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Author Topic: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?  (Read 8327 times)

charlesqian

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2013, 06:01:55 PM »
Based on my experience with 1DC at 4K mode, it will heat up around 30 minutes but I finished filming the 128GB CF card, which is a little over 30 minutes of clips despite the white warning icon. 
Thanks charlesqian, that was very useful information. Do you shoot indoors (with air-conditioning) or outdoors? Ambient temperature?

The instance I mentioned above was indoors, recording a high school theater play, and the ambient temperature should be around 60F.  I don't think it turned on the AC that night in the theater.

I have since then also shot something outdoors but did not shoot continuously.  Honestly, I did not test how long it would take to get the camera automatically shut down because of the heat via continuous recording.  It seems to get that white warning sign pretty easily and the camera gets warm noticeably but I have never seen the red warning sign yet.  I normally shoot intermittently with any camera to re-compose or change angles etc..

But the one thing I'd like to mention is its Super 35mm mode which produces outstanding images and eats up less memory. 

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2013, 06:01:55 PM »

r4e

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2013, 12:46:08 PM »
Thanks Charlesqian for your additional information.

I just noticed a comment on Vimeo by a Swiss 1DC user: "Now, Canon won't deliver any 1DCs in Europe currently. When pressed, my Canon contact here said the new 25p firmware needs a hardware modification/upgrade. That would mean that already delivered cameras will have to go back. But there isn't anything official out on this yet."

This definitely makes me to postpone my decision, and, July is getting closer...
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Axilrod

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2013, 12:54:04 PM »
I'd factor in the waterproof enclosure, it seems like the camera would get really hot in there after an hour.  It may be fine shooting in a normal situation for that long, but I'd be hesitant to shoot that long underwater.
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charlesqian

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2013, 02:31:10 PM »
Thanks Charlesqian for your additional information.

I just noticed a comment on Vimeo by a Swiss 1DC user: "Now, Canon won't deliver any 1DCs in Europe currently. When pressed, my Canon contact here said the new 25p firmware needs a hardware modification/upgrade. That would mean that already delivered cameras will have to go back. But there isn't anything official out on this yet."

This definitely makes me to postpone my decision, and, July is getting closer...

So you live in Europe and have to use the 25P?

marvinhello

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2013, 02:59:24 PM »
Thanks Charlesqian for your additional information.

I just noticed a comment on Vimeo by a Swiss 1DC user: "Now, Canon won't deliver any 1DCs in Europe currently. When pressed, my Canon contact here said the new 25p firmware needs a hardware modification/upgrade. That would mean that already delivered cameras will have to go back. But there isn't anything official out on this yet."

This definitely makes me to postpone my decision, and, July is getting closer...

That's weird, many european sellers are selling 1D C as normal, if it does require a massive product recall then Canon should have informed the dealers.

charlesqian

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2013, 03:16:59 PM »
Thanks Charlesqian for your additional information.

I just noticed a comment on Vimeo by a Swiss 1DC user: "Now, Canon won't deliver any 1DCs in Europe currently. When pressed, my Canon contact here said the new 25p firmware needs a hardware modification/upgrade. That would mean that already delivered cameras will have to go back. But there isn't anything official out on this yet."

This definitely makes me to postpone my decision, and, July is getting closer...


That's weird, many european sellers are selling 1D C as normal, if it does require a massive product recall then Canon should have informed the dealers.

I agree.  To change or make modifications on 1DC's hardware would be highly unlikely;  I think from the very start, Canon already had the plan to do the 25P, so technically they should have already known it's feasible.  Glitches on software are possible. 

marvinhello

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2013, 03:21:19 PM »
Thanks Charlesqian for your additional information.

I just noticed a comment on Vimeo by a Swiss 1DC user: "Now, Canon won't deliver any 1DCs in Europe currently. When pressed, my Canon contact here said the new 25p firmware needs a hardware modification/upgrade. That would mean that already delivered cameras will have to go back. But there isn't anything official out on this yet."

