July 25, 2014, 10:31:25 AM

Author Topic: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K  (Read 4889 times)

Canon Rumors

  • Administrator
  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2529
    • View Profile
    • Canon Rumors
NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« on: April 09, 2013, 10:01:40 AM »

Canon USA at NAB 2013

Canon’s focus here at NAB 2013 is definitely 4K acquisition and broadcasting. They have a big theater and ongoing presentations about the benefits of acquiring your content in 4K resolution.


A lot of people, including myself, don’t think 4K will even become a mainstream thing inside peoples homes. The size of screen you’d need to see the difference between 4K and 1080P in your home would eliminate most potential customers. Think of it like a 1080P vs 720P 32″ television, there’s just no discernible difference when viewing 1080P content. Another big issue with 4K in your home is streaming content at that resolution. As on demand internet content services become more popular, there’s only a handful of people in the grand scheme of things that will have the bandwidth necessary to stream 4K resolution reliably.


Acquisition does have a lot of merit. Canon was very much pushing the idea of cropping, zooming and having more options when editing your film. They showed a lot of examples of 4K content being zoomed 200%-300% and outputting to a 1080P signal, and the image was still quite stellar.


Beyond the cost of a 4K display, the workflow with 4K content needs improvement. There is a lot of software and hardware talk here at NAB to correct this area of the equation.


Will we see 4K in a DSLR camera other than Canon EOS-1D C? One day, though I don’t think it will be soon. A drop in price-point for Canon is something that would be welcomed. The $25K+ C500 is a big jump from the $15K C300.


The 4K and 8K resolution is beautiful on the big screen, just don’t expect it to become mainstream in your home. Your local movie theatre is a different story.


Canon EOS C300 $13,999 (Save $2000)


cr


canonrumors.com

canon rumors FORUM

NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« on: April 09, 2013, 10:01:40 AM »

lopicma

  • Rebel SL1
  • ***
  • Posts: 84
    • View Profile
    • Google+ Page
Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2013, 10:24:20 AM »
With all the 4k televisions on display at CES, these new cameras output should look spectacular.
________________________
Mark L.
60D | Rebel XS | Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 | Sigma 150-500mm | Canon 40mm f/2.8 "pancake" | Canon 50mm f/1.8 | Canon 55-250mm | 18-55mm kit lens :(

Martin_A

  • SX50 HS
  • **
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2013, 10:26:02 AM »
Canon, and all the DSLRs manufacturers, are going to have a problem with those BlackMagic products comin'

Even if the launch of the Cinema Camera has shown that it wasnt perfect, they are now offering 4K RAW for 4000$, the price of the 5D Mark III that shoots Full HD H264 !!!

What the fuck does it costs to canon to offer a ProRes record ?

They have the lenses, they have a solid customer base, they have everything to simply kill the market with let's say an intern ProRes recording and a RAW output via HDMI, in a camera that shoots wonderfull still images !!!

How many consumers would care about digital cameras like red, sony, etc... If they could get that for 3000$ on their DSLR ???

I really dont understand...

bsbeamer

  • Power Shot G16
  • **
  • Posts: 31
    • View Profile
Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2013, 10:41:12 AM »
As a post-production professional, the zoom, reposition, crop capability of 4K is what I like most... but the biggest issue is making sure it's in focus initially.  That's the one thing that really can't be "fixed" in post with fantastic results.  The sad reality is that there's STILL a great number of "DP's" that don't realize this and everything they shoot is either a bit soft or focus is off due to constant zooming and not adjusting focus with EF lenses.  Part of this is the tools aren't exactly the best ones for the style of work they're doing, but the other part is total operator error and ignorance.  I'm terrified of the massive cluster of 4K garbage that's going to be shot in the coming months.

The new Blackmagic cameras look to be fantastic on paper.  We'll see when they actually do come to market if the results are just as good.  Either way, Canon (and even RED and Sony) need to face reality and adjust their prices accordingly, or they're going to loose a major piece of the market.  Simply put, the overall market isn't going to continue to support their high prices.  Budgets have been slashed to a fraction of what they once were and post-production in the USA is disappearing at an alarming rate.  Everyone is looking for the most bang for their buck, and the owners/operators/purchasers of equipment are following that lead now too.

Blaze

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2013, 12:36:00 PM »
The size of screen you’d need to see the difference between 4K and 1080P in your home would eliminate most potential customers. Think of it like a 1080P vs 720P 32″ television, there’s just no discernible difference when viewing 1080P content.


1080p vs. 720p is a big difference even on a 32" display. Heck, it's discernible on phones that are under 5". If you can't tell the difference, then you're probably too far away from the screen.

