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Author Topic: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]  (Read 81432 times)

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #135 on: April 11, 2013, 02:48:24 PM »
A 2% difference.

Well, if that's not grasping at straws, what is?   ::)

When it's less than 1% or not measurable.

Or in other words, Canon seems to be ignoring the photographer and going for the consumer (which kind of agrees with your statement above.)

Oh, I see.  Consumers don't care about IQ, but Photographers do, so they should all be using Nikon.  Wait, did I say that?  Somehow, I don't think so...

If you think Nikon has better sensor DR because they aren't 'ignoring the photographer', you're being terribly naive.   Canon and Nikon are publically traded companies.  Neither of them 'care about photographers' except insofar as photographers are consumers that buy their products.  Canon and Nikon care about profit.  In some countries (the US being one), it goes beyond caring - publically held compaines are legally obligated to maximize profit.  Canon just seems to be doing a better job at that, based on corporate reports.

Let me put it another way. Nikon is approaching the problem of maximising profit by providing products that give maximum benefit to the photographer that cares about the quality of their photograph in the belief that this is the #1 priority for camera purchases. Canon approaches the problem by adding bells and whistles that attract people whilst delivering a camera with a "good enough" attitude to photography itself.

It's not that it is poor but rather that there has been no improvement and it isn't as if there are no problems that need fixing.

No, there are problems that you want fixed (and so do I, admittedly).  Important distinction.  But they can clearly outsell Nikon despite those 'problems' so the only voice that matters - the market - has decided there no need to fix anything.

Right, because the majority of the people buying the cameras are consumers and not photographers.

How many nikon shooters do you know and what do they shoot?  Of the nikon shooters I know who shoot weddings, only a few of them have the d800 (and the biggest dislike is the file size, second dislike is that things get mushy after ISO 6400).  Most are shooting the d700, and if they upgrade its to a d3 or a d3s.  Most will say the d800 is a fine camera but the files are much too large - most of them wanted the d800 to be more like the d700, or should I say - the 5d3...modest and easy to manage file sizes and good low light performance.  So I don't think that really fits in with you standpoint of:

"Let me put it another way. Nikon is approaching the problem of maximising profit by providing products that give maximum benefit to the photographer that cares about the quality of their photograph in the belief that this is the #1 priority for camera purchases. Canon approaches the problem by adding bells and whistles that attract people whilst delivering a camera with a "good enough" attitude to photography itself."

I'd put it this way - Nikon is attempting to increase its market share by offering a product that is different than it's competition, it occupies a niche that current cannons can't touch.  It has a WOW factor with the unusally high MP count, which is something that turns heads - and they most likely offered it at a significantly lower profit margin because they are playing catch up.  Canon on the other hand did their research and determined that other features were more important to their users than DR and resolution - high ISO, improved AF, and with the 1dx fps). 

Now that's on the higher end of both companies products ---you brought up the 650d and how you overheard someone say they wanted it because it has a touch screen!  Well, isn't that what the rebel-the xxd market is? 

Even from a professional photgraphers standpoint looking in at my potential clients, big prints are nice but most just want web friendly digital files.  So these bells and whistles that you criticize are exactly what the average upgrading from my phone to a real camera want.  I got scolded here for appearing to be condescending because I  called this out ---fact is most people - nikon buying or canon buying - that are buying these lower level dslr's will most likely be shooting in live mode, auto everything.  Most will find using the OVF odd and weird.  Most will not know what an AF point is.  Most will lose their manual.  Most will have a kit lens and thats that!  Is that a bad thing?  No, because for what most users need it's good enough - whether is an entry level canon, nikon, pentak, olympus, sony, etc ,etc ,etc.  Most of these people want nice pics of their kids in the yard, or at the birthday parties or their school play.  Most will never visit a site like this for more information.  Most will never have heard of DXO, most will not have any clue what a histogram is, most will not view MTF charts....

I get that your disgruntled with canon, but come on man.  Give it a rest...
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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #135 on: April 11, 2013, 02:48:24 PM »

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #136 on: April 11, 2013, 03:02:24 PM »
oh, and news flash ---that big old list of lens performance - the real unfortunate reality is that most of these decisions that we dissect and mull over --- unless your working for a magazine, or shooting for billboards - who is seeing our images?  Our clients, who are generally, normal people. 

I was sitting here with my fiancee, showing her the difference between my 5d3 files 6d files (I rented a 6d), and she could tell no difference (and she has to sit through a lot of showings of my stuff because she's my fiancee). 