This definitely makes me to postpone my decision, and, July is getting closer...


That's weird, many european sellers are selling 1D C as normal, if it does require a massive product recall then Canon should have informed the dealers.

I agree.  To change or make modifications on 1DC's hardware would be highly unlikely;  I think from the very start, Canon already had the plan to do the 25P, so technically they should have already known it's feasible.  Glitches on software are possible.

Just found out CVP UK has listed 1D C as out of stock, I will call them on Monday to check if it's about the 25p issue.

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2013, 03:21:19 PM »

cookinghusband

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2013, 04:05:24 AM »

I purchased my 1DC in mid march and have done over 3Tb of video since,

Just sharing my observation in my couple month of using it. Since day one I had the over heat indicator lid up once. It was 20degC indoor, occur near 25-30 min of recording, during this occurance I had been hand helding the 1DC on the right side all the time with it mounted on the monopod. As soon as I took out the CF card it disappear. From than on I never held the 1DC fully/fulltime on the right side grip, overheat never occur again even if I have film contiously during a live concert. Seem like heat problem is with the CF writing not the CMOS. In my past experience with other camera is alway the heat of memory during writing of the files cause the temperature problem.

In your case, if your Ti casing is in contact with the camera to dissipate the heat to the cold water. I do not see 1 hour usage is any problem.

PS.
For 4K24 video the 1DC  can only record 32mins(128GF CF) each time you press the button, it cannot record across 2 CF card, U need to stop and start a new recording when the card is full.
Also it only work with the 1000x UDMA7 card.

eyeland

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2013, 04:47:09 AM »
What is getting hot, the CF card or the controller or both?
I recall friends using heatsinks on overclocked RAM, I wonder if one could modify a CF card for conductivity (or compel a company to do so)
After the announcement of the BMC 4K, the chance of me using the 1D C professionally has decreased alot, and overheating is an issue that I need to consider as we plan to shoot in full sun in Africa and other sauna-like conditions. Would be cool if someone with a 1D C (and good hands) would try modding a CF card and/or the CF card-door.
EDIT: I wonder if these would perform better?
http://www.hoodmanusa.com/products.asp?dept=1007
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 04:50:13 AM by eyeland »
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cookinghusband

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2013, 05:20:19 AM »
What is getting hot, the CF card or the controller or both?
I recall friends using heatsinks on overclocked RAM, I wonder if one could modify a CF card for conductivity (or compel a company to do so)
After the announcement of the BMC 4K, the chance of me using the 1D C professionally has decreased alot, and overheating is an issue that I need to consider as we plan to shoot in full sun in Africa and other sauna-like conditions. Would be cool if someone with a 1D C (and good hands) would try modding a CF card and/or the CF card-door.
EDIT: I wonder if these would perform better?
http://www.hoodmanusa.com/products.asp?dept=1007
if you want some heat sink on the CF, the space available inside the compartment is minimal. I need to wait till summer to see how bad it get. May be is my cheap transcend causing the problem? I had tried sticking a gel ice pack ( that thing they put on your head during fever)on the outside when using the Minota 7D in the past and it works.

Actually I had use my 1DC once at about 25degC outdoor for about 50GB and then 40GB is totally fine.

PS from my memory I did not remember other part of the 1DC heating up, so I guess the heat is from the CF.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 05:22:01 AM by cookinghusband »

marvinhello

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2013, 05:46:53 AM »
What is getting hot, the CF card or the controller or both?
I recall friends using heatsinks on overclocked RAM, I wonder if one could modify a CF card for conductivity (or compel a company to do so)
After the announcement of the BMC 4K, the chance of me using the 1D C professionally has decreased alot, and overheating is an issue that I need to consider as we plan to shoot in full sun in Africa and other sauna-like conditions. Would be cool if someone with a 1D C (and good hands) would try modding a CF card and/or the CF card-door.
EDIT: I wonder if these would perform better?
http://www.hoodmanusa.com/products.asp?dept=1007

You need to use active cooling like a fan

docholliday

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2013, 06:16:14 AM »
Going further in my investigation, I am trying to discover the amount of heat generated:

1DX Instruction manual page 400: With a fully-charged Battery Pack LP-E4N, movie shooting time approx. 2 hr. 10 min. at 23 degrees Celsius. Notice that this does not say anything about continuous time.         
Battery Pack LP-E4N rated voltage 11.1 V DC, Battery capacity 2450 mAh --> 27,2 Wh --> 1DX power dissipation during movie shooting: about 12,6W on average.

