Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]

[Chuck Alaimo]

But that is exactly the reason that has most people on this forum up in arms, they AREN'T keeping up with advancements in new technology, they are simply rereleasing the same camera over and over again in different configurations. The average consumer may not notice or even care, but we dedicated shooters and die hard Canon fans do!

Fine. But, 'we dedicated shooters and die hard Canon fans' make up an infinitesimal fraction of their market. The vast majority of dSLR buyers are 'average consumers'.

Yup!  when the vast majority of the people buying this body will not know what an AF point is, much less how to manipulate them, or know what a cross type point is you don't have to innovate too much...

Hate to say it, but the XXd line and the rebel line would benefit more from instagram filters than an updated sensor...

[Chuck Alaimo]

Ask yourself this:  have you ever been able to walk through a gallery and point out which camera shot which photo?  If the stuff was as bad as some of these idiots claim, nobody would use it.

Most of the time you don't need to because it is written underneath the artwork.

??  what gallery are you going too?  Most of the art showings I have seen show the title of the piece, the name of the artist and maybe a little desciption ---- location of the shot, etc....I have never seen an artist present their work and proclaim brand awareness...they are promoting their own brand as an artist. 

And on the other level, you go to a bridal show you show off your prints...your work.  You talk to potential clients and what you talk about is you...what can you do, what you bring to the table creatively --- not I shoot on this brand...the most I ever bring up about my gear is that "I can shoot in any lighting condition," or, "I can shoot in silent mode during the ceremony so I won't be too loud."  Never once has a client or a potential client asked what brand I shoot with.  I only get that from other photographers or photo enthusiasts.

[unfocused]

But that is exactly the reason that has most people on this forum up in arms, they AREN'T keeping up with advancements in new technology, they are simply rereleasing the same camera over and over again in different configurations. The average consumer may not notice or even care, but we dedicated shooters and die hard Canon fans do!

Fine. But, 'we dedicated shooters and die hard Canon fans' make up an infinitesimal fraction of their market. The vast majority of dSLR buyers are 'average consumers'.

Yup!  when the vast majority of the people buying this body will not know what an AF point is, much less how to manipulate them, or know what a cross type point is you don't have to innovate too much...

Hate to say it, but the XXd line and the rebel line would benefit more from instagram filters than an updated sensor...

I must disagree with this condescending attitude. I think most DLSR buyers are buying the cameras because, for a variety of reasons, they are not satisfied with the quality of images they are getting from their iPhones, their fixed lens compacts or their point and shoots.

Rebel buyers are very likely to be price-limited, but that does not make them stupid or incompetent. They may be new to DSLRs, but there is something about the format that they find desirable. Traditionally, this has been the ability to change lenses, but there can be other factors, such as the larger sensor size, sharper lenses, viewfinder, etc., etc.

It would be a major mistake for any company to treat their customers as stupid and Canon hasn't become the industry leader by making mistakes.

Here is something that people just have a hard time accepting: Canon's 18mp sensor is very good. It is more than adequate for 99.9% of shooting conditions. Can it be improved? Of course. Will it be improved? Of course. But, even 3 1/2 years after introduction, it can hold it's own against the latest sensors used by Nikon. It is not that Rebel or XXD users are inept and therefore can be sold inferior goods. It's that the product is only inferior in the minds of a handful of people who get their jollies from looking for insignificant flaws.

[dilbert]

You need look no further than DxOMark.  After all, no one else does.

I wonder, though...when you factor in the lenses - the 64% increase in MP count doesn't help the D800 resolve better than the 5DIII, so how much is the 33% increase of the Nikon APS-C vs. Canon's 18 MP going to help?

It's not just about megapixels.

It is also about DR and cleanliness of the raw image.

Nikon's full frame sensors seem to be free of the banding pattern noise that is found in 5D2/5D3/6D.

