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Author Topic: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?  (Read 32128 times)

J.R.

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #120 on: April 22, 2013, 01:08:36 PM »
... I never quite understood why people say that FF and APS-C have different DoF (provided the same optics, aperture, and distance to the object are used).

Marketing through misinformation, obfuscation, leading and derogation.

DoF is related to angle of view and aperture
. To get the same angle of view at the same distance from the subject, on FF you need a longer focal length (1.6x if we consider a Canon APSC) than on crop.

Then, because f/stops are related to focal length, if you keep the same aperture on both systems you'll see that on crop you end up with a narrower iris. This is why you have more DoF ;)

No it isn't, and this common misunderstanding is why people keep failing to get their heads around this.

Depth of field is a function of two metrics alone, reproduction ratio (how big the subject is projected onto the capturing device)  and aperture. Now if you want to make comparisons across sensor sizes you have to make a standard for reproduction size, it doesn't matter what the standard is, but if you don't you can't make relevant comparisons.

"DOF is determined by subject magnification at the film / sensor plane and the selected lens aperture or f-number." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field

I would strongly suggest people stop talking crap and start reading and learning something authoritative about the subjects they seem so intent on teaching other people about.

+1 ... Regardless of the lens you use, the DOF for a similarly framed subject using the same sized sensor will be unchanged.

@pbd ... what happened to your post count dude?
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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #120 on: April 22, 2013, 01:08:36 PM »

Albi86

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #121 on: April 22, 2013, 01:50:02 PM »
... I never quite understood why people say that FF and APS-C have different DoF (provided the same optics, aperture, and distance to the object are used).

Marketing through misinformation, obfuscation, leading and derogation.

DoF is related to angle of view and aperture
. To get the same angle of view at the same distance from the subject, on FF you need a longer focal length (1.6x if we consider a Canon APSC) than on crop.

Then, because f/stops are related to focal length, if you keep the same aperture on both systems you'll see that on crop you end up with a narrower iris. This is why you have more DoF ;)

No it isn't, and this common misunderstanding is why people keep failing to get their heads around this.

Depth of field is a function of two metrics alone, reproduction ratio (how big the subject is projected onto the capturing device)  and aperture. Now if you want to make comparisons across sensor sizes you have to make a standard for reproduction size, it doesn't matter what the standard is, but if you don't you can't make relevant comparisons.

"DOF is determined by subject magnification at the film / sensor plane and the selected lens aperture or f-number." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field

I would strongly suggest people stop talking crap and start reading and learning something authoritative about the subjects they seem so intent on teaching other people about.

Can you provide an example of how reasoning in terms of angle of view may lead to errors?

In my book same reproduction ratio = same framing = same angle of view.

Albi86

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #122 on: April 22, 2013, 02:13:03 PM »
Ok, maybe I see your point if you consider events like focus breathing or other alterations of the linear ratio between angle of view and reproduction ratio. I agree with you that in those cases it's not 100% correct to reason in terms of angle of view - but they are specific circumstances. In usual conditions the relationship is linear enough to take the approximation for good. If nothing else, reproduction ratio is a nebulous term that is hard to use in a conversation if you aim at being understood. The approximation to angle of view is much more manageable and gives readily comparable figures.

privatebydesign

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #123 on: April 22, 2013, 04:03:24 PM »
Look, the stuff I wrote is not my personal opinion, it is accepted fact and terminology with references.

You can't have a meaningful discussion if common facts and terminology are not accepted and understood. Too much misinformation is constantly regurgitated, the funny thing is we are talking about digital cameras, it is so easy to test this stuff for yourself it's comical.

I understand the mentality of collectors, enthusiasts, armchair pros and all manner of subdivisions of the measurebator phenomena, and there is absolutely nothing wrong to me in owning every lens and camera Canon ever made and never using any of it.

What I don't understand is the almost fanatical reluctance to actually learn what you are talking about! Why the clamor for repeating completely erroneous and incorrect opinions when the truth, even if you can't be bothered to get away from your computer for twenty minutes to actually see for yourself, is out there, just one click away.

"Can you provide an example of how reasoning in terms of angle of view may lead to errors?"

Several, just start to look into macro shooting to see where you logic completely breaks down in a common real world scenario. But the fact is that an angle of view necessitates knowing many more variables that are not related to initial dof. For instance you need to know the focal length and the sensor size to work out an angle of view, but even then without knowing subject distance you are no better off, you still can't work out dof. You don't need to know sensor size, subject distance or focal length to work out dof, just aperture and subject magnification. You can work out subject magnification by knowing sensor size, focal length and subject distance, and voila, you have a dof calculator! All it is doing with those numbers is working out subject magnification, throw in aperture and you can, eventually, work out dof.

