September 30, 2014, 04:29:50 PM

Author Topic: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]  (Read 47021 times)

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2975
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #135 on: April 11, 2013, 05:57:10 AM »
Overheard today:

"My wife wants to buy Canon because it has touch screen."

i.e. for her that is the killer feature of the Canon 650 and it is things like this that let Canon get away with not improving IQ.

Canon are adding bells and whistles to their camera rather than improving its abilities to take better photos.

The real answer to that is the so-called "IQ" of the Canon equipment is essentially the same as that of Nikon (Pentax, Sony, Oly..., pick your favorite).  The output of the equipment when used properly will be essentially indistinguishable.  So she was correct, pick the gear based on price and feature set. 

No, she didn't care about picture quality. The 650D could have produced images half as good as the Nikon but the touch screen, well that's just like new phone that has a touch screen and "iPad" that has a touch screen, so why would anyone want one of those prehistoric things with knobs and stuff?

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #135 on: April 11, 2013, 05:57:10 AM »

insanitybeard

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #136 on: April 11, 2013, 06:14:51 AM »
No, she didn't care about picture quality. The 650D could have produced images half as good as the Nikon but the touch screen, well that's just like new phone that has a touch screen and "iPad" that has a touch screen, so why would anyone want one of those prehistoric things with knobs and stuff?

Has DxOMark quantified that the Canon images are only 50% as good as the Nikon?
7D / EF-S 10-22 / 17-40L / 70-200 f4L IS / EF-S 60 macro

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2975
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #137 on: April 11, 2013, 06:33:37 AM »
No, she didn't care about picture quality. The 650D could have produced images half as good as the Nikon but the touch screen, well that's just like new phone that has a touch screen and "iPad" that has a touch screen, so why would anyone want one of those prehistoric things with knobs and stuff?

Has DxOMark quantified that the Canon images are only 50% as good as the Nikon?

You're not listening (and/or perhaps you didn't properly comprehend what I wrote.)

All that mattered was that one camera had a touch screen and the other didn't. MP be damned.

insanitybeard

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #138 on: April 11, 2013, 06:40:54 AM »
You're not listening (and/or perhaps you didn't properly comprehend what I wrote.)

All that mattered was that one camera had a touch screen and the other didn't. MP be damned.

Ok, I hold my hands up. I didn't properly comprehend what you wrote. However, your anti Canon stance on this forum frankly has become a tad tedious, and I don't think I speak solely for myself when I say that. I am not for a moment saying that we shouldn't complain or raise issue with things that we dislike about Canon cameras. But the manner of some of your postings suggests you have some grudge against Canon. Or am I again misunderstanding you?
7D / EF-S 10-22 / 17-40L / 70-200 f4L IS / EF-S 60 macro

J.R.

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1512
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #139 on: April 11, 2013, 07:19:35 AM »

Has DxOMark quantified that the Canon images are only 50% as good as the Nikon?

Yes .... only 50% as good, but only for images where the lens cap has NOT been removed ;D
5D3, 6D, 600D, RX100
16-35L, 24-70L II, 70-200L II, 100-400L, 50L, 85L II, 135L, 24TSE, 40, 100 macro, 18-55 II, 55-250 II, 600RT x 4
I come here to learn something new, not to learn how bad my gear is - I know that already ;-)!

Hobby Shooter

  • Guest
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #140 on: April 11, 2013, 07:27:43 AM »
You're not listening (and/or perhaps you didn't properly comprehend what I wrote.)

All that mattered was that one camera had a touch screen and the other didn't. MP be damned.

Ok, I hold my hands up. I didn't properly comprehend what you wrote. However, your anti Canon stance on this forum frankly has become a tad tedious, and I don't think I speak solely for myself when I say that. I am not for a moment saying that we shouldn't complain or raise issue with things that we dislike about Canon cameras. But the manner of some of your postings suggests you have some grudge against Canon. Or am I again misunderstanding you?
[/quote

To say the least...

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2975
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #141 on: April 11, 2013, 07:31:53 AM »
You're not listening (and/or perhaps you didn't properly comprehend what I wrote.)

All that mattered was that one camera had a touch screen and the other didn't. MP be damned.

Ok, I hold my hands up. I didn't properly comprehend what you wrote. However, your anti Canon stance on this forum frankly has become a tad tedious, and I don't think I speak solely for myself when I say that. I am not for a moment saying that we shouldn't complain or raise issue with things that we dislike about Canon cameras. But the manner of some of your postings suggests you have some grudge against Canon. Or am I again misunderstanding you?

If I was going to have a grudge, it would be because of something it them taking 4 tries to Canon's lens repair service to fix the IS in a 70-300 IS USM (non-L).

"Yeah we fixed it", "No you haven't, try again." "Fixed it this time.", "Put on a camera and it didn't work, try again." la la la

No, the point of me saying this is because lots of people are arguing that "Canon cameras sell well, so obviously 18MP is enough" or "... so obviously the DR isn't important." In a sense they're right, but it appears that it isn't the IQ that is selling the camera - it is the bells and whistles. When the reason for choosing a 650D over something else is the touch screen, then as long as the camera has enough pixels for facebook and WiFi to upload, well who cares about PASM, etc?