[Chuck Alaimo]

But that is exactly the reason that has most people on this forum up in arms, they AREN'T keeping up with advancements in new technology, they are simply rereleasing the same camera over and over again in different configurations. The average consumer may not notice or even care, but we dedicated shooters and die hard Canon fans do!

Fine. But, 'we dedicated shooters and die hard Canon fans' make up an infinitesimal fraction of their market. The vast majority of dSLR buyers are 'average consumers'.

And last week one of them came to me for advice on which camera to buy, saying all their friends had Canon. My recommendation? Nikon, followed by showing him DxO's evaluation of the Canon vs Nikon cameras and telling him to visit some stores and try them both. He bought Nikon. I just can't in all honesty recommend Canon DSLRs to anyone.

I should probably just ignore this thread, but I hope you showed your friends this from DXOMark:
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/Which-lenses-should-you-choose-for-your-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-vs.-Nikon-D800-Competition-is-closer-than-expected

There was a thread dedicated to this here in CR last week.  Turns out even DXO, when they connect the lens to the camera and evaluate the "system" are seeing that Canon and Nikon are a lot closer than it would appear.  Roger/lensrentals found something similar when selecting his camera.

interesting....

[Chuck Alaimo]

But that is exactly the reason that has most people on this forum up in arms, they AREN'T keeping up with advancements in new technology, they are simply rereleasing the same camera over and over again in different configurations. The average consumer may not notice or even care, but we dedicated shooters and die hard Canon fans do!

Fine. But, 'we dedicated shooters and die hard Canon fans' make up an infinitesimal fraction of their market. The vast majority of dSLR buyers are 'average consumers'.

Now imagine what would happen if we "infinitesimal fraction of the market" stopped supporting Canon. Marketshare is directly related to mindshare. It doesn't matter what the actual facts are, only what people perceive are the facts (Marketing 101). Ask Apple about the Final Cut Pro X fiasco. When enough pros (who equally represented a small portion of Apple's market share) bashed the new editing software, everyone else abandoned it as well as they assumed the pros must know what they are talking about. Canon like any other company need professionals to shoot great images with their gear to market the possibilities to non-professionals. If enough pros start complaining, even those not knowledgable about it will start to echo those complaints creating a snowball affect.

Maybe the pros aren't as disappointed as you may think? 

[Chuck Alaimo]

But that is exactly the reason that has most people on this forum up in arms, they AREN'T keeping up with advancements in new technology, they are simply rereleasing the same camera over and over again in different configurations. The average consumer may not notice or even care, but we dedicated shooters and die hard Canon fans do!

Fine. But, 'we dedicated shooters and die hard Canon fans' make up an infinitesimal fraction of their market. The vast majority of dSLR buyers are 'average consumers'.

Yup!  when the vast majority of the people buying this body will not know what an AF point is, much less how to manipulate them, or know what a cross type point is you don't have to innovate too much...

Hate to say it, but the XXd line and the rebel line would benefit more from instagram filters than an updated sensor...

I must disagree with this condescending attitude. I think most DLSR buyers are buying the cameras because, for a variety of reasons, they are not satisfied with the quality of images they are getting from their iPhones, their fixed lens compacts or their point and shoots.

Rebel buyers are very likely to be price-limited, but that does not make them stupid or incompetent. They may be new to DSLRs, but there is something about the format that they find desirable. Traditionally, this has been the ability to change lenses, but there can be other factors, such as the larger sensor size, sharper lenses, viewfinder, etc., etc.

It would be a major mistake for any company to treat their customers as stupid and Canon hasn't become the industry leader by making mistakes.

Here is something that people just have a hard time accepting: Canon's 18mp sensor is very good. It is more than adequate for 99.9% of shooting conditions. Can it be improved? Of course. Will it be improved? Of course. But, even 3 1/2 years after introduction, it can hold it's own against the latest sensors used by Nikon. It is not that Rebel or XXD users are inept and therefore can be sold inferior goods. It's that the product is only inferior in the minds of a handful of people who get their jollies from looking for insignificant flaws.

it's not condescending.  It's the reality of the market.  I can count way more times someone with their brand new (fill in the blank between $500-1500) camera comes up to me and asks me...just gott his...how do i...