It is like saying you need 1/250 for that exposure, well that means nothing, 1/250 at what aperture and iso? But it you tell somebody with any kind of exposure understanding "that scene is EV 10" they can work out any combination of aperture, shutter speed and iso to get the most relevant exposure for the desired image.

bigal1000

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #124 on: April 22, 2013, 04:50:10 PM »
***Is the 1DX really the Flagship Stills Camera?***

I ask this question because, as I sit here typing, I am thinking ... is there a camera which is uncompromising in image quality, features, and performance?  When I read in the forums and search online I find TONS of critisizm about Canon bodies, Canon lenses, and the company.  Yet, I have Canon, I've always had Canon.  Ever since Andre Agessi said I should.

So, I throw this question out there.  Does Canon make a body that is just flat out great?  IQ is NASA good?  Features like Voltron.  Performs like a river dancer?  I ask because it seems like every body has some level of compromise.  I mean if I look at every option (except for sensor) just on paper, their lineup should go 1DX, 7D, 5D3, 6D.  But if I look just at sensor it seems like it should be 5D3, 6D, 1Dx, 7D.  If I look at build then 1DX, 5D3, 7D, (everything else).

There just doesnt seem to be one camera in Canon's lineup which is 'The Best Camera Ever'.

Maybe that is the point, because ambiguity = moola for Canon. 

Agessi said the Rebel was best.  Then his hair fell out.  Karma???

HUH!

bigal1000

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #125 on: April 22, 2013, 04:51:35 PM »
This post is what I would call "a pointless exercise in futility"...

Man did you hit the nail on the head,too many dolts around this place.

Andyx01

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #126 on: April 22, 2013, 05:04:44 PM »
Albi86 is 100% correct,  privatebydesign, is simply quoting things he doesn't understand.  *sigh*

A FF sensor is 2.56X larger than APSC

SQRT of 2.56 is 1.6 (the crop factor.)

100mm f2.8 ISO 100 on a Crop would have identical DOF, Framing, shutter speed, and Noise as:

160mm f/4.48 ISO 256 on Full Frame

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #126 on: April 22, 2013, 05:04:44 PM »

privatebydesign

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #127 on: April 22, 2013, 05:24:36 PM »
Andy,

You clearly didn't read the link I helpfully posted, and quoted from.

"DOF is determined by subject magnification at the film / sensor plane and the selected lens aperture or f-number." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field

To further your understanding, whilst realising you don't want to read the link, here is another quote from it.

Quote
The comparative DOFs of two different format sizes depend on the conditions of the comparison. The DOF for the smaller format can be either more than or less than that for the larger format. In the discussion that follows, it is assumed that the final images from both formats are the same size, are viewed from the same distance, and are judged with the same circle of confusion criterion. (Derivations of the effects of format size are given under Derivation of the DOF formulas.)

“Same picture” for both formats
When the “same picture” is taken in two different format sizes from the same distance at the same f-number with lenses that give the same angle of view, and the final images (e.g., in prints, or on a projection screen or electronic display) are the same size, DOF is, to a first approximation, inversely proportional to format size (Stroebel 1976, 139). Though commonly used when comparing formats, the approximation is valid only when the subject distance is large in comparison with the focal length of the larger format and small in comparison with the hyperfocal distance of the smaller format.

Moreover, the larger the format size, the longer a lens will need to be to capture the same framing as a smaller format. In motion pictures, for example, a frame with a 12 degree horizontal field of view will require a 50 mm lens on 16 mm film, a 100 mm lens on 35 mm film, and a 250 mm lens on 65 mm film. Conversely, using the same focal length lens with each of these formats will yield a progressively wider image as the film format gets larger: a 50 mm lens has a horizontal field of view of 12 degrees on 16 mm film, 23.6 degrees on 35 mm film, and 55.6 degrees on 65 mm film. What all this means is that because the larger formats require longer lenses than the smaller ones, they will accordingly have a smaller depth of field. Therefore, compensations in exposure, framing, or subject distance need to be made in order to make one format look like it was filmed in another format.