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #141 on: April 11, 2013, 07:31:53 AM »

insanitybeard

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #142 on: April 11, 2013, 08:08:11 AM »
If I was going to have a grudge, it would be because of something it them taking 4 tries to Canon's lens repair service to fix the IS in a 70-300 IS USM (non-L).

"Yeah we fixed it", "No you haven't, try again." "Fixed it this time.", "Put on a camera and it didn't work, try again." la la la

No, the point of me saying this is because lots of people are arguing that "Canon cameras sell well, so obviously 18MP is enough" or "... so obviously the DR isn't important." In a sense they're right, but it appears that it isn't the IQ that is selling the camera - it is the bells and whistles. When the reason for choosing a 650D over something else is the touch screen, then as long as the camera has enough pixels for facebook and WiFi to upload, well who cares about PASM, etc?

Ok, so you had poor service. I'm sorry that happenned, but that's not exclusive to Canon.

Personally, I welcome improvements to IQ and DR, as I'm sure many here do. The bells and whistles don't interest me either, but I accept that in todays social networking culture they will interest many, and Canon is going where it thinks the money is. That's business.
7D / EF-S 10-22 / 17-40L / 70-200 f4L IS / EF-S 60 macro

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14525
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #143 on: April 11, 2013, 08:54:36 AM »
No, not grasping at straws, just simply considering all of the lenses that are available for a camera. If you want to limit yourself to only those lenses that the camera vendor makes, fine, but don't impose those restrictions on others.

There are many fine lenses that are made for use on Canon/Nikon that are not made by Canon/Nikon.

The grasping at straws part was more about the fact that considering the Sigma 35/1.4 gets you barely a marginal improvement, as I said - throwing away 13 MP instead of 14 MP.

If I was going to have a grudge, it would be because of something it them taking 4 tries to Canon's lens repair service to fix the IS in a 70-300 IS USM (non-L).

"Yeah we fixed it", "No you haven't, try again." "Fixed it this time.", "Put on a camera and it didn't work, try again." la la la

And with Nikon, that might be <wait 4 weeks> "Yeah we fixed it", "No you haven't, try again."<wait 4 weeks> "Fixed it this time.", "Put on a camera and it didn't work, try again."<wait 4 weeks> la la la

No, the point of me saying this is because lots of people are arguing that "Canon cameras sell well, so obviously 18MP is enough" or "... so obviously the DR isn't important." In a sense they're right, but it appears that it isn't the IQ that is selling the camera - it is the bells and whistles.

In a sense?  No need for a qualifier there.  As I've stated before, people buy cameras not sensors.  Their reasons for choosing one camera over another are as varied as the people themselves.  Canon recognizes that people buy cameras, not naked sensors, and they design their cameras accordingly.  The fact that they continue to outsell Nikon across the lineup quite clearly indicates that they know what they're doing in terms of camera design (including the sensor). 

Saying 'it isn't the IQ that is selling the camera' is an unrealistic over-generalization.  The problem is that some people seem to suggest that simply because the sensor in a Nikon camera offers a couple of extra stops of DR, that means the IQ of the sensor in a Canon camera is unacceptably poor.  It's that sort of attitude that raises hackles around here, and for good reason - it's complete crap.  If you want to peddle that line of BS, try a Nikon forum...I'm sure you'd be welcomed with open arms. 
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2975
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #144 on: April 11, 2013, 09:13:15 AM »
No, not grasping at straws, just simply considering all of the lenses that are available for a camera. If you want to limit yourself to only those lenses that the camera vendor makes, fine, but don't impose those restrictions on others.

There are many fine lenses that are made for use on Canon/Nikon that are not made by Canon/Nikon.

The grasping at straws part was more about the fact that considering the Sigma 35/1.4 gets you barely a marginal improvement, as I said - throwing away 13 MP instead of 14 MP.

A 2% difference.

Quote
If I was going to have a grudge, it would be because of something it them taking 4 tries to Canon's lens repair service to fix the IS in a 70-300 IS USM (non-L).

"Yeah we fixed it", "No you haven't, try again." "Fixed it this time.", "Put on a camera and it didn't work, try again." la la la

And with Nikon, that might be <wait 4 weeks> "Yeah we fixed it", "No you haven't, try again."<wait 4 weeks> "Fixed it this time.", "Put on a camera and it didn't work, try again."<wait 4 weeks> la la la

You're assuming that all Canon turn-a-rounds were speedy...

Quote
No, the point of me saying this is because lots of people are arguing that "Canon cameras sell well, so obviously 18MP is enough" or "... so obviously the DR isn't important." In a sense they're right, but it appears that it isn't the IQ that is selling the camera - it is the bells and whistles.