1DC Instruction manual pages 28 and 84: "With a fully-charged Battery Pack LP-E4N, the total movie shooting time (with 4K shooting) will be as follows: approx. 1 hr. 25 min. at room temperature (23 degrees Celsius)". Notice that this does not say anything about continuous time. This also implies that 1DC power dissipation during movie shooting would be about 19,2W on average. No wonder if a better heat sink is required on the 1DC.

The 1DC camera is weather proof and has no cooling vents like some of the C cameras have. Imagine a small plastic covered magnesium alloy box with a hot 20W light bulb in it.

How long will it take before the internal temperature rises enough to shut down the camera?
Any experiences? Any rumours? Or any official wisdom?

That calculation doesn't mean that the unit will produce 12.6 WATTS of heat. That just means that the CONSUMPTION of the camera. Heat is wasted power during consumption. If the circuit is efficient, it will produce very little heat. Since most processors nowadays have some sort of internal throttling/stepping, which can allow the cores to slow down a bit and remain cool during period of lower usage, thus reducing heat generation, it is fairly hard to calculate what the actual heat generated would be. Not sure if the Digics throttle, but the cooling for processor would (should) have a sink capable of handling that heat. It probably dissipates into the chassis if it sinked (sealed, meaning no airflow). Still, if the system is efficient, the heat produced would be less than calculated.

The sensor, on the other hand, can generate much heat during operation, and since heat=noise, is sinked heavily. That is probably also sinked into the chassis. Maybe removing the rubber grips and using a heat absorbing/transmitting gel against the body to transfer heat to the dive case would get that heat away from the camera. The case should be metal if you want it to transfer to the water. If it is polycarb or another plastic, it would not transfer well. If that is the case, maybe modifying the case with a few passthrough ports and a heatsink outside (in the water) to pass some fluids/alcohol around the gel to transfer heat (like a secondary cooling loop in a nuclear reactor) would get that heat out.

You might be able to rig something using the liquid cooling system for a computer. There are copper dies that attach to processors for running the ethylene glycol through. You might be able to stick some of those to the camera body (without the rubber grips) and pass them through a dive case to some cooling fins/radiator outside. Using the passthrough ports would keep the case watertight and still let the cooling solution circulate effectively transferring the heat to the water (which should be cooler than the camera and air inside the dive case).
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 06:26:05 AM by docholliday »

Don Haines

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2013, 02:42:22 PM »
The best thing I can think of is cooling through the tripod mount.... Perhaps you can fasten a heatsink to the top of your tripod and mount the camera, with some heat-conductive gel, to the top of the heatsink. Since the tripod mount is part of the metal case of the camera, this seems like the best way to bleed of the heat.... now the question is how to get the heat from the heatsink and out of the housing..... could you use conductive gel from the side of the heatsink to the dive housing?

Just thinking.... never tried any of this and have no idea how well it would work...
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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2013, 02:42:22 PM »

cookinghusband

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2013, 12:29:00 PM »
Going further in my investigation, I am trying to discover the amount of heat generated:

1DX Instruction manual page 400: With a fully-charged Battery Pack LP-E4N, movie shooting time approx. 2 hr. 10 min. at 23 degrees Celsius. Notice that this does not say anything about continuous time.         
Battery Pack LP-E4N rated voltage 11.1 V DC, Battery capacity 2450 mAh --> 27,2 Wh --> 1DX power dissipation during movie shooting: about 12,6W on average.

