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Author Topic: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K  (Read 16139 times)

Andy_Hodapp

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 10:56:34 PM »
Let me just get this straight, so it has the same sensor size as the 5D Mkiii and only costs $500 more at there releases and it shoots 4K raw...
Close, with one very important correction: Super 35mm is a film format that is approximately APS-C size.

I was thinking that but then I saw the part about it sharing stuff with the new Leica
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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 10:56:34 PM »

Mantanuska

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2013, 12:35:11 AM »
Interesting, I always thought super 35 was full frame. Looks like its more like APS-C

SpaceGhost

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2013, 12:39:30 AM »
No 60P, no deal.

Sure this has a lot of great items, but 4k is not the only buzzword I care about.

M

Nishi Drew

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2013, 01:08:04 AM »
No 60P, no deal.

Sure this has a lot of great items, but 4k is not the only buzzword I care about.

M

Yeah that's a disappointment, still the Pocket version is very intriguing for the price, 422, lossy RAW and all that DR. 60FPS for the smooth slow mo would be great, but again for that price and for being mFT anyways, the GH3 is an overall stronger package for all sorts of video work.

Nishi Drew

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2013, 01:21:44 AM »
OK...today Blackmagic has hijacked the topic at all of my camera blogs....even my MFT blogs...I am a still shooter and have no desire to shoot video...and not much understanding about it...but from what I have seen the Blackmagic units blow away the 5DIII in the video dept..no contest (correct???).I am just curious...how do Canon's expensive cinema specific cameras hold up to the Blackmagic units???

The Canon Cinema cameras are good, but are they (in comparison to say the BMCC 4K) $2K ~ $6K better? Well, for all the outputs and controls you get the Canons aren't bad, but in terms of dynamic range, uncompressed RAW with pro res 422 (awesome codecs for editing in post) and likely retaining sharp detail with no moire (the previous BMCC doesn't seem to have any issues with that) the BMCC is just so much more awesome, and look now it's got 4K with a super 35mm sensor and it's a global shutter! I don't think any of the Canons have a global shutter, so they will all suffer from skewed images when panning or shooting fast action. And the BMCC  already has an electronic EF mount too so for strict video work there's no reason to get the 5DIII unless stills are a main as well. Which, it is for me sadly, now the 5DIII isn't a slouch for video, it may be soft and not give options for glorious codecs and data output, but people have been using the system like they did with the 5DII with good results, but looks like I will be needing 60FPS at 1080P for upcoming work and neither system cuts it, Panasonic wins the cake with their GH3 again, and the GH2 is still better for all around in that regard!

So, to keep things simple, the 5D line for video is a thing of the past, the Canon Cinema cameras are overpriced for what the competition is delivering (overpriced can be used for many things but in this case it is very relevant). 4K may not have much use as even 720P can live on, but for editing, shooting in 4k and then exporting at 2K or even 1080P could mean near flawless IQ compared to 1080P only cameras, especially if you can edit in uncompressed RAW
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 01:26:37 AM by Nishi Drew »

bvukich

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2013, 01:33:04 AM »
I'm not all that interested in Video (well not at all honestly), but this still is pretty cool.

One thing that really strikes me, is the price.  More precisely the price compared to a 4k display.  You can get three of these for the cost of the cheapest 4k display.   I just find that amazing.

Radiating

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2013, 02:31:56 AM »
Bravo to BlackMagic for showing the big boys how it's done. This is the company that RED Digital Cinema should have been but alas they've become just like all the rest.

Is it possible that they underestimated how expensive it is to innovate?
We have all had conversations about "how cheap the parts for gear are and how come someone doesn't put it together and show the big boys"
When the real world intrudes one finds things are priced where they are for a reason.

Bodies are easy to make, lenses are the hard part.

The problem with Canon is that they jerk their customers around too much with bodies. 18 MP on APS-C for what 4-5 years now? No 4k video on a professional DSLR like the 5D Mark III or the 1DX?

Canon is well known to drag it's feet with innovation, they have lenses and bodies that all their competitors from Zeiss, to Nikon to Sigma to Tamron have positivly nuked.

The 35mm Sigma has 2.5 stops better resolution that the 35mm Canon.

The 50mm Zeiss has 5 stops better resolution than the Canon 50mm 1.4 or 50mm 1.2L.

The Nikon 80-400mm has a 5 stop resolution advantage over the ridiculously old Canon 100-400mm.

The Nikon D800 nukes Canon in the megapixel department, the Sony NEX melts face off the Canon EOS M in every dimension.

How about the 14-24mm f/2.8 too?

