December 18, 2014, 07:44:55 AM

Author Topic: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8  (Read 14784 times)

Jack Douglas

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2013, 11:29:34 AM »
Sorry, being new to this I didn't realize that I actually was doing it.  With hindsight it's obvious enough and it was poor judgment on my part.

How does one make contact with someone who's posted something that is close to what you're interested in but not relevant to that post specifically?

Any other reprimands/admonishments humbly accepted  :-[

Jack
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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2013, 11:29:34 AM »

bdunbar79

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2013, 11:46:39 AM »
Wow, talk about hijacking a thread! Seems this one has been more kidnapped than hijacked!

bdunbar79 - have you fixed your issue?

I know in the past you have said that you like to turn AF off. Did you turn it off for both?

Also are you sure you did not change the AF points at all?

I had an issue recently where I had forgotten that I had changed a setting and I just could not get the 1D X to do what I wanted. I eventually remembered I had change a setting, changed it back and all was well.

Thanks.

No I have AF on at all times.  I turn IS off and on periodically.  I had the same AF point activated as well. 

I'm thinking it's DOF.  I looked up the DOF calculator and to get equivalent DOF as the 300 f/2.8L at f/2.8, the 400 f/2.8L would have to be at f/5.  So it's not going to be easy to fix, shooting runners coming straight at you.  Side shots it's never a problem but straight on or even at an angle straight on it's difficult.  Since the 300 has twice the DOF at f/2.8, that's probably why I never missed with that lens. 

Maybe this is my problem?  Thanks for all of your help.
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privatebydesign

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2013, 12:46:53 PM »
An important thing to remember about dof, if your subject is the same size in the frame the dof is the same regardless of lens focal length. The perspective is different, but the dof is constant. http://luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/dof2.shtml

Now if you are shooting at the same distance the 400 dof at any given aperture is less, of course, but in your original post you said this "I did realize of course that with the 300 the runners are closer to me when I fire the shutter, vs. the 400, which could matter.  "

Also, it is probably the CR forum re-size algorithm but neither of your shots look sharp, however, if on the "missed" shots an adjacent runner etc does have critical sharpness then you are almost certainly looking at a non optimal AF setting for the situation or a technique issue.

This isn't a personal attack, I have been using the 300 for years for surfing and yacht racing, my critically sharp keeper rate for those is 90-95%, even working from a moving boat. I have recently started doing dog herding trials and my critically sharp keeper rate is way down and I am not even moving! Changing lens can be just as dramatic a difference.

Keep improving your technique, I still am after 30 years, and play with the myriad of AF settings the 1DX has, Sportsshooter.com sometimes have people post their complete AF settings for a sport, I know the Sports Illustrated standard 1D MkIII/IV settings were published to give people starting points for different events. If you are not a member join, and ask some questions there, some of those guys really know their AF settings.

CarlTN

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2013, 01:06:31 PM »
Jack, sounds like a good idea, I certainly am interested in those T/C combinations with that lens!

Privatebydesign, excellent post!

bdunbar, sorry we deviated from your subject.

applecider

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2013, 03:19:01 PM »
Jack shooting with the big whites especially with extenders demands some attention to technique if you want to print tack sharp images.  I learned this the hard way

As noted in previous posts one must;

-pay attention to depth of field, its a camera lens not magic

-have realistic lighting expectations even with IS consider keeping shutter speeds above at least the length of the lens don't be afraid to raise iso to 800-1000 or even more esp with the 6D to keep shutter speeds high enough

-use a tripod whenever practical

-consider using live view and shutter lock up, moon pictures benefit from this a lot

-It would be helpful to me at least if when you post for help you include your shot settings.

-Read some of the successful long lens shooters like Art Morris and CR's Gary Samples, Art at least does not expect every shot to turn out.

Your squirrel shot seems to have had several things against it starting with a shallow depth of field, and a cluttered view with branches in front of the squirrel too many things to focus on.  The tree shot looks fine to me except an area in-between the first and second big branches from the ground there is a foggy area? there.