Positron

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 129
    • View Profile
Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2013, 01:06:38 PM »

A lot of people, including myself, don’t think 4K will even become a mainstream thing inside peoples homes.

Another big issue with 4K in your home is streaming content at that resolution.

Acquisition does have a lot of merit. Canon was very much pushing the idea of cropping, zooming and having more options when editing your film.

Beyond the cost of a 4K display, the workflow with 4K content needs improvement.

Will we see 4K in a DSLR camera other than Canon EOS-1D C? One day, though I don’t think it will be soon.

The 4K and 8K resolution is beautiful on the big screen, just don’t expect it to become mainstream in your home.

I wholeheartedly agree with bolded statements, and I love the way 4K looks at the movie theatre; it's truly a huge step up.

I think the italicized statements lack foresight. Yes, right now big-screen 4K TVs cost tens of thousands of dollars, but the fact that they are actually on the shelves now and not just a concept product virtually guarantees that they will fall in price until average consumers can afford them.

How recently was it that people were saying that digital cameras would never drop below $1000? Or more relevantly, that a full-frame compact couldn't be done? These things were science fiction a decade ago, not a century. Technology will continue to improve and saying that 4K won't become mainstream is incredibly shortsighted, because we're talking about technologies that are going to be mature in 5 years, not 50 or 500.

If you told me that teleporters will never exist, I would be skeptical. Never is a long time.


What the f--- does it costs to canon to offer a ProRes record ?


I don't know exactly how much it costs, but seeing as it's a proprietary format owned by Apple, I'd assume licensing it is not cheap. Canon has to gauge whether that cost will add to their bottom line or not, and I guess they determined that it wouldn't. If the number of additional customers who will buy it (and other factors like brand loyalty) doesn't cover the cost of adding it, then it doesn't make any sense to add.

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3284
    • View Profile
Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2013, 01:16:45 PM »
Quote
"A lot of people, including myself, don’t think 4K will even become a mainstream thing inside peoples homes. The size of screen you’d need to see the difference between 4K and 1080P in your home would eliminate most potential customers. Think of it like a 1080P vs 720P 32″ television, there’s just no discernible difference when viewing 1080P content."

Said by the person who doesn't sound like they have seen 4K displays showing true 4k material (even though you seemingly have). The whole you need THIS CRAZY big sized screen tell even notice 1080P or even 720P stuff was always just nonsense too, some of it pushed by TV makers wanting people to sit VERY far back so all sorts of screen defects wouldn't get complained about as much. Look at the distance you can sit in a movie theater or THX recommended distances for home, it's a far cry from TV manufacturer recommended viewing distances (and even at those it doesn't exactly look like looking out a window does it?)! Plus 4k vs 2k is 4x the pixel while 1080p vs 720p is 2x the pixels.

Just think about this, 24" 1920x1200 monitor, running a game, turn off AA and does it look pretty much the same? Or like a jaggy, aliased garbage? How could it look jaggy at 1920x1200 if you can't even tell 1920x720p from 1920x1080p? Look at your HDTV showing 2K and then look outside the windows, BIG difference no (even with one eye closed to eliminate stereo vision)?

2K looks good but it does NOT look like you are there crisp by any means.

Just look at how vastly better a retina iPad looks than the older iPads or lower res tablets. It is night and day. And even with the retina iPads you can still see a touch of jaggies!

After using a retina iPad for a bit then go back to your 1920x1200 24" PC monitor and holy cow does it look like a blocky, grainy mess! THAT shows you how far off 2K is from where vision can go.

In just a year 4k sets already dropped from $20,000 to $4,000. Don't forget that just like maybe 8 years ago a 52" 2K set cost like $10,000 at best and look at what you can get one for now.

Sure it will take time to get lots of 4k content out there but it will arrive in time and why not revel in your own footage or have footage fully future proof if you can manage it?

Compare a 13x19" print next to the view of the same image on a 19" monitor from typical monitor viewing distance and tell me you can't see that the print shows a lot more details.

A lot of cams that do 2k also either give a sharp but digital look or a blurry soft not really 2k resolved look even when putting out to 2k displays.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 01:36:43 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

canon rumors FORUM

Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2013, 01:16:45 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

  • Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *******
  • Posts: 3284
    • View Profile
Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2013, 01:31:58 PM »
Another big issue with 4K in your home is streaming content at that resolution. As on demand internet content services become more popular, there’s only a handful of people in the grand scheme of things that will have the bandwidth necessary to stream 4K resolution reliably.</p>


Another reason why streaming is an unmitigated evil at this point. Heck it doesn't even have the bandwidth to deliver 1080p and high quality audio. Almost all streaming services look and sound like a joke compared to blu-ray and even the very best one is still not there. Plus it is a terrible waster of internet bandwidth. Why do so many people get choked down speeds at popular hours (even in big metro areas it's not uncommon to drop down to 2Mbps internet speeds, only 1/20th of a single top quality blu-ray stream with zero bandwidth let for anyone else in the house at that)? It's all wasted on streaming stuff better delivered, for now, on disc. They tend to never offer various cuts, extras, etc. either. Internet speed is wayyy far away from what we need.