Now the Black Magic cameras has mostly demolish Canon's video cameras. Not having RAW video is like not having RAW in photography. Canon's 1DC doesn't do raw video, and neither does Canon's c100 or c300 so for video those are the dinky point and shoots and nowhere near the quality of this camera. Canon's primary serious entry into video is their $25,000 c500, and that camera isn't full frame, it's super 35mm just like the Black Magic 4k. So BMC just released a $4,000 camera that goes toe to toe (and probably beats) Canon's $25,000 camera, which amounts to making the whole Canon cinema line up obsolete.

In fact the only reasons why Canon is still relevant are the 24-70mm f/2.8 II and the 5D Mark III, their supertelephotos and tilt shift lenses.

Don't get me wrong I used to be a huge fan of Canon and loved them and constantly sang their praises... when they actually had innovative products. Now they are just a creaky old rotting corpse that releases overpriced products that are obsolete before they hit shelves. T5i anyone?

Their only saving grace for innovation is the fact that Sigma and Tamron make lenses for them.

Canon is an embarassment and they deserve it for sitting around and developing ridiculous products like the 70-300mm DO, touch screen DSLR's, t5i, a zooming fish eye to cover APS-C and full frame in one lens (wow), their cinema lenses which are L lenses with slight modifications and 3 times the price. 1DC which is just a modified 1DX for twice the price (why did the 1DX not include all the 1DC features?), worthless EOS M that autofocuses like a joke, 18mp sensor with terrible focusing abbility in video mode (no pro video guys even use autofocus).

Canon needs to learn that one thing sells cameras. Good core products that push the bleeding edge of technology. Canon has paid zero attention to their core products in the last 3 years. Even their best body and lens the 5D Mark III and 24-70mm II were both afterthoughts. The 5D Mark III was finished a year before it was released and Canon sat on it, to milk people on 5D Mark II inventory according to official sources, and the 24-70mm II was ONLY released for no other reason than to stop constant 24-70mm I warranty claims due to copy variation and extreme decentering.

Canon's attention to it's core products has been a joke. The only semi decent core product they released in recent memory was the 1DX and then that was gimped so they could sell more cinema products which were obsolete months after they hit shelves with products like the Black Magic cameras.

Canon's product development is a sad mismanaged joke and the writing on the wall is getting ever clearer, especially combined with their new ultra greedy pricing designed to alienate customers.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 02:43:56 AM by Radiating »

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2013, 02:31:56 AM »

gecko

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2013, 03:28:47 AM »
The problem with Canon is that they jerk their customers around too much with bodies. 

Canon is well known to drag it's feet with innovation,

ridiculously old Canon 100-400mm.

The Nikon D800 nukes Canon in the megapixel department, the Sony NEX melts face off the Canon EOS M in every dimension.

Now the Black Magic cameras has mostly demolish Canon's video cameras. Not having RAW video is like not having RAW in photography. Canon's 1DC doesn't do raw video, ........ making the whole Canon cinema line up obsolete.

Now they are just a creaky old rotting corpse that releases overpriced products that are obsolete before they hit shelves.

Canon is an embarassment and they deserve it for sitting around and developing ridiculous products like the 70-300mm DO, touch screen DSLR's, t5i, a zooming fish eye to cover APS-C a..... worthless EOS M that autofocuses like a joke,

Canon's product development is a sad mismanaged joke and the writing on the wall is getting ever clearer, especially combined with their new ultra greedy pricing designed to alienate customers.

Tell us what you really think.
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2013, 03:40:21 AM »
The 35mm Sigma has 2.5 stops better resolution that the 35mm Canon.

The 50mm Zeiss has 5 stops better resolution than the Canon 50mm 1.4 or 50mm 1.2L.

The Nikon 80-400mm has a 5 stop resolution advantage over the ridiculously old Canon 100-400mm.


What do you mean by stops of resolution???

Also I have to say that when I compared a contax zeiss 50 1.4 to my canon 50 1.4 it seemed more or less 100% identical at every f-stop. And what 24-70 is sharper than (or also fully APO as is) the 24-70 II? What from nikon beats 17 T&S or 24 T&S II? Where is there another 70-300L out there? How many years did it take to get even a single 70-200 f/4 IS competitor? Isn't the 70-200 2.8 IS II also the best by a smidge? So aren't they the best in some of the KEY lens categories? super-tele are great too (although the new ones prices are frightful)

Why did Nikon backtrack to such a hideous liveview in the D800 and a couple other recent releases?


Quote
Don't get me wrong I used to be a huge fan of Canon and loved them and constantly sang their praises... when they actually had innovative products. Now they are just a creaky old rotting corpse that releases overpriced products that are obsolete before they hit shelves. T5i anyone?

