet to try the 6D in servo mode with my “slower” long zoom.  But with my 135 f/2, it’s as fast as the 1D Mark 4…obviously not as accurate (in good light, while far superior in low light)…but that’s really saying something.  I can see getting a consistent 7 out of 10 keepers with very fast moving objects, where the 1D4 would be 8 to 10, out of 10….and a 1DX would essentially always be 10 out of 10…at least in the situations I would put them through.  I can live with this. 

Yes, the frame rate is only 4.5.  It should have been 5.5 like the D600.  That, is really my main complaint about the 6D.  But I can certainly live with 4.5, as I am used to mostly using my 50D in the slow 3 fps burst, rather than 6.  Even 6, or 8…is quite slow compared to 10 or more.  If I need more speed, there’s always the future 7D2, or a 1DX, or whatever else comes down the pike…

Will I replace it with a 5D3?  I don’t foresee it.  Yes the 5D3 AF is nice, but it’s a compromise, and I especially would want more than 6 fps with such nice AF.  Is there that much difference between 6 fps and 4.5?  Not really.  Are all 6 going to be keepers via the 5D3?  Maybe so, maybe not.  Will 3 out of 4.5 be keepers via the 6D?  It sure seems so.  Would I prefer a 1 series body over the 5D3?  Most assuredly, despite the added cost.  I may wind up buying a 1DX before it gets replaced (after the price comes down a bit more), but at this time I just don’t need one.  I have a feeling I will be making at least a bit more money now that I have the 6D.


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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2013, 04:57:44 PM »
…their buttons are too mushy, their bodies too wide for their height…kind of like a kardashian).  I’ve held them all...

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CarlTN

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2013, 05:02:59 PM »
As for capturing butterflies in flight in servo mode…well that’s a fool’s errand with most any body, unless there is only sky or other featureless (or dark) background behind the butterfly as it flies along.  With a featureless background, I have no doubt I could get plenty of keepers with the 6D in servo mode with my 135 f/2.  Key is to select all AF points.  Unlike the 6D detractor snobs on here, I suggest that these narrowly spaced points hand off to each other just fine in servo mode.  However, if your background is difficult, use single shot mode and continuous-half press of the shutter, with center-point-only selected.  Or even try manual focus.  You can’t just expect the camera to do all the thinking for you.  Even a 1DX needs good technique to get 10 out of 10 keepers.  Just my two cents.

Certainly the AF servo speed and other adjustments of the 6D’s AF are welcome.  I have yet to fiddle with them much.  They seem similar to the 1D4’s adjustments.  Of course it had a lot of points to choose from, and faster processor control of its AF.  But like the 6D, there were plenty of detractors of the 1D4’s AF performance as well.  The interface was not user-friendly or intuitive enough, and ultimately it could not match that of the Nikon D3s.  I bet most of those people who derided the 1D4, didn’t buy a 1DX, nor did they even own a 1D4.  Most bought a 5D3, which is not a fast camera.  6 fps burst, is not fast.  10 is fast.  12 is faster.  It makes me wonder just how awesome the 1DX successor will be.  Of course it will have an initial street price in the $8499 range…so most will buy a future 5D4 for $4200, and claim it’s essentially as good for half the price.  It won’t be.  Snobs have to buy something, and have to have something to make fun of.

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2013, 05:02:59 PM »

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2013, 06:00:39 PM »
Another 6D convert here. It's camera better than specs showcase it.

I had 5d Mk III, sold it and replaced with 6D. Saved $1000, and have lost a touch in auto-focus capability.

I used to get 6-6.5 good frames out of 10 with Mk III, now I get 5 with 6D. This is trying to capture very lively toddlers from close distance and shallow DOF. If I move further, results improve a lot with both cameras...

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2013, 09:09:01 PM »
Hey Marsu, here's one from the little mini wedding today.  I haven't spent too much time with the files, but this one I liked enough to give it a quick post process...

Also, got to shoot an event with the 6d today - dyngus day...there was dancing..
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

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Re: 6D Autofocus not impressive
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2013, 09:09:01 PM »