Quote
<p>Will we see 4K in a DSLR camera other than <a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/855962-REG/Canon_EOS_1D_C_EOS_1D_C_4K_Cinema.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296\" target=\"_blank\">Canon EOS-1D C</a>? One day, though I don’t think it will be soon. A drop in price-point for Canon is something that would be welcomed. The $25K+ <a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/855975-REG/Canon_EOS_C500_Cinema_EOS.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296\" target=\"_blank\">C500</a> is a big jump from the $15K <a href=\"http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/839220-REG/Canon_5779B002_C300_Cinema_EOS_Camcorder.html/bi/2466/kbid/3296\" target=\"_blank\">C300</a>.</p>


And this is why Canon appears like they have already dropped the ball. BM is coming out with SUper35 4k for under $4000 soon! This is why the 'trolls' and 'whiners' have been on Canon's case. They coulda had this segment all locked up. Their bean counters are so worried about internal market segmentation and milking this and that away that they will end up letting the whole cow run off in the long (and not even that long) term.

They have so much tech that they sit on and dribble out and milk and yeah that can boost short term but video world has a lot more competition.


Quote
<p>The 4K and 8K resolution is beautiful on the big screen, just don’t expect it to become mainstream in your home. Your local movie theatre is a different story.</p>


In time. And just think how beautiful for editing AND photo display ultra hi-res PC monitor will be too.


« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 01:33:58 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

that1guyy

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 141
    • View Profile
Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2013, 01:32:36 PM »
Sony is coming out with 55inch 4k TVs for $5k. Apple is also rumored to come out with a 4k set. I think prices have come down enough at this point.

But the main hurdle for many is actual 4k content and internet download speeds to handle the 4k. Until that is improved, 4k isn't going anywhere.

9VIII

  • 6D
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
    • View Profile
Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2013, 03:41:27 PM »
A lot of people, including myself, don’t think 4K will even become a mainstream thing inside peoples homes. The size of screen you’d need to see the difference between 4K and 1080P in your home would eliminate most potential customers. Think of it like a 1080P vs 720P 32″ television, there’s just no discernible difference when viewing 1080P content.


It ticks me off when people say stuff like this.
Just because movies are horridly low quality doesn't mean that there's no room for improvement in display technology.

I was shocked when I learned that many hollywood productions are rendered in 2K (almost the same as 1080p). The traditional slow-as-molasses framerate definitely needs to go as well (I understand that a lot of people are put off my high FPS video, but 24fps is technically inferior, we have to move on sometime).

4K should be rapidly adopted (as long as there's enough source material), there's no question it's better, you aren't even coming close to the limits of human vision at 4K. In the long term 8K should be the standard we settle down with, at that resolution people with less than average eyes won't see the full benefit, but the majority should. Though even that won't match the image a good set of eyes produces, 8K is just the point of diminishing returns between bandwidth concerns and practical benefits.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_high_definition_television
NHK is working toward broadcasting 8K@120fps. I agree.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 03:59:07 PM by 9VIII »
-100% RAW-

TheObiJuan

  • SX50 HS
  • **
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2013, 04:07:47 AM »
At CP+ 2013 in Yokohama I watched Shane Hurlbut's “The Ticket”, a short shot on the EOS 1D-C at 4k and was blown away. 

The clarity and detail in skin and hair astounded me. I was 15-20ft from the 60" screen.

4k is a game changer and I very much look forward to the trickle down effect that will result from it.

marvinhello

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 52
  • Canon 1D C user
    • View Profile
Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2013, 06:33:36 AM »
At CP+ 2013 in Yokohama I watched Shane Hurlbut's “The Ticket”, a short shot on the EOS 1D-C at 4k and was blown away. 

The clarity and detail in skin and hair astounded me. I was 15-20ft from the 60" screen.

4k is a game changer and I very much look forward to the trickle down effect that will result from it.

Did you notice the drastic resolution drop in the slowmo shot? it's when the couple ran out from the shop.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: NAB 2013: Canon USA, All About 4K
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2013, 06:33:36 AM »