Here are two of mine handheld with 300 2.8 ii with 1.4iii  shot at f5.6 1/1600 iso 1000 just to show what that lens combo can do.  The stationary wood duck is plenty sharp to me maybe improve able with lower iso.  The second shows I think the depth of field, and perhaps a slightly slow shutter speed giving the wing tips blur (not really a bad thing).  These were the best of probably five each so four throw aways per keeper, some for composition as well as technique.
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CarlTN

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2013, 04:32:17 AM »
Applecider, those are quite nice, and your advice is excellent.  You're lucky that you can shoot wood ducks in mid day light.  The only time they come out around here, is late dusk and early dawn.  With a few exceptions, here's one March a year ago.  It was still very late afternoon light.  A rented 400 f/5.6 prime on my 50D, hand held.  Cropped 50%, but then scaled down about 70%.  I like my new 6D much better, but I really need a ~600mm lens to go with it, for birds.  I've gotten some decent bird shots recently with a 120-400 zoom.  It helps a lot if I can get close, obviously.

Again, this is off the original topic, so apologies to bdunbar79.

bdunbar79

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2013, 11:57:25 AM »
No it's fine.  All discussion is open.  I just asked because I had shot soccer and football with the 400 and hadn't had the trouble I am with track.  Thanks.
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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2013, 11:57:25 AM »

applecider

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2013, 10:58:45 PM »
Carl thank you for your kind words. The woodies were at a park and if not tame then less wild. And a little secret better Beamer is her name.  Gains maybe a stop or so, and cuts the shadow areas.  Don't think I mentioned that before.
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kaihp

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2013, 10:05:31 PM »
I did realize of course that with the 300 the runners are closer to me when I fire the shutter, vs. the 400, which could matter. 

Is DOF (f/2.8 is pretty thin) more difficult to manage at longer focal lengths?
bdunbar79,

Just how closer were the runners when you used the 300mm?

Assuming that you want the subject to fill approximately the same amount of the frame, you're likely to shoot at, say, 30ft with the 300mm but at 40ft with the 400mm. And if you do that, you get the same DOF from those two combinations (6").

BTW, I think you've just explained why I've had problems in getting tack-sharp images shooting motorcyclists on a track, when using my 400mm too :D

CarlTN

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2013, 03:05:03 AM »
Ok, no problem bdunbar79.  Am I to assume that the problem with your slow focus...is that your 400mm f/2.8, simply focuses slower than the 300?  It seems like it might, if the focus elements are heavier...there would be more mass and inertia involved, especially during servo autofocus.  Or it's possible these elements aren't that much different in size...I don't know.  It might just be the efficiency of the motors that move the elements, is better with those found in the 300 v1, than with the 400 v1. 

And Bdunbar79, this might sound silly, but...does the 1DX allow for exposure compensation in manual mode (like for when you leave ISO in "auto")?  Seems like that would come in handy.  I don't like not being able to compensate, when I know the image has too many aggressive highlights, or if it's the opposite, with an overall lack of contrast.

Applecider, you're quite welcome.  Interesting that you're using a better beamer there.  Yes, I would say those ducks must be quite tame...if they're not only in a "people park" in daylight, but also will tolerate a better beamer firing at them, haha.  It must be like a walk on the red carpet for them!  Makes me want to pet one.  We had pet Mallard ducks, when I was growing up.

And privatebydesign, sportsshooter.com is an excellent suggestion.  First I've heard of that site.  If they have any advice for the "lesser" full frame cameras, that might help me.


bdunbar79

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2013, 04:45:04 PM »
Hey guys,

I shot track this weekend at the Jesse Owens Classic for AU, Denison, Eastern Kentucky, and Michigan State.  I didn't back down and dove right in with the 400mm v1 anyways, and made some changes in my autofocus settings and technique.  I will have those results tonight. 