In a sense?  No need for a qualifier there.  As I've stated before, people buy cameras not sensors.  Their reasons for choosing one camera over another are as varied as the people themselves.  Canon recognizes that people buy cameras, not naked sensors, and they design their cameras accordingly.  The fact that they continue to outsell Nikon across the lineup quite clearly indicates that they know what they're doing in terms of camera design (including the sensor). 

Or in other words, Canon seems to be ignoring the photographer and going for the consumer (which kind of agrees with your statement above.)

Quote
Saying 'it isn't the IQ that is selling the camera' is an unrealistic over-generalization.  The problem is that some people seem to suggest that simply because the sensor in a Nikon camera offers a couple of extra stops of DR, that means the IQ of the sensor in a Canon camera is unacceptably poor.

It's not that it is poor but rather that there has been no improvement and it isn't as if there are no problems that need fixing.

AG

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 288
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #145 on: April 11, 2013, 09:19:10 AM »
Wow this thread went off the rails faster than most.

Or in the words of Ron Burgundy...



 ;D
Yes, i shoot video on a DSLR.

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14525
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #146 on: April 11, 2013, 09:34:53 AM »
A 2% difference.

Well, if that's not grasping at straws, what is?   ::)


You're assuming that all Canon turn-a-rounds were speedy...

True.  But Roger Cicala's repair data indicate an average (in the USA) of 6 days for Canon vs. 26 days for Nikon.  Or, since you seem to like percentages, 433% longer for a Nikon repair in the US, on average.


Or in other words, Canon seems to be ignoring the photographer and going for the consumer (which kind of agrees with your statement above.)

Oh, I see.  Consumers don't care about IQ, but Photographers do, so they should all be using Nikon.  Wait, did I say that?  Somehow, I don't think so...

If you think Nikon has better sensor DR because they aren't 'ignoring the photographer', you're being terribly naive.   Canon and Nikon are publically traded companies.  Neither of them 'care about photographers' except insofar as photographers are consumers that buy their products.  Canon and Nikon care about profit.  In some countries (the US being one), it goes beyond caring - publically held compaines are legally obligated to maximize profit.  Canon just seems to be doing a better job at that, based on corporate reports.


It's not that it is poor but rather that there has been no improvement and it isn't as if there are no problems that need fixing.

No, there are problems that you want fixed (and so do I, admittedly).  Important distinction.  But they can clearly outsell Nikon despite those 'problems' so the only voice that matters - the market - has decided there no need to fix anything.
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

dilbert

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2975
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #147 on: April 11, 2013, 09:48:46 AM »
A 2% difference.

Well, if that's not grasping at straws, what is?   ::)

When it's less than 1% or not measurable.

Or in other words, Canon seems to be ignoring the photographer and going for the consumer (which kind of agrees with your statement above.)

Oh, I see.  Consumers don't care about IQ, but Photographers do, so they should all be using Nikon.  Wait, did I say that?  Somehow, I don't think so...

If you think Nikon has better sensor DR because they aren't 'ignoring the photographer', you're being terribly naive.   Canon and Nikon are publically traded companies.  Neither of them 'care about photographers' except insofar as photographers are consumers that buy their products.  Canon and Nikon care about profit.  In some countries (the US being one), it goes beyond caring - publically held compaines are legally obligated to maximize profit.  Canon just seems to be doing a better job at that, based on corporate reports.

Let me put it another way. Nikon is approaching the problem of maximising profit by providing products that give maximum benefit to the photographer that cares about the quality of their photograph in the belief that this is the #1 priority for camera purchases. Canon approaches the problem by adding bells and whistles that attract people whilst delivering a camera with a "good enough" attitude to photography itself.

It's not that it is poor but rather that there has been no improvement and it isn't as if there are no problems that need fixing.

No, there are problems that you want fixed (and so do I, admittedly).  Important distinction.  But they can clearly outsell Nikon despite those 'problems' so the only voice that matters - the market - has decided there no need to fix anything.

Right, because the majority of the people buying the cameras are consumers and not photographers.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #147 on: April 11, 2013, 09:48:46 AM »

neuroanatomist

  • CR GEEK
  • ********
  • Posts: 14525
    • View Profile
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #148 on: April 11, 2013, 09:58:10 AM »
Nikon is approaching the problem of maximising profit by providing products that give maximum benefit to the photographer that cares about the quality of their photograph in the belief that this is the #1 priority for camera purchases.

See, I just knew there was a reason for the oil spatters on the D600 sensor.  Nikon cares about the quality of the photographs. 

Tell me...does that strategy apply to their lenses, too?  If so, why is a Sigma lens an oh-so-significant 2% better?  I suppose because Nikon tried but failed.
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
______________________________
Flickr | TDP Profile/Gear List

unfocused

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 2117
    • View Profile
    • Unfocused: A photo website
Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #149 on: April 11, 2013, 10:30:00 AM »
Right, because the majority of the people buying the cameras are consumers and not photographers.

News flash. The majority of photographers don't dare about the crap being discussed here.
pictures sharp. life not so much. www.unfocusedmg.com

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #149 on: April 11, 2013, 10:30:00 AM »