I take a look and notice that more times than not ---all AF points are still selected, and the camera is in green auto everything mode.  If they are on a canon, I generally show them...this is how you do X, and this is how you do Y, and this is how you set Z...at some point while telling them this I ask them if they read their manual, and they say no - and it's really surprising how many of them do not even know where their manual is! 

I had a cousin of my fiancee call me asking for advice...her choice was between a sony and a canon t series...I recommended the canon and she bought the sony...over christmas she was visiting and guess what she asks me...how do I do anything on this...the sony UI is like foreign language..I deciphered a few things and hated the controls...when asked where is the manual...she said she lost it...I told her to DL the manual and that will explain a lot.

LOL...  If i did not run into that situation as much as I did, I would not state what I stated. 

[neuroanatomist]

resolve better?
its clearly so that d800 resolves more than 5dmk3 with the right lens

It's déjà vu all over again.  Yes, with the right lens. But on average, across a large group of lenses, the D800 cannot out-resolve the 5DIII, according to DxO.

It is also about DR and cleanliness of the raw image.

Sign next to Nikon dSLR at Best Buy: "Great DR and clean RAW."

Comment by 'average consumer' overheard: "Well, if I was one-a them vegan-types that ate only raw foods, I'd sure as heck need a great doctor!  Think I'll check out that Canon over there..."

 

[Don Haines]

Do you really want to see what happens when you go from a 20 or 22 megapixel sensor to a 46 megapixel sensor? Do you want to see how the lens affects sensor sharpness? Take your lens, mount it on your FF camera, take a photo that shows off sharpness. Then take that lens, mount it on a Rebel, and do the same. You will find that only lenses of superior sharpness will give you a sharp image on your Rebel...... and that is what will happen when you go full frame high megapixel....

Unless you have a camera bag full of the finest L-glass, you can rant on and on about which sensor and which camera outresolves who..... but out in the real world most people have bought into a SYSTEM.... and by far the most important part and the most expensive part of that system is the glass....

You can take the crappiest Nikon DSLR, put a high end lens on it, and it will outresolve the finest Canon camera with a kit lens. Likewise, take the crappiest Canon, put on some high end L-glass, and it will outresolve the finest Nikon with a kit lens.

You want to know the order of things?
#1 - photographer
#2 - glass
#3 - camera

..... and the glass is an investment while the camera can be best thought of as expendable.

Sorry for the rant, but this thread has degenerated into another DXO/SENSOR/NIKON/CANON arguefest, most of which has nothing to do with the topic at hand..

[Chuck Alaimo]

Do you really want to see what happens when you go from a 20 or 22 megapixel sensor to a 46 megapixel sensor? Do you want to see how the lens affects sensor sharpness? Take your lens, mount it on your FF camera, take a photo that shows off sharpness. Then take that lens, mount it on a Rebel, and do the same. You will find that only lenses of superior sharpness will give you a sharp image on your Rebel...... and that is what will happen when you go full frame high megapixel....

Unless you have a camera bag full of the finest L-glass, you can rant on and on about which sensor and which camera outresolves who..... but out in the real world most people have bought into a SYSTEM.... and by far the most important part and the most expensive part of that system is the glass....

You can take the crappiest Nikon DSLR, put a high end lens on it, and it will outresolve the finest Canon camera with a kit lens. Likewise, take the crappiest Canon, put on some high end L-glass, and it will outresolve the finest Nikon with a kit lens.

You want to know the order of things?
#1 - photographer
#2 - glass
#3 - camera

..... and the glass is an investment while the camera can be best thought of as expendable.