Same goes with lenses.  the standard person isn't going to see half the things we see with our images.   Even when you get to fast primes - yeah, they will love the waythe background blurs, but that little difference between the bokeh from a non L prime to an L prime, will they notice that?  Will they say, wow, the bokeh is so creamy and smooth?  No, what will sell the shot is the composition and the feel of the image - and for the client ---- how you interact with the client trumps the IQ.  If you make them laugh, make them feel comfortable, make them laugh - most people don't really like being in front of the lens so if you can get them comfortable that trumps IQ every day of the week. 
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neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #137 on: April 11, 2013, 03:09:00 PM »
... if you can get them comfortable that trumps IQ every day of the week.

Wait just a minute.  You seem to be suggesting that the photographer is an important component of making a good picture.  I hope I'm misinterpreting your statements, because frankly, they're complete heresy around here.  Fall to your knees and worship the Almighty DR of the Exmor Sensor.  That, and only that, will be Salvation for your images.  If you can't cleanly lift 5 stops of shadows, you're a poor excuse for a photographer not to mention a failure as a human being.

 ::)
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Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #138 on: April 11, 2013, 03:11:48 PM »
... if you can get them comfortable that trumps IQ every day of the week.

Wait just a minute.  You seem to be suggesting that the photographer is an important component of making a good picture.  I hope I'm misinterpreting your statements, because frankly, they're complete heresy around here.  Fall to your knees and worship the Almighty DR of the Exmor Sensor.  That, and only that, will be Salvation for your images.  If you can't cleanly lift 5 stops of shadows, you're a poor excuse for a photographer not to mention a failure as a human being.

 ::)

LOL!!!  I forgot where I am...lol.  I retract all of that...because now after a shoot, I send my RAWS to DXO and they map out my images on a graph and that's how my clients pick their keepers...lol
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Don Haines

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #139 on: April 11, 2013, 03:16:54 PM »
Right, because the majority of the people buying the cameras are consumers and not photographers.

ummmm....... ALL photographers are consumers, and all consumers who purchase cameras and take at least one picture are photographers.....
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ecka

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #140 on: April 11, 2013, 04:15:26 PM »
Right, because the majority of the people buying the cameras are consumers and not photographers.

ummmm....... ALL photographers are consumers, and all consumers who purchase cameras and take at least one picture are photographers.....

NO, those are just snapshooters  ;D
The real photographer is a person who actually knows what he is doing  ;)
I've seen a monkey taking pictures of tourists, was it a photographer too?
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Don Haines

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #141 on: April 11, 2013, 05:01:44 PM »
Right, because the majority of the people buying the cameras are consumers and not photographers.

ummmm....... ALL photographers are consumers, and all consumers who purchase cameras and take at least one picture are photographers.....

NO, those are just snapshooters  ;D
The real photographer is a person who actually knows what he is doing  ;)
I've seen a monkey taking pictures of tourists, was it a photographer too?

nobody qualified skill levels.... Pro's, amateurs, snapshooters, enthusiasts, and even (GASP!!!!) people with cell phones are photographers. nobody mentioned if they knew what they were doing or if they are any good at it.... :)
The best camera is the one in your hands

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #141 on: April 11, 2013, 05:01:44 PM »

Chuck Alaimo

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #142 on: April 11, 2013, 05:25:19 PM »
Right, because the majority of the people buying the cameras are consumers and not photographers.

ummmm....... ALL photographers are consumers, and all consumers who purchase cameras and take at least one picture are photographers.....

NO, those are just snapshooters  ;D
The real photographer is a person who actually knows what he is doing  ;)
I've seen a monkey taking pictures of tourists, was it a photographer too?

nobody qualified skill levels.... Pro's, amateurs, snapshooters, enthusiasts, and even (GASP!!!!) people with cell phones are photographers. nobody mentioned if they knew what they were doing or if they are any good at it.... :)

I would think that's part and parcel to the whole debate.  I wouldn't consider anybody who snaps a shot as a "photographer" - just as I would not consider myself to be a "plumber" because I bought a wrench and replaced a gasket on my sink.   Just as I would not consider myself to be a "carpenter" because I put together a table.  Just as I would not consider myself an "auto technician" because I changed my oil by myself.   
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #143 on: April 11, 2013, 05:44:23 PM »
Just as I would not consider myself to be a "carpenter" because I put together a table.   