Same focal length for both formats
Many small-format digital SLR camera systems allow using many of the same lenses on both full-frame and “cropped format” cameras. If, for the same focal length setting, the subject distance is adjusted to provide the same field of view at the subject, at the same f-number and final-image size, the smaller format has greater DOF, as with the “same picture” comparison above. If pictures are taken from the same distance using the same f-number, same focal length, and the final images are the same size, the smaller format has less DOF. If pictures taken from the same subject distance using the same focal length, are given the same enlargement, both final images will have the same DOF. The pictures from the two formats will differ because of the different angles of view. If the larger format is cropped to the captured area of the smaller format, the final images will have the same angle of view, have been given the same enlargement, and have the same DOF.

Same DOF for both formats
In many cases, the DOF is fixed by the requirements of the desired image. For a given DOF and field of view, the required f-number is proportional to the format size. For example, if a 35 mm camera required f/11, a 4×5 camera would require f/45 to give the same DOF. For the same ISO speed, the exposure time on the 4×5 would be sixteen times as long; if the 35 camera required 1/250 second, the 4×5 camera would require 1/15 second. The longer exposure time with the larger camera might result in motion blur, especially with windy conditions, a moving subject, or an unsteady camera.

Adjusting the f-number to the camera format is equivalent to maintaining the same absolute aperture diameter; when set to the same absolute aperture diameters, both formats have the same DOF.

Which is all pretty much what I have already said! If you don't believe me then there are an awful lot more people than me you need to convince, because they are all wrong too.

privatebydesign

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #128 on: April 22, 2013, 06:34:40 PM »
Albi86 is 100% correct,  privatebydesign, is simply quoting things he doesn't understand.  *sigh*

A FF sensor is 2.56X larger than APSC

SQRT of 2.56 is 1.6 (the crop factor.)

100mm f2.8 ISO 100 on a Crop would have identical DOF, Framing, shutter speed, and Noise as:

160mm f/4.48 ISO 256 on Full Frame


That is all covered very well by another link I often post on equivalence. http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/

And doesn't contradict anything I have already said.

TrumpetPower!

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #129 on: April 22, 2013, 06:51:43 PM »
http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/

If everybody arguing past each other on this thread had started by reading that link, one might imagine a lot less sound and fury....

b&

neuroanatomist

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #130 on: April 22, 2013, 07:54:05 PM »
If everybody arguing past each other on this thread had started by reading that link, one might imagine a lot less sound and fury....

A vain hope, I'm afraid...   ::)
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TrumpetPower!

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #131 on: April 22, 2013, 08:55:21 PM »
If everybody arguing past each other on this thread had started by reading that link, one might imagine a lot less sound and fury....

A vain hope, I'm afraid...   ::)

That, and think of what it would do to the popcorn sales....

b&

tiger82

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #132 on: April 22, 2013, 08:59:02 PM »
I have shot them all, thanks to Canon CPS and their loan program.  The 1DX is unparalleled and undisputably the best FF DSLR I've ever shot and that includes the D800, D3X, and D4.
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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #132 on: April 22, 2013, 08:59:02 PM »

tiger82

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #133 on: April 23, 2013, 09:47:16 PM »
Then I ask , in what way? Colors? DR?
1dx is the best Canon camera regarding noise and banding, I have tested 1dx yesterday regarding this issues and compared 1dx against 5dmk2 and 5dmk3, no question, the 1dx was much cleaner in the shadows.
If you then look at other parameters as color sensitivity, DR, tonal range I do not agree

In the only way that matters, I like the product of my work, my keeper rate, plus the percentage of shots in focus.  I like the creativity it affords me from sports, landscapes, time exposures, night shooting, indoor events, low ligght shooting.  It just does everything better than the other Canons.  I miss fewer shots and the frame rate is fantastic for sports and action.  You are looking at minutiae when, pardon the pun, you should be looking at the big picture.  What good is tonal quality and color sensitivity, etc when you miss the moment?  When I had the 1DX for 2 weeks, I didn't spend my time testing it; I used to for my normal shooting and it really made an inpact on what I can produce.
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tiger82

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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #134 on: April 23, 2013, 10:14:10 PM »
a different answer and statement to your earlier

"I have shot them all, thanks to Canon CPS and their loan program.  The 1DX is unparalleled and undisputably the best FF DSLR I've ever shot and that includes the D800, D3X, and D4."

What answer do you want? You want to hear how I wasted hours of my time doing head to head tests?  I test them the best way I know, use them in normal shooting situations and look at what I got.  You can be anal about every detail but the bottom line is producing images I and my customers like.  I have shot them all and that is my subjective judgment.  The 1DX makes my work better; isn't that what we all want? 

Stop trying to use objective test results when all of our product appeal requirements are subjective.
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Re: Does Canon really have a Flagship Stills Camera?
« Reply #134 on: April 23, 2013, 10:14:10 PM »