Sorry for the rant, but this thread has degenerated into another DXO/SENSOR/NIKON/CANON arguefest, most of which has nothing to do with the topic at hand..

+100

[neuroanatomist]

Perceptual MPix: a much simpler tool to score and compare lenses
P-Mpix is the unit of a sharpness measurement. The number of P-Mpix of a camera/lens combination is equal to the pixel count of a sensor that would give the same sharpness if tested with a perfect theoretical optics, as the camera/lens combination under test.
For example, if a camera with a sensor of 24Mpix when used with a given lens has a P-Mpix of 18MPix, it means that somewhere in the optical system 6Mpix are lost, in the sense that as an observer you will not perceive the additional sharpness that these 6Mpix should have added to the photos if everything was perfect.

According to DxOMark, the best prime and best zoom from each are:

Canon 300mm f/2.8L IS II on 5DIII - 22 P-Mpix
Nikon 85mm f/1.4G on D800 - 22 P-Mpix

Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II on 5DIII - 21 P-Mpix
Nikon 70-200mm f/4G ED VR on D800 - 21 P-Mpix

So, by DxO's criteria and definition, Canon's best prime and zoom lens are basically not limiting system resolution (within a 1 MP margin of error).  However, Nikon's best prime and zoom on the D800 are resulting in the 'loss' of 14-15 MP....resulting in a perceived sharpness of even Nikon's best lenses on the D800 as no better than Canon's best lenses.

Interestingly, while the D800 appears to be 'too much' for Nikon lenses in that the lenses are clearly limiting overall system resolution, we don't know from these data if we're at the limit of the Canon lenses.

[BrettS]

I hear the noise of someone rustling about with chart papers...

[rpt]

Do you really want to see what happens when you go from a 20 or 22 megapixel sensor to a 46 megapixel sensor? Do you want to see how the lens affects sensor sharpness? Take your lens, mount it on your FF camera, take a photo that shows off sharpness. Then take that lens, mount it on a Rebel, and do the same. You will find that only lenses of superior sharpness will give you a sharp image on your Rebel...... and that is what will happen when you go full frame high megapixel....

Unless you have a camera bag full of the finest L-glass, you can rant on and on about which sensor and which camera outresolves who..... but out in the real world most people have bought into a SYSTEM.... and by far the most important part and the most expensive part of that system is the glass....

You can take the crappiest Nikon DSLR, put a high end lens on it, and it will outresolve the finest Canon camera with a kit lens. Likewise, take the crappiest Canon, put on some high end L-glass, and it will outresolve the finest Nikon with a kit lens.

You want to know the order of things?
#1 - photographer
#2 - glass
#3 - camera

..... and the glass is an investment while the camera can be best thought of as expendable.

Sorry for the rant, but this thread has degenerated into another DXO/SENSOR/NIKON/CANON arguefest, most of which has nothing to do with the topic at hand..

+100

Yup! A +100 from me too.

[mjbehnke]

I think that is why Canon has been doing alot of len upgrades. I think they are making sure that users who will buy a Big MP body will be able to get results out of it via the new L glass.  Just MHO, but I think Canon is smart to upgrade glass first.

[pj1974]

I think that is why Canon has been doing alot of len upgrades. I think they are making sure that users who will buy a Big MP body will be able to get results out of it via the new L glass.  Just MHO, but I think Canon is smart to upgrade glass first.

+1   I have been thinking along the same lines as this, above.

Canon has made some very good moves regarding digital photography in the past (eg first in FFs, first DSLR with video and live-view, etc).

So the idea of first getting a suitable amount of high quality lenses to get the most of any increased MP DSLRs (particularly FF) makes a lot of sense to me.

When I upgraded from an 8MP 350D to a 18MP 7D, the requirement for better glass to get the most out of the increased resolution / sensor was clear to me.  I now have high quality lenses covering 10mm to 300mm, including Canon L glass too.

Regards

Paul