Damn.  I just put together an IKEA table for the deck.  Guess that means I'll have to cancel that business card order I placed.
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Don Haines

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #144 on: April 11, 2013, 05:48:51 PM »
Right, because the majority of the people buying the cameras are consumers and not photographers.

ummmm....... ALL photographers are consumers, and all consumers who purchase cameras and take at least one picture are photographers.....

NO, those are just snapshooters  ;D
The real photographer is a person who actually knows what he is doing  ;)
I've seen a monkey taking pictures of tourists, was it a photographer too?

nobody qualified skill levels.... Pro's, amateurs, snapshooters, enthusiasts, and even (GASP!!!!) people with cell phones are photographers. nobody mentioned if they knew what they were doing or if they are any good at it.... :)

I would think that's part and parcel to the whole debate.  I wouldn't consider anybody who snaps a shot as a "photographer" - just as I would not consider myself to be a "plumber" because I bought a wrench and replaced a gasket on my sink.   Just as I would not consider myself to be a "carpenter" because I put together a table.  Just as I would not consider myself an "auto technician" because I changed my oil by myself.   

Photographer is a nebulous term. There is no standard definition... there is no certification or levels.... there is no governing body and there is no rating system of specialties. For example, I could be the world's greatest bird photographer and the worst imaginable wedding photographer... I know people so good that they can effortlessly snap off a shot that I would have to take time to prepare for.... and that "snapshooter" would get a better picture than me. I also know "experts" whose photographs are "somewhat less than stellar".

In the absence of standards, like it or not, anyone who uses a camera is a photographer and the question of if they are good or bad comes down to opinion.
The best camera is the one in your hands

ecka

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #145 on: April 11, 2013, 06:48:37 PM »
Right, because the majority of the people buying the cameras are consumers and not photographers.

ummmm....... ALL photographers are consumers, and all consumers who purchase cameras and take at least one picture are photographers.....

NO, those are just snapshooters  ;D
The real photographer is a person who actually knows what he is doing  ;)
I've seen a monkey taking pictures of tourists, was it a photographer too?

nobody qualified skill levels.... Pro's, amateurs, snapshooters, enthusiasts, and even (GASP!!!!) people with cell phones are photographers. nobody mentioned if they knew what they were doing or if they are any good at it.... :)

I would think that's part and parcel to the whole debate.  I wouldn't consider anybody who snaps a shot as a "photographer" - just as I would not consider myself to be a "plumber" because I bought a wrench and replaced a gasket on my sink.   Just as I would not consider myself to be a "carpenter" because I put together a table.  Just as I would not consider myself an "auto technician" because I changed my oil by myself.   

Photographer is a nebulous term. There is no standard definition... there is no certification or levels.... there is no governing body and there is no rating system of specialties. For example, I could be the world's greatest bird photographer and the worst imaginable wedding photographer... I know people so good that they can effortlessly snap off a shot that I would have to take time to prepare for.... and that "snapshooter" would get a better picture than me. I also know "experts" whose photographs are "somewhat less than stellar".

In the absence of standards, like it or not, anyone who uses a camera is a photographer and the question of if they are good or bad comes down to opinion.

Well, I have no problem with calling a photographer whoever is pretending to be one, but it doesn't make their photographs any better. The problem rises when they start asking money for it, just like that monkey  ;D
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Don Haines

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #146 on: April 11, 2013, 07:08:38 PM »

Photographer is a nebulous term. There is no standard definition... there is no certification or levels.... there is no governing body and there is no rating system of specialties. For example, I could be the world's greatest bird photographer and the worst imaginable wedding photographer... I know people so good that they can effortlessly snap off a shot that I would have to take time to prepare for.... and that "snapshooter" would get a better picture than me. I also know "experts" whose photographs are "somewhat less than stellar".

In the absence of standards, like it or not, anyone who uses a camera is a photographer and the question of if they are good or bad comes down to opinion.

Well, I have no problem with calling a photographer whoever is pretending to be one, but it doesn't make their photographs any better. The problem rises when they start asking money for it, just like that monkey  ;D

One of the problems is that it isn't even clear which is the best photograph..... Hypothetical situation.... a cougar is sighted "down by the stream". Neuro, my Neice, and I head off to get a picture.... Neuro with a 1Dx and a 600F4, me with a 60D and a 70-200, and my neice with an iPod. Neuro finds a nice vantage spot and shoots of a couple hundred perfect pictures..... I work my way downstream and get a couple hundred pictures of the cougar nicely framed in front of a waterfall, but because of the distance my pictures are heavily cropped. My neice got bored and waited in the car. When we get back to town and process the pictures the great debate starts.... which is the better picture? Neuro's are definitly sharper and more pixels on target, but mine are more artisticly framed....and while we argue my neice sells the 30 iPod pictures of bigfoot, that she took while waiting in the car, to a tabloid.