1DC Instruction manual pages 28 and 84: "With a fully-charged Battery Pack LP-E4N, the total movie shooting time (with 4K shooting) will be as follows: approx. 1 hr. 25 min. at room temperature (23 degrees Celsius)". Notice that this does not say anything about continuous time. This also implies that 1DC power dissipation during movie shooting would be about 19,2W on average. No wonder if a better heat sink is required on the 1DC.

The 1DC camera is weather proof and has no cooling vents like some of the C cameras have. Imagine a small plastic covered magnesium alloy box with a hot 20W light bulb in it.

How long will it take before the internal temperature rises enough to shut down the camera?
Any experiences? Any rumours? Or any official wisdom?

That calculation doesn't mean that the unit will produce 12.6 WATTS of heat. That just means that the CONSUMPTION of the camera. Heat is wasted power during consumption. If the circuit is efficient, it will produce very little heat. Since most processors nowadays have some sort of internal throttling/stepping, which can allow the cores to slow down a bit and remain cool during period of lower usage, thus reducing heat generation, it is fairly hard to calculate what the actual heat generated would be. Not sure if the Digics throttle, but the cooling for processor would (should) have a sink capable of handling that heat. It probably dissipates into the chassis if it sinked (sealed, meaning no airflow). Still, if the system is efficient, the heat produced would be less than calculated.

The sensor, on the other hand, can generate much heat during operation, and since heat=noise, is sinked heavily. That is probably also sinked into the chassis. Maybe removing the rubber grips and using a heat absorbing/transmitting gel against the body to transfer heat to the dive case would get that heat away from the camera. The case should be metal if you want it to transfer to the water. If it is polycarb or another plastic, it would not transfer well. If that is the case, maybe modifying the case with a few passthrough ports and a heatsink outside (in the water) to pass some fluids/alcohol around the gel to transfer heat (like a secondary cooling loop in a nuclear reactor) would get that heat out.

You might be able to rig something using the liquid cooling system for a computer. There are copper dies that attach to processors for running the ethylene glycol through. You might be able to stick some of those to the camera body (without the rubber grips) and pass them through a dive case to some cooling fins/radiator outside. Using the passthrough ports would keep the case watertight and still let the cooling solution circulate effectively transferring the heat to the water (which should be cooler than the camera and air inside the dive case).

Actually the battery lasted me 4 128gb cards and the battery is still not quit empty I guess 2.5 hours is possible on 1 battery. According to my past experience if the 1DC is on tripod without a hot hand holding it shall be ok,

Just wondering what brand CF card Charles was using, I am using the Transcend.

Also remember to include the CF card and usb3.0 card reader and computer and fast HDD in your budget, it take me about 3hr to backup the CF if using usb2.0

r4e

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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2013, 02:45:34 PM »
Thanks for the many answers all of you have provided!
That calculation doesn't mean that the unit will produce 12.6 WATTS of heat. That just means that the CONSUMPTION of the camera. Heat is wasted power during consumption.
Unlike motors and flashlights that convert part of the consumed energy into other forms of energy (than heat), computers and cameras convert all the consumed energy into heat. Hopefully some useful bits of information is processed during the power consumption/heat generation...

Since my main usage will be shooting continuous video, in 5-30 minute clips, but, shot continuously, the heat generation and possible overheating is a real concern for me. One of the replies indicates that more heat is generated close to the handle and the CF cards. I might consider removing the CF compartment cover. In theory a very small external fan (but inside the housing) could be positioned to cool the CF cards, but, the space inside the prefabricated aluminium dive housing is extremely limited.

There have been several encouraging messages from current (land based) 1DC users that overheating *might* not be an issue after all. I have also noticed an increasing number of 1DC videos on vimeo - this is an indication of a growing user base, and there already seems to be more videos made by 1DC than 1DIV (my current camera).
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Re: Any risk of 1DC overheating on a 1 hour 4K video?
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2013, 02:45:34 PM »