I'm not sure if the 400 focuses slow, but it definitely does "slower" vs. the 300.  I'm serious, as I've noticed this even before you asked.  I did shoot some of the runners the SAME distance as with my 300 just to see, and then filled the frame, and had the same trouble with both.  I made some changes, however, which I'll explain. 

I went back to AF 101 and just used a single point, one vertical position above center, and two vertical positions if needed.  I then locked onto the runners face, and did so on the right edge of the face, and sort of let the face come into the AF point just a slight bit more before firing the shutter.  The hit rate went up.  I also changed to tracking case #2, instead of using 2, 5, and 6.  Not sure if this makes sense, but again, the hit rate is signficantly higher than last week.

You can do EC with auto ISO with the 1DX, however, you have to shoot in Tv or Av mode.  You can fool it into doing the shutter and aperture you want, by setting upper and lower limits on each.  Then just turn the dial to + or - whatever you want.

An example.  The 70-200 f/2.8L II IS lens widest is f/2.8.  Set the 1DX to Tv mode, at 1/500s, and EC to +2/3.  Then sit max aperture to f/1.0, and min to f/2.8.  ISO is auto.  You force the aperture to be at f/2.8 at all times.  Of course if you want a narrower aperture, it can get tricky.  The short answer is no, and the long asterisk answer is yes, sort of.

Thanks for the help everyone.  I feel as though I gained enough to start fixing my problems.  Again, thanks.
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kaihp

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2013, 09:34:40 PM »
I'm not sure if the 400 focuses slow, but it definitely does "slower" vs. the 300.  I'm serious, as I've noticed this even before you asked.

I think you're right, that the 300mm focuses faster than the 400mm. The 400mm is no dog, but I remember being surprised at how much quicker the AF of the 300mm felt, when I played with it some time ago.
I can't recall which body I used, but it could be on my old 50D (your 1Dx can drive the AF motor faster due to the higher battery voltage).

bdunbar79

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2013, 11:28:42 PM »
The 400 v1 definitely focuses slower than the 300 v1, even on the 1Dx.  The 400 is much more difficult to use.  I've learned that in servo mode with the 400, if you don't specifically focus on the athlete's face, especially at wider apertures, you're not getting it as sharp as the 300. 
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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2013, 11:28:42 PM »

eml58

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2013, 12:02:19 AM »
The 400 v1 definitely focuses slower than the 300 v1, even on the 1Dx.  The 400 is much more difficult to use.  I've learned that in servo mode with the 400, if you don't specifically focus on the athlete's face, especially at wider apertures, you're not getting it as sharp as the 300.

Yes, my own experience tells me that as well, the 300 focuses much faster than the 400 or the 600, I did have all 3 Lenses into Canon Singapore for the new Firmware Upgrade, saw some improvement for sure, less OOF shots, but for what ever reasons the 300 outshines the 400, that's not to say the 400 isn't an amazing Lens, it is, but that 300f/2.8 L V2, Magic in a white Tube.
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eml58

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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2013, 12:04:19 AM »
The 400 v1 definitely focuses slower than the 300 v1, even on the 1Dx.  The 400 is much more difficult to use.  I've learned that in servo mode with the 400, if you don't specifically focus on the athlete's face, especially at wider apertures, you're not getting it as sharp as the 300.

Yes, my own experience tells me that as well, the 300 focuses much faster than the 400 or the 600, I did have all 3 Lenses into Canon Singapore for the new Firmware Upgrade, saw some improvement for sure, less OOF shots, but for what ever reasons the 300 outshines the 400, that's not to say the 400 isn't an amazing Lens, it is, but that 300f/2.8 L V2, Magic in a white Tube.

Sorry Guys, wasn't concentrating, I see your discussing V1, not V2, so the Firmware Upgrade may not apply.
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Re: 300 f/2.8L and 400 f/2.8 at f/2.8
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2013, 12:04:19 AM »