I did sort of fear this after hearing the absurd answers one of their execs was giving at a press conference back around when the 1Ds3 was released. Stuff about how what??? why do we need to make more FF bodies and add speed or anything we the king, the king supreme, we can sit upon the hill and laugh and milk and milk!!!! were are infinitely ahead of Nikon for FF technology! We are king! We have no need for new products! If by some rare chance Nikon is able to do something we will then react!


Quote
Even their best body and lens the 5D Mark III and 24-70mm II were both afterthoughts. The 5D Mark III was finished a year before it was released and Canon sat on it, to milk people on 5D Mark II inventory according to official sources, and the 24-70mm II was ONLY released for no other reason than to stop constant 24-70mm I warranty claims due to copy variation and extreme decentering.

Where did you hear that about the 5D3? And I really doubt that about the 24-70 II.

Quote
the 1DX and then that was gimped so they could sell more cinema products which were obsolete months after they hit shelves with products like the Black Magic cameras.

yup
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 05:41:27 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

NormanBates

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2013, 04:24:30 AM »
The biggest problem for Canon is not resolution, but codec: they've crippled their cameras into irrelevance

BMD:
$1K: pocket BMC: 10-bit 4:2:2 Prores, compressed 12-bit RAW
$3K: original BMC: 10-bit 4:2:2 Prores, uncompressed 12-bit RAW
$4K: BMC-4K: 10-bit 4:2:2 Prores, compressed 12-bit RAW

Canon:
$1K: 18 Mpix DSLR: 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264
$3K: 5D3: 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264
$6K: 1DX: 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264
$6K: C100: 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264 (could easily do 8-bit 4:2:2 if they wanted)
$12K: 1DC: 8-bit 4:2:0 H.264
$14K: C300: 8-bit 4:2:2 H.264
$30K: C500 with external recorder: 12-bit RAW if you're recording 2K, 10-bit RAW if you want 4K

Basically, if 8-bit color is not enough for you, you can get something better by spending $1K-$4K on a BMD camera, or >$30K on a Canon.

And yes, I've used a BMC, and the image is extremely awesome (of course, the ergonomics and menus could be A LOT better; it doesn't even have a histogram, or onything like that).
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 04:37:04 AM by NormanBates »

infared

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2013, 05:41:33 AM »
Nishi Drew, thanks for taking the time for the explanation..a little tech for me but you are basically confirming my perception that these BM cameras are game changers for many leaving Canon in the dust.  God knows what this means for my precious still camera in the future! LOL!
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cayenne

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2013, 10:14:54 AM »
Can someone give a short primer on MFT lenses/mounts?

What is good/bad about them? What are good lenses? Does canon make MFT lenses?

I'm only familiar with EF lenses so far...wondering what to look for if I take the plunge on that new small BM camera. It says the MFT is powered, is there some adapter that I could put on that to use my Canon EF glass? Would it autofocus? Powered aperture?

What is pricing like on MFT lenses...what is the first one or two focal lengths to get for one?

Thanks in advance,

C

ssrdd

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2013, 11:18:35 AM »
OK...today Blackmagic has hijacked the topic at all of my camera blogs....even my MFT blogs...I am a still shooter and have no desire to shoot video...and not much understanding about it...but from what I have seen the Blackmagic units blow away the 5DIII in the video dept..no contest (correct???).I am just curious...how do Canon's expensive cinema specific cameras hold up to the Blackmagic units???

they r flop from the beginning. now its death is the only choice for canon C cameras.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 11:23:41 AM by ssrdd »

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2013, 11:18:35 AM »

SebastianK

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2013, 11:20:16 AM »
MFT:
Thom Hogan's blog on mirrorless interchangable lens cameras has a lens and camera data base.
Very useful.
http://www.sansmirror.com/

bvukich

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2013, 02:48:22 PM »

The 35mm Sigma has 2.5 stops better resolution that the 35mm Canon.

The 50mm Zeiss has 5 stops better resolution than the Canon 50mm 1.4 or 50mm 1.2L.

The Nikon 80-400mm has a 5 stop resolution advantage over the ridiculously old Canon 100-400mm.


Stops?  You keep using that word...  I don't think it means what you think it means.

I can only really comment on the 80-400 (new version, old was not even worth comparing) vs 100-400.  The Nikon is sharper at the wide end in the center, and the Canon is sharper at the long end in the center.  They're comparable in the corners at all focal lengths.

If you're using a lens like this, long end performance is probably the most important. But YMMV.

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Re: The Blackmagic Production Camera 4K
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2013, 02:48:22 PM »