So which is better? Technical, artistic, or commercial sucess?
The best camera is the one in your hands

ecka

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #147 on: April 11, 2013, 07:18:21 PM »

Photographer is a nebulous term. There is no standard definition... there is no certification or levels.... there is no governing body and there is no rating system of specialties. For example, I could be the world's greatest bird photographer and the worst imaginable wedding photographer... I know people so good that they can effortlessly snap off a shot that I would have to take time to prepare for.... and that "snapshooter" would get a better picture than me. I also know "experts" whose photographs are "somewhat less than stellar".

In the absence of standards, like it or not, anyone who uses a camera is a photographer and the question of if they are good or bad comes down to opinion.

Well, I have no problem with calling a photographer whoever is pretending to be one, but it doesn't make their photographs any better. The problem rises when they start asking money for it, just like that monkey  ;D

One of the problems is that it isn't even clear which is the best photograph..... Hypothetical situation.... a cougar is sighted "down by the stream". Neuro, my Neice, and I head off to get a picture.... Neuro with a 1Dx and a 600F4, me with a 60D and a 70-200, and my neice with an iPod. Neuro finds a nice vantage spot and shoots of a couple hundred perfect pictures..... I work my way downstream and get a couple hundred pictures of the cougar nicely framed in front of a waterfall, but because of the distance my pictures are heavily cropped. My neice got bored and waited in the car. When we get back to town and process the pictures the great debate starts.... which is the better picture? Neuro's are definitly sharper and more pixels on target, but mine are more artisticly framed....and while we argue my neice sells the 30 iPod pictures of bigfoot, that she took while waiting in the car, to a tabloid.

So which is better? Technical, artistic, or commercial sucess?

That depends on a buyer, I guess.

P.S. So, who was pretending to be a bigfoot, you or Neuro? :)
FF + primes !

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #147 on: April 11, 2013, 07:18:21 PM »

David Hull

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #148 on: April 11, 2013, 09:02:37 PM »
So David, please dont tell me that there are any differences between the two sensor, and now at 12800iso, we all know the difference at base iso and DR.
If you will  look at the rawfiles I can send them to you

I never said that there was no difference.  Don't need raw files, I have looked at RAW files in the past.

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #149 on: April 11, 2013, 10:36:18 PM »

Photographer is a nebulous term. There is no standard definition... there is no certification or levels.... there is no governing body and there is no rating system of specialties. For example, I could be the world's greatest bird photographer and the worst imaginable wedding photographer... I know people so good that they can effortlessly snap off a shot that I would have to take time to prepare for.... and that "snapshooter" would get a better picture than me. I also know "experts" whose photographs are "somewhat less than stellar".

In the absence of standards, like it or not, anyone who uses a camera is a photographer and the question of if they are good or bad comes down to opinion.

Well, I have no problem with calling a photographer whoever is pretending to be one, but it doesn't make their photographs any better. The problem rises when they start asking money for it, just like that monkey  ;D

One of the problems is that it isn't even clear which is the best photograph..... Hypothetical situation.... a cougar is sighted "down by the stream". Neuro, my Neice, and I head off to get a picture.... Neuro with a 1Dx and a 600F4, me with a 60D and a 70-200, and my neice with an iPod. Neuro finds a nice vantage spot and shoots of a couple hundred perfect pictures..... I work my way downstream and get a couple hundred pictures of the cougar nicely framed in front of a waterfall, but because of the distance my pictures are heavily cropped. My neice got bored and waited in the car. When we get back to town and process the pictures the great debate starts.... which is the better picture? Neuro's are definitly sharper and more pixels on target, but mine are more artisticly framed....and while we argue my neice sells the 30 iPod pictures of bigfoot, that she took while waiting in the car, to a tabloid.

So which is better? Technical, artistic, or commercial sucess?

That depends on a buyer, I guess.

P.S. So, who was pretending to be a bigfoot, you or Neuro? :)

And more importantly, why does sasquatches only live in US?

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Re: Canon Announcements on April 23, 2013? [CR2]
« Reply #149 on: April 11, 2013, 10:36:18 PM »